GYMN-L Digest - 22 Aug 1995 to 23 Aug 1995

There are 18 messages totalling 520 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. Questions for Gym owners
2. TV Guide
3. Millers Fl Ex music
4. Time Article (4)
5. USA TODAY comments & other stuff
6. Re[2]: Time Article (3)
7. HOP-FULL (3)
8. Men's Event Finals (2)
9. Dominique Moceanu & Nationals
10. new beam

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Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 21:19:00 MDT
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Re: Questions for Gym owners

I received the following reply to Sandi's question from USGF.

>From: Steve Whitlock
>Re: lawsuit insurance
>
>A Congress session was conducted in this regard... however since it was
>primarily a Q & A session, I don't have a "handout."
>You should contact your own local insurance rep. AND you can call USAG
Membership
>to get the telephone of the USAG insurance agent (K&K) who will be happy to
>discuss this with you,.
>
>2. RANDY99@delphi.com conducted a Congress session where he presented
results from a
>club survey he conducted that hais information abnout club practices. I am
woking with >Randy to prepare an article for Technique magazine. This will be
>printed ASAP!
>Steve Whitlock
>

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 01:22:19 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: TV Guide

Beth and all -

I'm also a memeber of gymn, though mostly a lurker, because I don't often
have the time to write back, but after I read your note, I thought I should
write back to you. My father is Jim B, the columnist who writes the TV
Guide piece. I just wanted to let you know that he does know about Dominique
Dawes, and he is generally pretty gymnastics literate for the typical sports
columnist. Although, he's often asked me for facts and what good would be
good questions to ask during gymnastics conference calls. He does put in
more effort than most columnists would into this under-recognized and
under-appreciated sport.
I don't mean to sound offended or anything in the least, and I know my father
wouldn't be offended at all either. I just wanted to let you know that he
does put in a good deal of effort into his work.

LeeAnn

The original note read:

The latest issue of TV guide (with Regis on the cover with a very large
pencil...) has a full-page write-up about Nationals, mainly the women, with
quotes by Elfi Schlegel and a color photo of Dominique Dawes. It's pretty
good,
except the writer makes it sound like Dom just appeared out of the blue last
year. He/she doesn't know, or at least doesn't mention, that Dom was in the
Barcelona Olympics and placed very high at the '93 and '94 (Brisbane) Worlds,
or that she's been competing internationally for the US since she was 12 or
13!
But despite all that, it's nice to see gymnastics get a full page of coverage
in such a widely read magazine as TV Guide. Hopefully it will inspire people
who haven't watched much gym before to watch NBC's coverage of Nationals this
weekend! :)

Beth

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 08:15:14 -0400
From: ***@WAM.UMD.EDU
Subject: Millers Fl Ex music

Does anyone happen to know the title and composer of the music which Shannon
debuted at this years Nationals...it sounds a bit like some of the music
used in the movie Schindler's List.

thanks

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 08:20:52 -0400
From: ***@WAM.UMD.EDU
Subject: Time Article

This weeks time features an article on this years nationals...

The article mentioned a comment from one of the judges that the author
says "breaks gymnasts spirits and infuriates fans". Basically the comment
came from a judge during compulsories. After her compulsory floor ex
Amy Chow received a 9.425. The judge went on to say that if Amy got a 9.425,
then Moceanu deserved an 11.

Is this common place for the judges to be making comments as such?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:11:53 +0000
From: ***@TPONE.TELEPAC.PT
Subject: Re: Time Article

>This weeks time features an article on this years nationals...
>
>The article mentioned a comment from one of the judges that the author
>says "breaks gymnasts spirits and infuriates fans". Basically the comment
>came from a judge during compulsories. After her compulsory floor ex
>Amy Chow received a 9.425. The judge went on to say that if Amy got a 9.425,
>then Moceanu deserved an 11.
>
>Is this common place for the judges to be making comments as such?


This is an example how judging gymnastics is becoming more and more
depending on judges than gymnasts performance.

