GYMN-L Digest - 28 Aug 1995 to 29 Aug 1995

There are 33 messages totalling 961 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. height and weight (3)
2. German Masters (Men) 1995
3. Gymn on "The Whole Internet Catalog"
4. Women AA (Univ. Games) (3)
5. Gymn in Press?
6. UMass Alumni
7. Ginger (2)
8. Devil's Advocate (2)
9. Foreign gymnast competing NCAA's (9)
10. University of Michigan Gymnasts
11. WUG (3)
12. response re: weight
13. College Gymnasts
14. Re[2]: Women AA (Univ. Games)
15. Intro
16. Why they peak late....
17. NCAA

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:55:17 EST
From: ***@ABBSMTP.ABB.COM
Subject: Re: height and weight

>I agree with Jeff and others about height and weight. What is the point of
>saying it, and do you hear it in other sports? Imagine if you are a young
>girl and your height and weight is being broadcast on national television!
> That in itself is a tremendous pressure to be smaller and lighter.
>

I guess that all reporters have access to a certain information system
containing all kinds of info about the performing gymnasts. So, if they do
not know anything interesting to say, or they just don't know what the hell
they are talking, and perhaps they are being paid by the number of comments
they make, they just quote some facts from the info database. No harm done.
It's just that the organizers should not present that information if it is
that terrible.

Robin.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:51:47 WET
From: ***@VNET.ATEA.BE
Subject: Re: German Masters (Men) 1995

>
> Deutsche Meisterschaft (German Masters?) 1995
> =============================================
>
Not really. 'Meister' could be translated as 'Master', but in this context
it just means 'Champion'. Therefor 'DM' or 'Deutsche Meisterschaft' just
means 'German Championship', i.e. German Nationals.
While I'm at it, I'll also give you the translation of the other German words.
'Kunst'='Art' --> 'Kunstturnen' = 'Artistic Gymnastics'
'Manner' = 'Men'
'Ergebnis(se)'='Result(s)'
'WM'='Weltmeisterschaft'='Worlds' (Sabae)

He also had a question about the meaning of the two results lists.
>
> [ so what does this mean since Kharkov is in one of the list and not in
> the other... probably the latter list is the worlds qualificaton standings ]
>
I think the first one is the list of results from the German national
championships itself (perhaps only the final round ?), whilst the other
one is some kind of ranking to decide which gymnast will take part in Sabae.
I have no clue on how they made this ranking. Apparently these scores are the
sum of two rounds. Compulsories + optionals ? Preliminary + final round ?
Two different meets ? I don't know.
I still hope I've been of some help.

Happy Gymnastics to you all,

Erik.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 06:06:49 -0600
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Gymn on "The Whole Internet Catalog"

Some of you may be familiar with the Whole Internet Catalog from GNN.
Today they added a link to the Gymn WWW pages. Cool!

http://gnn.com/wic/index.html

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:52:28 -0400
From: ***@PANIX.COM
Subject: Women AA (Univ. Games)

These results are from the official web page, so it seems that AP was
correct:

Women's AA, '95 University Games, Fukuoka, Japan

1. SHULGA,O. (UKR) 9.387 9.700 9.500 9.600 38.187
2. LICHEY,K. (USA) 9.450 9.700 9.550 9.400 38.100
3. GUAN,Yuqing (CHN) 9.537 9.525 9.600 9.425 38.087
4. KALINIINA,N. (UKR) 9.550 9.775 9.325 9.425 38.075
5. YURKINA,O. (BLR) 9.412 9.750 9.000 9.700 37.862
5. YUAN,Kexia (CHN) 9.512 9.625 9.325 9.400 37.862
7. YURKINA,Y. (BLR) 9.350 9.675 9.100 9.200 37.325
8. MIURA,H. (JPN) 9.550 9.725 8.600 9.425 37.300
9. OVARY,E. (HUN) 9.587 9.325 8.850 9.525 37.287
10. KINCLOVA,P. (CZE) 9.075 9.275 9.325 9.325 37.000
11. CAVAZOS,J. (MEX) 8.812 9.550 9.100 9.525 36.987
12. HORNBEEK,H. (USA) 9.587 8.875 9.175 9.325 36.962
13. HAN,Na Jung (KOR) 9.200 9.350 9.200 9.100 36.850
14. WELLER,G. (GER) 9.475 9.200 8.950 9.000 36.625
15. NIKITENKO,T. (UKR) 8.912 9.550 9.025 9.125 36.612
16. POSTAVETS,O. (RUS) 9.300 9.800 8.500 8.875 36.475
17. SEO,Kyoko (JPN) 9.500 9.275 8.800 8.750 36.325
18. KUDILKOVA,K. (CZE) 9.562 8.500 8.900 9.300 36.262
19. SIVOVOL,O. (RUS) 9.562 8.025 9.100 9.525 36.212
20. GOLOUB,I. (RUS) 9.475 8.925 8.525 9.175 36.100
21. BOHMEROVA,L. (SVK) 9.062 9.300 8.500 9.050 35.912
22. GUISE,K. (USA) 9.062 9.450 8.300 8.750 35.562
23. BAIK,S. (KOR) 9.037 9.150 8.150 9.000 35.337
24. ISOKANE,Y. (JPN) 9.125 9.200 8.400 8.575 35.300

Debbie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 06:59:24 -0600
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Gymn in Press?

Have you ever seen Gymn mentioned in a magazine? I am trying to
compile a list of all the times that Gymn has been mentioned in print
media.

The current list is:

Technique (USA Gymnastics) [article about various online services for
gymnastics, by myself]

Gym Stars (produced in Great Britain) [blurb about Gymn in
"Springboard", by editor]

Gymnast (BAGA) [mention in the editor's column]

"The Gymnastics Insider" (collegiate Women's newsletter, USA) [blurb
about Gymn by Ron DuPont, Jr.]

Salto (Belgium Gymnastics Federation) [mentioned in Erik Laurent's
Gymnaestrada article last month]

Please respond to me with direct email. If there are any to add to
this list, I'll post a revised one to Gymn when it's complete.

Rachele

ps Gymn is over 500 subscribers now.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:56:55 -0400
From: ***@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU
Subject: UMass Alumni

Okay, I promise not to post again about this unless my email address
changes, which unfortunately is quite possible. There are a handful of
you out there who are UMass Alumni, and hopefully you have kept in touch
with your UMass Gymnastics friends or teammates as the case may be. I am
back at UMass as an employee now, and am trying to find Gymnastics
Alumni. Please email me (even if you have before, I have been moving
quite a bit and have missplaced my email address list) if you are an alum
or know of any. If you know alumni who do not have internet access, I am
also posting my office address.

Thanks! I look forward to hearing from you.

Erica

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:19:22 -0400
From: ***@PHARM.MED.UPENN.EDU
Subject: Re: Women AA (Univ. Games)

I just thought it would be interesting to check to see what the score
differences are between an NCAA meet and an International meet. I found
Kristen Guise from Florida on the list and the scores are different:

3. Guise, K. 9.894 9.919 9.9 9.9 39.506 AA (NCAA-average)
> 22. GUISE,K. (USA) 9.062 9.450 8.300 8.750 35.562

Makes one wonder how well these high scores in the NCAA truly reflect the
gymnastics being done when compared to the international level. Maybe the
NCAA should make the scoring a little tougher so the NCAA women can
determine if they really do want to enter the international competitions
with the compulsories being dropped.

Mayland

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:42:21 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Ginger

Is their a difference between a ginger and a piked ginger? Or is it just like
saying a double back or a double tuck. Thanks!! Hope I spelled it right!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:02:39 -0500
From: ***@TNTECH.EDU
Subject: Devil's Advocate

Let me play devil's advocate here for a minute. So many of you have said that
you are tired of hearing about the issue of age in gymnastics broadcast. One
respondent said that age didn't matter. Unfortunately, age does make a
difference and to discount it would be irresponsible. Look at the facts. How
many gymnasts do you know who have still been able to compete at an
international level above the age of 18? How many gymnasts can you find who
are doing their *best* gymnastics on an international level over the age of 18?
Not too many I suspect (I can only think of a few, some of which would be
considered "late bloomers" by gymnastics standards). The real issue is
determining why age is such a factor in a gymnast's "demise." Is it purely
biological, is it more physcial (routine wear and tear on the body), is it
psychological, or is it that gymnasts want to move on to other things in life
(like college, coaching, or another career)? A combination of all of the above
I suspect.

