GYMN-L Digest - 23 May 1996 - Special issue
There
are 21 messages totalling 610 lines in this
issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. GYMN-L Digest - 18 May 1996 to 19 May
1996 (2)
2. Stereotypes
3. '97 FIG changes (5)
4. Now everyone is an attorney...
5. Time for me to say Good Bye
6. Hate mail
7. Kim Z. on TV
8. Shannon Miller
9. This stinks and I've had it
10. USA-trivia-10s
11. bars
transitions
12. Where's Fabrishnova?
13. Subscription suggestion
14. I'm Offended!
15. New Gymnastics Book
16. Calm down everybody!!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 03:03:11
-0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject:
Re: GYMN-L Digest - 18 May 1996 to 19 May 1996
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996
10:22:49 -0400
> From:
***@INETNOW.NET
> Subject: Re: Spartanburg, S.C.
>
>
Ok, Texx, here you go. You just called me and Dean bigots. Why? Because we
I didnt call Dean a bigot.
I told him he was misinformed
and asked him to leave the gay stuff to me since
I have better data.
>
raised the issue of over whether USA gymnastics should
get involved in these
> political fights? You
jumped the gun, and immediately wrote a long winded
> post
condemning everybody who did not agree with USA gymnastics decision to
>
THREATEN to pull the men's training out of Spartanburg, S.C.
>
>
You called them bigots. I have nothing aganist gay
people. What I do have a
> problem with is
people who get on public forums and INSULT OTHER MEMBERS
> PERSONALLY. I
am not going to be called names and take it sitting down.
>
>
THIS ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GOOD AND
WHOLESOME,
> IT IS ABOUT WHETHER OLYMPIC RELATED ORGANIZATIONS SHOULD
INSTIGATE POLITICAL
> BATTLES OVER THE POLITICS OF AN AREA.
I
never said it was over the merits of being gay
(It sux,
but Im living the hand dealt me)
What *I*
said was that when a local official makes a bigotted
statement,
and the comunity
lets it slide, it should be asumed that the comunity aproves
of the remark, hence any boycot
against the comunity id fair game.
I can not abide USA gymn spending
even a DAY in a comunity that advocates
bigotry.
You have blathered about several unrelated
issues.
#1
While the "stars & bars" remind folks about
slavery, those who like it
are
not talking about return to slavery, so shuddap about
it OK ?
The USA
has always been a bunch of mavericks, the stars and bars
reflect
far more than the cruel practice of slavery that happened under
that
flag. And those OTHER things are
why we should be cautious about
banning
the rebel flag.
My native ancestors considered the "bent cross" a sign of
fertility.
Now
because Hitler used it, we must be careful about its use.
#2 Declaring an
official language is not bigotry.
The US is in the minority
NOT having an official
language. Whats
wrong with that ?
When I go to FrAnce, if I have business with the govt
there, it is
presumed that i will deal in french. Ssame Mexico & spanish,
Brazil & portugese, and in China I must deal with the govt in chinese.
I do not support multi
lingual ballots. If you vote, you
must be citizen.
If you cant read enough to vote then you really dont
have enough of a grasp
of whats going
on. Now the voters
pamphlet... THATS a horse of another
color
! That thing is incomprehensible
even in english !
I support english
only ballots, but the voters pamphlets SHOULD be
multi
lingual.
#3
Do you REALLY think they will EVER enforce prop 47 ?
The courts will shred that
law. It has never been in place
since it was
taken to court the morning after it passed.
Also, this
bill was hotly debated before the election, hence the
state is on
record as NOT being 100% behind the bill. The hate from Spartanburg was
NOT locally pretested.
I also point out that we
have a legal procedure for entering this country.
This misguided law is a
poorly engineered law for dealing with people who
entered
the US illegally and technically are criminals.
These people are different
from people I know whos family entered LEGALLY.
Carlos, Angel, Trish &
Kathy, Joaquin, Sandy, and many other friends I
have
who entered the US properly. I also
remember the lunchtimes we
spent
at DUAL, helping Hui cram for his citizenship
exam.
(Im a good speller, but he makes me look sick, and he only
learned English a
few years ago !)