Let's see, if Amy Chow got a 9.425 and that fellow judge said that if Amy
got a 9.425 then Moceanu deserved an 11, that means that this judge gave
Amy something
like a 8 and if she scored a 9.425 that means that some judges gave her at
least a 9.9.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:38:25 EDT
From: ***@AMANDA.DORSAI.ORG
Subject: Re: Time Article

>>This weeks time features an article on this years nationals...
>>
>>The article mentioned a comment from one of the judges that the author
>>says "breaks gymnasts spirits and infuriates fans". Basically the comment
>>came from a judge during compulsories. After her compulsory floor ex
>>Amy Chow received a 9.425. The judge went on to say that if Amy got a 9.425,
>>then Moceanu deserved an 11.
>>
>>Is this common place for the judges to be making comments as such?
>
>
No, it's not common, and it shouldn't be. If the judge actually made such a
comment to a reporter, it is certainly not representative of the vast
majority of judges, most of whom try to stay away from reporters. Many
judges have been "burned" in the past when trying to explain something to a
reporter, only to see their words printed in a way they did not intend.

USAG has often recommended judges to stay away from reporters. The meet is
for the athletes. I wholeheartedly agree. Our men's NGJA has told our judges
the same thing numerous times. The time for a judge to evaluate a gymnast is
during the meet, not in the papers. However, before accepting attribution,
let's remember there is still the possiblity that these were not, in fact,
the actual words said.

>This is an example how judging gymnastics is becoming more and more
>depending on judges than gymnasts performance.

Sorry, can't agree here. Without judges, you don't have a competition, you
have an exhibition. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
>
>Let's see, if Amy Chow got a 9.425 and that fellow judge said that if Amy
>got a 9.425 then Moceanu deserved an 11, that means that this judge gave
>Amy something
>like a 8 and if she scored a 9.425 that means that some judges gave her at
>least a 9.9.
>
>
Also not neccesarily so. If this judge gave her particular score, she could
have simply been dropped as the low score.

BTW, I'm not trying to take any sides in this, just adding my 0.02.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:49:34 EDT
From: ***@EOS.NCSU.EDU
Subject: USA TODAY comments & other stuff

Howdy folks! Just thought I would post some stuff that I saw in USA
TODAY. In Monday's (21 Aug) edition, Nationals was mentioned several
times in their "Weekend highs and lows" section. Mary Ann Grabavoy's
feature on Dom M. was listed as the #4 top feature. Tom Hammond earned
best opening honors with comment on Shannon being eighteen and ancient.
The surprise thing was the #2 strongest comment: ESPN's Mitch Albom
said that Bela's picture should be "in a post office: Wanted for child
thievery." (I know I'm not supposed to quote stuff, but I had to do it
for this one.) Pretty strong comment, huh? Seems like we've had that
discussion before.

On the NBC coverage, I will have to agree with wanting 2 hours in the
afternoon over the hour in primetime. Granted, the sport of gymnastics
needs to be seen in a better light, with all the talk of eating
disorders and such going around. My problem is that NBC seemed to
portray 18 as ancient in the sport. It seemed that they were making
Dom M. a breath of fresh air for the sport, but most of us have been
keeping track of her for well over a year or more. Maybe I'M just nuts.
I was very glad to see Monica Flammer and Doni Thompson in the EF. I
had never seen Monica before, and I was impressed with her beam routine.
(I will also admit to becoming a Cypress fan after learning that they
and the local gym where my friends go, GymCarolina, have the same
choreographer.) I love all the Colorado Aerial bars routines,
especially Doni's. I had heard that she had a back injury, but
evidently she's healed up. I also heard (am I a rumor mill?) that Amy
Chow has a stress fracture in right (?) foot, and is wearing a walking
cast. Anybody wanna vouch for this?

That's it for me. Y'all be good.

--Brent

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:50:16 -0400
From: ***@ISSCAD.COM
Subject: Re: Time Article

For those of you with web access try going to
http:/www.timeinc.com/time/universe.html. Then select the Time Magazine
link, follow that to "This Week's Time". Go to the bottom of the page in
the Arts & Media section. There will be a link to the article
"U.S. women gymnasts". It's kind of a lukewarm article, not really
bashing or supporting the sport. I suppose in fact its probably a very
objective article. (Don't you just hate it when you can't accuse the
author of bias)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:34:00 -0400
From: ***@CCMAIL.ORL.MMC.COM
Subject: Re[2]: Time Article

> This is an example how judging gymnastics is becoming more and more
> depending on judges than gymnasts performance.