We may be annoyed by the references to age on TV broadcasts, but that is what
interests the general public. They like to see teenagers excelling and, to the
average fan, an eighteen or nineteen year old international gymnast is old.
I'm not sure that "old" is a put-down; rather, I think people are suprised that
someone at a "non-traditional" gymnastics age is still competing at such a
level.

Issue two: height and weight. What's the big deal? Listing height and weight
is common to a lot of sports. Football comes to mind as well as basketball (at
least height). I didn't mind it at all when I played ball. Is it necessarily
relevant when it comes to gymnastics? I doubt it. Certainly not weight.
However, for a TV viewer, knowing someone's height can definitely help one to
understand one's performance. Certainly, height differences will cause
differences in choreography, the "look" of the trick performed, and, in some
cases the difficulty of mastering the trick. I know that many teenage girls
are self-conscious about weight. However, that's one of the things you have to
live with when you are in the limelight. To think that the mear mention of
weight and height on TV causes a gymnasts to starve herself or put cement
blocks on her head to stunt growth is inaccurate at best. Good coaching
helps prevent obsesssions with things that can't be controlled (height) or that
must be controlled rationally (weight).

Just my opinion,
Mike

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:39:01 -0400
From: ***@A1.CSOC.UMC.DUPONT.COM
Subject: Re: Ginger


>Subject: Ginger
>
>Is their a difference between a ginger and a piked ginger?

Of course there is. A piked ginger is actually more like a maryann.

Sorry, but I just HAD to. ;)

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:43:19 CDT
From: ***@UA1VM.UA.EDU
Subject: Foreign gymnast competing NCAA's

Time for a new topic. Should foreign-born gymnasts be actively recruited
to compete here? Lissenko and Kalanina were originally offered scholarships
by Maryland. My sister says its bad for US collegiate programs. I say its
good. Your views? How about Rukhina? Do you have an opinion?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:48:52 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: Re: height and weight

Th BIG difference is that a reporter who writes for the AP and gets in a few
newspapers gets minimum coverage. Most people don't necessarily read info
in newspapers about gymnastics. My point is that the NETWORKS, particularly
during the Olympics, REPEATEDLY tell us this data via the little indicators
they flash on the screen to tell you what country they are from and I can
still rememeber John Tesh (oh no-here we go again) tell using Shannon Miller's
weight and height (incorrectly, too) again and again.


There is NO need for this. We NEVER hear about tennis players or LPGA
members' weight and heoght. Its all part of the "pixie" image the networks
use to get ratings.


It would be interesting if I could see the 1968 Olympics (i.e., pre-Olga) and
see if the weight and height was a big issue (or even told to the viewers).

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:46:02 -0400
From: ***@UMICH.EDU
Subject: Re: Women AA (Univ. Games)

You make a good point, but as a numbers major, let me make one point.

As we all know in qymnastics, mistakes occur, people fall off apparatus' etc.
This comparison can be deceiving..Guise could have hit all of her
routines at NCAA's and could of had an unfortunate Univ.Games...
It is important to make everyone aware of the circumstances of those
scores and state them with the numbers to accurately show a comparison.

This is in no way to insult Mayland. So please do not interpret it as such.
Keep an open mind everyone - you never know the talent of a college gymnast.

On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Mayland wrote:

> I just thought it would be interesting to check to see what the score
> differences are between an NCAA meet and an International meet. I found
> Kristen Guise from Florida on the list and the scores are different:
>
> 3. Guise, K. 9.894 9.919 9.9 9.9 39.506 AA
(NCAA-average)
> > 22. GUISE,K. (USA) 9.062 9.450 8.300 8.750 35.562
>
> Makes one wonder how well these high scores in the NCAA truly reflect the
> gymnastics being done when compared to the international level. Maybe the
> NCAA should make the scoring a little tougher so the NCAA women can
> determine if they really do want to enter the international competitions
> with the compulsories being dropped.
>
> Mayland
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:49:54 -0400
From: ***@UMICH.EDU
Subject: University of Michigan Gymnasts

Hi all-

I am currently an RA at UM and was pleasantly surprised to meet two of
our new gymnasts: Kathleen Burke and Kristin Duff. Does anyone know
which gymns they came from?
They are going to be great additions to our team.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:50:00 CDT
From: ***@PROCTR.CBA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: WUG

Speaking of the score's (Kristen Guise's ect...), they didn't use the
Collegiate rules (J.O. rules). At least I know they didn't at the
World University Games Trials. So, naturally, the scores are going
to be lower.

Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:58:08 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: response re: weight

In a previous message Mike wrote:

>Issue two: height and weight. What's the big deal? Listing height and
weight
>is common to a lot of sports. Football comes to mind as well as basketball
(at
>least height). I didn't mind it at all when I played ball.

I think it's a bigger deal when you're dealing with a population that is so
susceptible to obsession with weight (pre-adolescent and adolescent girls who
are dealing with self-esteem at just this age in a way that boys don't) than
it is when you're dealing with other sports, or boys/men in general. I read
about a study that showed that eating disorders are prevalent in a variety of
women's college sports, but gymnastics was definitely one of the most
seriously affected, if not the most. And this starts long before college, I
imagine. I'd be curious to know if there are any male gymnasts out there who
feel they are pressured to be thinner, or who feel it affects their
self-esteem.

>Is it necessarily relevant when it comes to gymnastics? I doubt it.
Certainly not >weight. However, for a TV viewer, knowing someone's height
can definitely help one to
>understand one's performance. Certainly, height differences will cause
>differences in choreography, the "look" of the trick performed, and, in some
>cases the difficulty of mastering the trick.

This could be true...it's interesting to see the different ways that taller
girls approach their gymnastics.

>I know that many teenage girls are self-conscious about weight. However,
that's one >of the things you have to live with when you are in the
limelight.

The question is: why? Why does being in the limelight have to mean feeling
pressured about your weight? If society or the gymnastics world in general
were more accepting and appreciative about the appearance and even perhaps
advantages of a woman's (vs. girl's) body in life or sports, maybe the
pressure would be less, in or out of the limelight.

>To think that the mear mention of weight and height on TV causes a gymnasts
to >starve herself or put cement blocks on her head to stunt growth is
inaccurate at best.

This is true. But I doubt it helps when combined with many other factors.

>Good coaching helps prevent obsesssions with things that can't be
controlled (height) >or that must be controlled rationally (weight).

I agree. Unfortunately we seem to hear a lot of stories about coaches who do
pressure kids about weight in gymnastics. I'm sure there are many who don't,
though (I hope!).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:44:37 -0400
From: ***@PHARM.MED.UPENN.EDU
Subject: Re: Foreign gymnast competing NCAA's

It has been done many many times -- I can list Penn State men & a few
others, I don't know about women's teams
Great Britian - Terry Barlett, Ian Shelley, Jamie Downer, Karl Abraham
Brazil - Marcelo Ribero
Israel - Danny Akerman, Ofri Porat
Spain - Miguel Rubio, Alfonso Rodriguez

I am sure that many women have been from foreign countries also.

Mayland


> Time for a new topic. Should foreign-born gymnasts be actively recruited
>to compete here? Lissenko and Kalanina were originally offered scholarships
>by Maryland. My sister says its bad for US collegiate programs. I say its
>good. Your views? How about Rukhina? Do you have an opinion?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:10:17 CDT
From: ***@PROCTR.CBA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Foreign gymnast competing NCAA's

There are many women gymnasts past and present that have competed in
NCAA. A lot of Canadians, especially, who have competed for U of
Florida. There are a few at LSU and Lori Strong is at Georgia. I
don't see anything wrong with it. It's just like any other sport.
Foreigners are recruited for everything, especially, tennis, swimming
and diving, etc....

Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:59:15 -0700
From: ***@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Re: Foreign gymnast competing NCAA's

> Time for a new topic. Should foreign-born gymnasts be actively recruited
> to compete here? Lissenko and Kalanina were originally offered scholarships
> by Maryland. My sister says its bad for US collegiate programs. I say its
> good. Your views? How about Rukhina? Do you have an opinion?
>

Why would it be bad for foreign-born gymnasts coming here? They are just
like anybody else that are offered scholarships-they can be an asset to
the team. It is also a good experience for the gymnasts. They get to
leave their own country and try a new one. The US gymnasts get to meet
people different from themselves, see different workout styles, and have
somebody to look up to. I like the idea of foreign-born gymnasts going
to US colleges.
Corrie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:05:30 -0700
From: ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: Foreign gymnast competing NCAA's

I think it is a good idea for gymnasts to be recuitred to the US for
NCAA teams. They do it for other sports. Also it gives the gymnasts a
good education while they still get to stick with gymnastics longer.
Just my opinion! Bye!

Margi :)
and
Mardi ;)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:17:05 -0400
From: ***@UMICH.EDU
Subject: Re: Foreign gymnast competing NCAA's

Regarding your question, I think it would help the foreign gymnasts stay
in the sport and further their education. However, on the other hand,
many level 9 and 10 gymnasts are given college scholarships and as a
result are given a great opportunity to improve their skills and compete
in a new environment.
I am not sure if it is simply good or bad..it depends on the situation.
What do you all think?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:05:43 -0500
From: ***@TNTECH.EDU
Subject: College Gymnasts

I guess I feel talkative today.

First, I believe that we should allow foreign gymnasts to compete at the
collegiate level in the U.S. and on scholarship at that. Does it limit
scholarships for US students? Yes, to a point. However, don't we really want
the best athletes competing? I, for one, want to continue to see relatively
high quality gymnastics at the college level. I also think that foreign
gymnasts could contribute much to their team, their teammates, and their
schools in and outside of the gym (cultural diversity at its best!)

Considering how many foreign athletes hold scholarships in other NCAA sports, I
think it would be hypocritical to limit or prohibit them in gymnastics. Look
at sports like men's and women's tennis. Schools like Ole Miss and Mississippi
State have tennis teams that are almost entirely composed of foreign athletes.
The only thing that I am against is bringing in "ringers" for the season whose
only purpose is to win championships (a la the Australian pitcher from
Australia who enrolled at UCLA for one semester to help them win the national
champsionship). That type of behavior should not be allowed.

I also have to defend Kristen Guise. Her scores were very low and I can only
assume that they were so because she had fall on the two events. Granted, NCAA
scores are inflated. However, if you've ever watched NCAA gymnasts, you know
that they really are quite good. They enjoy performing and do so at a
relatively high level. Most of the big teams are loaded with former elite
level gymnasts. I have had the opportunity to watch Guise compete at Florida
for the last three years and she definitely has talent. I only wish she would
have fared a little better at UGC. She is a perfectionist and I know she is
kicking herself right now.

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 17:39:00 -0400
From: ***@PHARM.MED.UPENN.EDU
Subject: Re: WUG

>
>>Shawn said ....
>
>>Speaking of the score's (Kristen Guise's ect...), they didn't use the
>>Collegiate rules (J.O. rules). At least I know they didn't at the
>>World University Games Trials. So, naturally, the scores are going
>>to be lower.
>
>
>
>
>Yeah, that was what I was kinda implying, that maybe the collegiate
>scoring (J.O. rules) need to be looked at for the women's. That their
>scores are toooo high to give the women a true reflection of where they
>would stand in international competition now that the compulsories are
>being dropped and there will be more opportunity for the collegiate
>(female) gymnast to be competing in the international meets. It gets a
>little tedious to have more than 10 women averaging above a 9.9 in the
>NCAA, especially when they compete at something like the WUG and get low
>9.0's and high 8.0's. I am not saying the NCAA should change over to FIG,
>but maybe, just maybe, have it be a little more difficult to get a 10.0 -
>a SV of 10 might be more effective if it is translated to a 9.7 --
>obviously these ladies are up to the challenge, why not give it to them?
>
>Mayland
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 17:28:40 CST
From: ***@CCLINK.NET.UOKHSC.EDU
Subject: Re[2]: Women AA (Univ. Games)

>You make a good point, but as a numbers major, let me make one point.


Anjel,

You may be right as far as numbers are concerned but, when it comes to
gymnastics, we know that the NCAA level does not require that same difficulty
level. Level 10 gymnast can have a reasonable good season in NCAA when they
would never make it in the elite level.