How many countries can you
gain citizenship without knowing the local
language?
You
seem to be mixing issues here.
> If you want to discuss the merits
of homosexuality, go to a gay and lesbain
> chat room, or to alt.sexuality.gay
or some other newsgroup. I am discussing
We dont
have chat rooms in e-mail.
Chat rooms are for BBS dweebs.
> a legitmate issue that was brought
up by our local newspaper involving USA
> GYMNASTICS. My local TV
station asked the same question.
Apparently your local station sees no
problem with letting communities issue
M
hateful
proclamations without repercussions.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 03:35:34
-0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject:
Re: GYMN-L Digest - 18 May 1996 to 19 May 1996
Before you beat me over
the head,
I botched my mail header.
I was trying to send a privarte reply to wassisname at
inetnow.com
It is VERY hard to reply to a single poster when you get
the digests and if
you are not REAL careful you
nail the list.
(Specially if you are on a VT 100 !)
The
message got sent and suddenly I realized "Ah HELL !
I screwed up !"
After the number of
times Ive yelled at people for not getting their
headers right, MY number
came up and THIS TIME *IM* the bad guy.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 08:31:33
EST
From: ***@MAIL.FIRN.EDU
Subject:
Stereotypes
I
NEED TO MAKE SOMETHING CRYSTAL CLEAR IMMEDIATELY. My question
the
other day on the list about no knowing what Spartanburg was about in no
way intended to start a discussion about these gymnasts
personal lives. In
many sports there are openly "gay" athletes and
gymnastics to my knowledge
has none. I would not have a problem if our sport
did have these open
athletes. I first questioned this because when I
was younger, I did
gymnastics and was teased about
being a "sissy" or whatever.
It infuriates
me that males in our sport
have to put up with this crap! I
truly admire
any male that sticks it out. If I had not lived in a small rural
town, I
would not have been teased so much, and I
would have pursued my gymnastics
further if I
would have had a nearby facility and money. I have received
private
e-mail about legal actions for my comments. I DID NOT ACCUSE
ANYONE OF ANYTHING
SO THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE MAILED ME ABOUT LEGAL ACTIONS
HAVE NOTHING ON
ME. I love this forum and look
forward to reading it
everyday. Let's hope that another controvery does not start over a
misunderstanding. I will say that from now on I will not
ask a question
about something so sensitive.
Gary
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 09:03:51
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
'97 FIG changes
In a message dated 96-05-22 17:40:22 EDT,Vanessa writes:
>Is
anyone else shocked at the new code changes? The elite men start at an
8.8
>and the elite women start at a 9.0. And so many elements
devalued. Double
lay
>out
on bars=d giant full bars =c and almost all fronts on floor knocked down
>also. Front full on vault 10 to a 9.6. Does anyone think
this is not good
for
>the
future of gymnastics? I wish they would reward the clean skills and
>artistry. But at this rate everyone will have to do quads on
floor! I don't
>think it helps the injuries in
the sport . When will it end. They want the
>longevity
of the gymnasts but how can this happen if only children that
weigh
>60lbs will be able to keep up.?
Perhaps I can help explain this from a judge's
viewpoint. The purpose of the
FIG code is to discriminate between the best
gymnasts in the world.
Invariably, gymnasts and coaches find ways to get
high scores with less
difficult routines. A great
example in mens is the wrong grip stoop endo
pirouette. This is an
E-skill because of all the value raising involved, but
is
a relatively simple skill. Consequently, just about anyone that was short
an E-skill for bonus purposes was using it, sometimes twice
in their routines
artificially inflating their
scores, or getting equal scores to gymnasts with
much
more difficult elements. Front tumbling on FX is a similar phenomenon.
When you devalue abused skills and
increase the bonus component of the
gymnast's
score, you force gymnasts to do more difficult routine to get the
top scores. The practical upshot is that only the best
gymnasts in the world
will be getting upper nines.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 09:04:08
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
Now everyone is an attorney...
I have been getting some pretty
interesting E-mail as of late... I
guess now
that following "heated"
threads, sharing opions, and being outspoken on
some
issues is grounds for threats of being
sued.