I work with numbers a lot and I know that you can make them do whatever you want
to, just changing the way you use those numbers. But this time I'm behind
Mayland and her numbers, I have seen enough NCAA and Elite gymnastics to know
that Mayland's numbers are representative of the actual difficulty level. If you
score a good level 10 girl with elite rules, she will not get the same scores as
when you score her with level 10 rules.

Ligia.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:34:59 -0600
From: ***@HARRIER.SASKNET.SK.CA
Subject: Re: Devil's Advocate

> ....... Unfortunately, age does make a
>difference and to discount it would be irresponsible. Look at the facts. How
>many gymnasts do you know who have still been able to compete at an
>international level above the age of 18? How many gymnasts can you find who
>are doing their *best* gymnastics on an international level over the age of 18?
>Not too many I suspect (I can only think of a few, some of which would be
>considered "late bloomers" by gymnastics standards).


I would have to disagree with this statement. I can think of *a lot* of
gymnasts who improve(d) as they get/got older. I assume we're only talking
about women's gym here, but here are a few names that come to mind:

Diana Dudeva, Boriana Stoyanova, Iveta Polokova, Benedicte Evrard,
Shannon Miller, Dominique Dawes, Mari Kosuge, Nadia Comaneci (I mean
her competitive years here), Brandy Johnson, Wendy Bruce, Monique Allen,
Kylie Shadbolt, Lisa Reed, Joanne Hughes. And then there's Bogie. She
looks better than she ever did.

And then there's collegiate gymnasts. Heather Stepp, Kareema Marrow,
Hope Spivey, Beth Wymer, Melissa Marlowe, Kim Hamilton, and on and on...

All of the above gymnasts only got better with age (some looked better
in college then they did in elite). I've mentioned this before, but
every gymnast has a bit of "down time" as her body changes and she
adjusts to it. Unfortunately, this may happen at the worst possible time
for some people, but give it a year or two and the gymnast will be just as
good if not better.

Nadia is a good example of this. She was just as impressive in 1980 as
she was in 1976. 1978 was when her body changed, but a year later at
Europeans and Worlds she was making her way back and by 1980 was in
fantastic shape.

I strongly disagree that gymnastics is a sport only for young, short girls.
Sure, they will progress the fastest when they're younger and tinier, but
being young and tiny will not last forever. It is very important that
the gymnast has that time for progression and learning, so age will make a
difference when the gymnast begins. But if a gymnast has hopes of staying
in the sport longterm (ie an olympics or two after puberty) she will have to
deal with her body change with some patience and it will mean being in
the sport at and "older" age.

I really think that "older" gymnasts are so much better in many ways.
The most obvious is the maturity. An "older" gymnast, IMHO, understands
what she's doing and how to do it so much better than a younger gymnast.
To a 13 or 14 year old, it's probably still just a bunch of flips and
twists. An 18 or 19 year old better comprehends the mechanics of the
skills (and progressions) and thus can perform them a lot better.

I like the way the sport is moving back towards the "older" gymnasts.
While we may not see the big skills quite as frequently, what we will
see is much better quality gymnastics.

Sorry to ramble on...

DORY

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:35:06 -0600
From: ***@HARRIER.SASKNET.SK.CA
Subject: Foreign gymnast competing NCAA's

> Time for a new topic. Should foreign-born gymnasts be actively recruited
>to compete here? Lissenko and Kalanina were originally offered scholarships
>by Maryland. My sister says its bad for US collegiate programs. I say its
>good. Your views? How about Rukhina? Do you have an opinion?


There was a letter to the editor in IG about this awhile back which I didn't
agree with. It more or less said that US college scholarships should be
used for US gymnasts only. That there are a lot of American gymnasts wanting
these scholarships that are given away to foreign athletes.

We must first realize that these gymnasts are there first and foremost for
a college education, not for gymnastics, and if that education can be paid
for with a full scholarship then most everyone is going to be interested
in this.

Are there any other countries that offer full scholarships? I mean in
the Western world, here. Obviously the former Soviet countries pay (or
paid) for the athletes to go to university. Or did Natalia Kalinina
take out a student loan?! ;-)

There are certainly no gymnastics scholarships available in Canada ... or
many full scholarships of any kind, for that matter? (Sorry, I know pretty
much zilch about secondary education.) I think I remember one university
that offers a $1,000.00 gymnastics scholarship (that was men's I think).

This is why so many Canadian gymnasts have gone south the last few years.
There is simply nothing up here.

And these foreign gymnasts are not recruited just for their gymnastics.
It's not like the school is going to let them in just for their
athletics ... they need the grades to get in.

Some recruiting has been a little much, I'll admit that. Some college
coaches are stay close with what's going on in their home country and
are interested in making scholarships available. Ernestine Weaver was
obviously pretty outgoing with making scholarships available to the
Canadian gymnasts. The Hungarian coaches at the U of Minn were able
to bring in Zsuzsu Csisztu (I heard at one time that Henni Onodi was
thinking of attending, as well). There's nothing really wrong with
this as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

All universities have foreign students ... why can't they be athletes
as well? If people don't want foreign athletes does that mean they
don't want foreign students at the university at all, taking up seats
in overfull classes that could go to American students?

Americans are supposed to welcome foreigners with open arms and the majority
do so happily, I believe. Of course, not everyone shares the same opinion.

I would guess that the majority of foreign gymnasts that come to American
schools do not have the same opportunity in their home country.

Anyone share my views on this?

DORY

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:54:15 -0600
From: ***@HARRIER.SASKNET.SK.CA
Subject: Re: Foreign gymnast competing NCAA's

>It has been done many many times -- I can list Penn State men & a few
>others, I don't know about women's teams
>Great Britian - Terry Barlett, Ian Shelley, Jamie Downer, Karl Abraham
>Brazil - Marcelo Ribero
>Israel - Danny Akerman, Ofri Porat
>Spain - Miguel Rubio, Alfonso Rodriguez
>
>I am sure that many women have been from foreign countries also.


Here are a few of the women that I can think of:

Austria - Birgit Schier (UCLA)
Poland - Margaret Mroz (Malgorzata Mroz) (one of the Illinois U's)
Hungary - Zsuzsu Csisztu (Minn)
Australia - Jane Warrilow (I think?) (Utah State)
China - a few girls have come over (one to Iowa, I believe) several years
ago but I don't remember any names.
Canada - too many to name! but some prominent names include Elfi Schlegel,
Anita & Sandra Botnen, Gigi Zosa, Christina MacDonald, Lori Strong,
Leah Homma, Stella Umeh, Larissa Lowing, Jennifer Wood, etc etc...

That's about all that come to mind immediately. Anyone else?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:15:17 -0400
From: ***@WPI.EDU
Subject: Intro

Well, I figured it was about time to write this, since I have
been subscribed for some time now. My name is Timothy. I am a
20 year old college student at Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) in
Worcester Massachusetts. My interest in gymnastics did not originate
from active participation, but instead from watching. I caught a meet
on tv in late 1991, early 1992. It was during this meet that I saw my
favorite gymnast for the first time. Shannon Miller struck me as being a
remarkable athlete. So remarkable, that I instantly became mesmorized
(mis-spell) with her and consequently sought all information on her and
gymnastics in general. I am now starting gymnastics myself (only for
fun of course).
Well, there is not much else to say except that if you have any
questions I love getting e-mail. My address is ***@wpi.wpi.edu. Also I
know there are probably people subscribed that have connections to Dynamo
Gym and I would love to hear from them so that I could possibly direct
any questions towards them. I also have a web page and the address is as
follows:
http://www.wpi.edu/~wcsm
I would appreciate any comments on my page, actually I should say
Shannon's page, since I have dedicated it to her.

Sincerly,
Timothy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 19:15:32 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: Why they peak late....

Dory writes:


I would have to disagree with this statement. I can think of *a lot* of
gymnasts who improve(d) as they get/got older. I assume we're only talking
about women's gym here, but here are a few names that come to mind:

Diana Dudeva, Boriana Stoyanova, Iveta Polokova, Benedicte Evrard,
Shannon Miller, Dominique Dawes, Mari Kosuge, Nadia Comaneci (I mean
her competitive years here), Brandy Johnson, Wendy Bruce, Monique Allen,
Kylie Shadbolt, Lisa Reed, Joanne Hughes. And then there's Bogie. She
looks better than she ever did.