I'll just sit back and read YOUR fourm
for a while... maybe that will make
you
happy.
I appreciate the opportunity to be part of YOUR list.
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 08:23:37
-0500
From: ***@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU
Subject:
Re: '97 FIG changes
I understand the point behind devaluing some
skills, but cmon, all of
them?
I'm not saying that skills like a front full or a rudi
or a giant
full on bars shouldn't be devalued. My
point is, we've come nowhere
near hitting the 10.0
mark consistently. I think there have been two
awarded
tens. THe highest women's scores at Sabae were Mo's 9.937
dt yurchenko, and I think Khorkina's bars at 9.912. Both routines most
like would have received tens four years earlier. The judges
ARE managing
to keep the skill levels
differentiated (IE, Milo's beam at World AA).
To lower the start score and
devalue skills is just BEGGING for kids to
push
the envelope. If you think we have injuries now, I hate to see what
we will have down the line. I'm sorry, but there is no way
stress
fractures should be the norm.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 07:06:43
-0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject:
Re: '97 FIG changes
In a message dated 96-05-22 17:40:22 EDT,Vanessa writes:
>
Is anyone else shocked at the new code changes? The elite men start at
>
an 8.8 and the elite women start at a 9.0. And so many
elements
> devalued. Double layout on bars=d giant full bars
=c and almost all
> fronts on floor knocked
down also....
> Does anyone think this is not good for the future of
gymnastics?
Well, devaluation is nothing new and I think it benefits
the sport, as
it's now necessary to find other,
different elements to perform. I,
for
one, am so tired of seeing Omelianchiks
on B, layout front fulls on FX,
Phelps on V, etc.
These and other moves have become so common that an
optional competition is like watching compulsories,
IMO.
Debbie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:11:48
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
Time for me to say Good Bye
I want to say thanks for putting up with
my "noise" and
"rumors" for the
past few months... I
have put my keyboard in my mouth one to many times and I
don't
want to put the security of my family on the screen - so to speak.
I
have enjoyed staying updated on the activities of the folks I grew up with
-
and some of the discussions (where I could make
constructive comments).
Have fun Powerbar
guy..
Paul O'neil
is the MAN!!!
-Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:27:15
-0400
From: ***@UNHF.UNH.EDU
Subject:
Hate mail
Not long ago, a number of parents discussed (ON the list)
the possibility of
creating a new list where
Junior Olympic issues and the sport in general could
be
discussed without "stepping on the toes" of those out there who have
little
tolerance for people who don't know as much
about the sport. Basically, we were
talked out of
starting something new with the reasoning that this list was open
and understanding of those of us not quite "up to
speed" with the nitty gritty
details of the sport.
However, now we have another
situation where innocent questions about an issue
are
prompting hate mail and threats of legal action against those asking the
questions. I, for one, do not want my daughter (and her
teammates who tune into
this list from time to
time) to spend time on a forum if it is going to be so
risky
to ask questions. Those who ask the questions never know if they are
going to get slammed for it or not.
This list is a
terrific source of information for gymnasts, coaches, and
parents. I would hate to see it chase away the young
gymnasts and parents who
could learn so much from
the more experienced gymnastics professionals.
Just my two cents,
Lynanne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:26:04
-0500
From: ***@MERLE.ACNS.NWU.EDU
Subject:
Kim Z. on TV
Hello all -
Well, I don't know if this is an
appropriate posting, but here goes. . .
While I
was studying pretty late last night for my biology final, I turned
the tv on and really the only news
on was NBC night side, and the ab-roller
(that's what happens when you watch TV at 3:30 in the
morning), but anyway,
a brief blurb was on about
the Olympic Torch relay in Houston, and all of a
sudden
Kim Zmeskal was there running. 'Course she was only on for about 2
seconds, and she was running, instead of doing double
layouts (guess that
would be hard with a fiery
torch in your hand). . .Anyway, it was great to
actually
see her on tv. . .maybe she was running over to Karolyi's to train
= ) Wouldn't that be cool if really
her decision not to "come back" was
just
one big marketing ploy, and secretly she's training for nationals?. . .