< You can add Kathy Johnson to the list and Julianne McNamara, as well.
Both were in their best shape and did their best as "old ladies" of 24
and 18, respectively.>


I really think that "older" gymnasts are so much better in many ways.
The most obvious is the maturity. An "older" gymnast, IMHO, understands
what she's doing and how to do it so much better than a younger gymnast.
To a 13 or 14 year old, it's probably still just a bunch of flips and
twists. An 18 or 19 year old better comprehends the mechanics of the
skills (and progressions) and thus can perform them a lot better.

<Also, they have experience behind them. They know how to deal with the
pressure and can really focus on the competition. Monceanu is an excellent
example. She had all the talent in the world, yet she just had to get used
to the pressure and focusing. A few more competitions under her belt and
she'll be great.>


I like the way the sport is moving back towards the "older" gymnasts.
While we may not see the big skills quite as frequently, what we will
see is much better quality gymnastics.

<You'll notice that it always has been an "older" gymnast sport. We may have
had "stars", but they fade fast. The biggest names in gymnastics are the
ones which had long careers: Kim, Nadia, Ludmilla Tourescheva, Olga, Vera,
and now you can add Miller, Dawes, Bogi, Milo, and Shushunova. They lasted,
they made their impact, and the sport is diffierent because of each of them.
Mary Lou, Phillips, and even Gutsu will be just names in the record
books by comparison. Mary Lou may be the best known gymnast in this country,
but we know that had she not won in '84, she may have just been another
unknown, good gymnast.>

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 21:04:01 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: WUG

I like it how it is not as difficult to score a 10.00. It kinda makes it more
realistic, than having to be so perfect. just my opinion,
Kathy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 21:21:28 -0400
From: ***@INTERACTIVE.NET
Subject: NCAA

On the subject of athletes from other countries competing in the NCAA, I
have no major problem with it because by joining these teams they could
bring much needed financial support by doing well in the big meets, and
possibly bring more scholarship money to other gymnasts. But I can also see
the draw backs of less American athletes getting the chance to compete, or
even to go to college because they do not get much needed scholarships.
One another note has anyone else known of high schools that recruit.
I have. Not for gymnasts, but soccer players and runners. They would get
special treatment (not having to take tests because they did not know
ENGLISH) because they were recruited from Poland or Kenya. One of the
schools recruited the son of an Olympic Champion to run on their track team!
Could you imagine having to compete against someone who has been in the
sport scince he could walk, when you only started in high school. Of course
this does not usually happen in gymnastics because most start out at a young
age, but you have to consider fairness.

Lori

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 18:50:35 -0700
From: ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: Foreign gymnast competing NCAA's

I agree w/ Dory. Foreign athletes should have the same opportunities to
go to an American college as an American. As long as they keep decent
grades then they should be allowed like every American is.

Margi :)
and
Mardi ;)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 22:23:58 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: height and weight

>There is NO need for this. We NEVER hear about tennis players or LPGA
>members' weight and heoght

I agree, there should not be so much emphasis on this. Actually, you do hear
about tennis player's height (as it effects their play), and you hear about
their weight if they have become too heavy. Just this week, I heard the
commentators talking about both Monica Seles' height and weight (she is too
heavy). They don't, however, flash these numbers as statistics as can be
done in gymnastics.

IMO, part of the problem is brought on because it is so visibly obvious how
tiny and skinny (understatement) these kids are. And most of the very elite
gymnasts are kids. This is not the fault of TV; Ludmila Toureshiva and many
of those before her were not as young or tiny (yes, I know there are
exceptions in both eras). Olga was quite small, but Bela brought "kids" into
gymnastics with Nadia and he won -big time. Everyone has followed suit and
women's (elite) gymnastics has undergone a substantial change.

I know this isn't a popular opinion in the gymnastics world, but *I* believe
it has some merit. Gymnastics needs to look to it's own house before placing
the blame on the media and the viewing public.

Leigh

------------------------------

End of GYMN-L Digest - 28 Aug 1995 to 29 Aug 1995
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