.(Just go with me on this = )
Sue
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:51:05
-0500
From: ***@CIC.NCHE.EDU
Subject:
Shannon Miller
Wasn't Shannon Miller scheduled to carry the Olympic
torch on route
to Atlanta? Has she already done it?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:08:26
PDT
From: ***@TIBCO.COM
Subject:
Re: '97 FIG changes
My point is, we've come nowhere
>near hitting the 10.0 mark consistently. I think there have
been two
>awarded tens. THe
highest women's scores at Sabae were Mo's 9.937
>dt yurchenko,
and I think Khorkina's bars at 9.912. Both routines
most
>like would have received tens four years
earlier. The judges ARE managing
>to keep the
skill levels differentiated (IE, Milo's beam at World AA).
Except that
Liu Xuan was what, *9th* on bars in Puerto Rico with
a
*9.7*?!?!?
The judges are reluctant to give out 9.9+, but they apparantly
have no problem boxing in 27 gymnasts in the 9.7-9.85
range. The problem
now is that there are SO many good gymnasts, as opposed to
before when maybe
only 5 or 6 could challenge for
medals. They need to separate the
good
routines from the great routines, which they
are not doing to the best of
their ability, and
the code is an obstacle in doing this.
9.5 should be an incredible
score. 9.5 out of 10 is 95%. Imagine going
through
your academic career with nothing less than 95%. A 90% on a paper
or
test is still pretty good, wouldn't you say?
--
Amanda
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:20:41
-0500
From: ***@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU
Subject:
This stinks and I've had it
The facts people
1) People are unsucbribing from the list because of this latest flame
war.
2) People are being threatening to be sued for having opinions ( I can't
think of anything
that was suit-worthy, myself)
3) THIS IS RIDICULOUS!
Why
can't we all just grow up? The whole Spartenburg
issued rapidly
degraded into flaming, and it went
public. We need to learn from our
mistakes. Those
who don't are doomed to repeat them.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:33:47
+0000
From: ***@IGC.APC.ORG
Subject:
USA-trivia-10s
Who won the first 10.0 in USA domestic elite
competition
(both men's and women's)? Obviously, it depends on
which competitions count--nationals or whatever.
I
don't know about men's; for women's, I always think
of
Kelly McCoy on vault, but could be wrong.
(Any
idea whatever happened to her, by the
way?)
--Mary Lynne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 20:37:12
PDT
From: ***@AMDAHL.CO.ZA
Subject:
Re: bars transitions
Another change to the 97 code,
etc. is that there will be a deduction for
using
the 'squat on' to get from low to high bar! :)
Helen.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:11:23
+0200
From: ***@MICRONET.IT
Subject:
Re: Where's Fabrishnova?
>I was wondering
if anyone knew what has happened to Oksana Fabrishnova. She
>is
one of my favorite gymnasts and has missed most of the recent meets. She
>wasn't
at Puerto Rico, at European's and I did'nt see her
name in the
>Russian Nationals results. Is she injured?
>
>Andrea
>
>
>
She's
going to partecipate to the Grand Prix of Rome next
week.
Carlo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:24:44
-0400
From: ***@GOOFY.UMD.EDU
Subject:
Re: '97 FIG changes
As I understand it, the new FIG code is not yet
official, but is being
circulated for discussion
and comment. I'm sure that things
will change
greatly between now and finalization.
--
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:34:01
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
Subscription suggestion
I'd like to see a (very) short msg, every week or so with
subscription info.
Those of us on AOL and other services have mail
that automatically "trashes"
itself,
could really use a short msg that made referring
friends to GYMN
easy. When I'm at a meet and we talk with
parents/coaches etc, I always get
interest in GYMN if we talk about it. If there were a
periodic msg that came
out like clockwork, we could just hit reply, type in the
names of the people
we are referring to GYMN and
let GYMN subscribe them or have a msg sent to
their attn.
Many, if not most of the people I meet are new to online and use
a service like AOL or Compuserve. They are not adept at searching the net
or
using FTP, even if they *knew* where to look.
Maybe overkill, but just an
idea.
//Don
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:52:38
-0700
From: ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject:
I'm Offended!
You wrote:
>
>And one more
comment--Dominique does say "you know" a lot, but my take
on it is
>this: As a 19-year-old who has 13 and
16-year-old siblings, EVERY
teenager
>uses that phrase way too much. It's similar to "cool" or
"like" being
said
>whenever they were thinking of what to say next. Although it can be
slightly
>annoying, I'd
rather look at it as evidence that a gymnast, even an
elite
at
>Karolyi's, is still showing traits of being a NORMAL TEENAGER.
>
Sorry, but I am very offended by that comment. I
don't
say "you know" a lot, if never and "cool" and
"like" don't come
out of my mouth much
and I am 14. I just wish that everyone could stop
making
comments about "teenagers" and age. I know a lot of adults who
say "you know" a lot. Dominque just has a bad habbit, it has nothing to
do w/how old she is....
Laura
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:50:18
+0000
From: ***@CLOUD9.NET
Subject:
New Gymnastics Book
While in Barnes & Noble today, I found a new
hardcover book called
"Gymnastics." Written by Dan Gutman
and published by Viking,
it's 187 pages long and
has many black and white and color photos (by
Nancy Raymond and Dave
Black). It's a quick read and is
geared
mainly towards those with only a basic
knowledge of the sport who
want to learn more
about artistic gymnastics. Sorry,
RSG fans, but
rhythmic gets only 2 pages
here...
There are the obligatory mini-biographies about Korbut and Comaneci,
along
with a chapter called "Superstars of the 1990s," which has
profiles of many of today's top international gymnasts. Happily, the
men
receive almost as much attention as the women. Other chapters
include
a description of the events, how judging works, and (shades
of Joan Ryan here) the "deep trouble" in the
gymnastics world. I
found only one glaring error: the author states that "music is
used
with floor exercises for the first time"
in 1974. Uh,
sure.
If you're a faithful reader of "IG" then you
won't find much new
information here, but all in
all it's an interesting, well-written
and
well-researched book. Using today's
Code, I'd give "Gymnastics"
a 9.612.
:-)
Debbie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:52:45
-0400
From: ***@INETNOW.NET
Subject:
Calm down everybody!!!!
I see there is a lot of hostility and hate on
this forum. Why? Can't we have
decent conversions
and debates on various, and sometimes controversial
topics?
The subject of the TV commentators and Moceanu/Marinescu isn't even
controversial
and some people are hollering about lawsuits and defamation of
character. Pleeeease!!!!!
Some
of the people on this forum are some of the most defensive, hostile,
aggressive, paranoid and mean-spirited on the internet.
Certain people on
this forum will raise hell over
NOTHING. I have NEVER seen anything like
this over
the cyberspace. First it was Oprah, now TV commentators.
I think some
of you guys just need a coke and a smile. Writing to your
congressman over the Oprah Winfrey show won't help (I swear,
some fool
actually posted a message suggesting
this). I thought gymnastics was
supposed to be fun
and lively. Some of the stuff I see here is what you
would
find in chat rooms and race/sex/politics based newsgroups and BB's.
People
on this forum are tipping around like they are in a minefield, afraid
to upset some of you hot-heads. This
OUTRAGEOUS. Can't we have a whole
ranges of
ideas? Is there only one opinion to be told, and if you say
otherwise you are flamed and atttacked.
And the funny thing is, I am NOT
talking about the
Spartanburg issue.
And don't tell me to leave. You need leave. I am
all for lively debate,
interesting notes, even
some silly posts. But all of this foaming at the
mouth
like mad dogs is for the birds. You know who you are. I am now
offering stress-reduction software, FREE of charge to anyone
who wants it.
Just send your requests to me privately. Maybe then, you
won't have to write
you congressman over a TV
show, or send people who express ideas you don't
like
death threats. I will say again this is not really about the
Spartanburg
issue. There has been this kind of hate and venom on this forum
well BEFORE the issue of USA gymnastics and
Spartanburg.
If I see one more nasty post on this board soon, I will
upload the Barney
song, and force everybody to
listen to it. :) {I love you,
you love me, we
are one big happy
family........................}
------------------------------
End
of GYMN-L Digest - 23 May 1996 - Special issue
**************************************************