> Let's see, if Amy Chow got a 9.425 and that fellow judge said that if
> Amy got a 9.425 then Moceanu deserved an 11, that means that this judge
> gave Amy something like a 8 and if she scored a 9.425 that means that some
> judges gave her at least a 9.9.

If that were the case, there would have had to have been a rather lengthy
judges conference after Chow's routine. Judges must be within a certain
range of of the other judges scores (only a few tenths) or a conference is
REQUIRED. A range of 1.9 between two judges would be absurd.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 13:12:50 CDT
From: ***@PROCTR.CBA.UA.EDU
Subject: HOP-FULL

I was watching the broadcast of the women's all-around from Nationals
and Elfi Schlegel said that the hop-full was named after Shannon
Miller. I thought it was named after Oksana Chusovitina and I think
that is the way it is listed in the Code. So, does anyone know?

And, I was reading the bios in the Nationals program guide and it
seems there is quite a flock to the University of Georgia---Samantha
Muehleman, Karen Lichey, Amanda Borden. Hmmmm.... all from
Cincinatti. Yeah, Georgia will have depth, but some people are going
to be sitting on the bench.

Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:33:31 -0700
From: ***@MCN.ORG
Subject: Re: Men's Event Finals

>champ, had several form breaks but had the highest full-in dismount. Hanks
>threw two Thomas' - the first pass was laid out, the second pass was tucked
>(Thomas is a 1 and 3/4 somersalt with 1/2 twist ... you land by rolling out
>of the skill ... considered pretty dangerous, at least on the women's side
>where it is banned).

I thought the Thomas had 1 1/2 twists, and that with a 1/2 twist it's just
an Arabian
1 and 3/4. I guess you would have to twist early for it to be Arabian
though, right? Maybe I'm misinformed.

>His dismount is unique (but not that
>difficult, really) -- he is different because he flips _over_ the bar in his
>twisting and flipping. He normally competes a double back with 1.5 twists,
>but for some reason I have a picture in my mind of him landing facing the
>bar, which would be 2 twists, not 1.5.

He usually does a double (or 1 and 3/4 or 1/2 or whatever) FRONT over the
bar with 1 and 1/2 twists, which is why he ends up facing the bar. He used
to do it with just 1/2 twist until I think '94 Mixed Pairs. One of the
Romanian men does a double back over the bar with 2 twists. I forget his
name but I saw him do it during high bar finals at '94 Goodwill.

Bye,

Orion

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:50:06 -0400
From: ***@ZEUS.TOWSON.EDU
Subject: Dominique Moceanu & Nationals

Well, I have returned from Nationals, have read all my mail, and
watched NBC's coverage of Nationals. I am going to just make a few
comments since almost evrything has been discussed.
1. Dominique Moceanu is wonderful. I know she has things to
improve, but she is only 13. I like her smile and her attitude. It's
her determination that got her this far. As for her FX routine, I agree
it is cute and not too artistic. But, it fits her personality and thus
it works for her (Mo Huilan FX is cute also, but it works for her too).
Anyway, I have liked Dominique's gymnastics since 1992 when she first
made the National Team (Junior). The championships were very fun for me.
2. Shannon Miller and Dominique Dawes performed like true athletes.
I just wish that the commentators would stop saying this stuff about how
they are over the hill.
3. Superdome TOO BIG!
4. The posts concerning Nationals from the Reporters and everyone
else were good.

That's All For Now!

The Mikester Bee

P.S.- I may be in the minority, but I like having everybody's views.
If It is worthwhile information, please post it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 22:18:34 +0000
From: ***@TPONE.TELEPAC.PT
Subject: Re[2]: Time Article

>> This is an example how judging gymnastics is becoming more and more
>> depending on judges than gymnasts performance.
>
>> Let's see, if Amy Chow got a 9.425 and that fellow judge said that if
>> Amy got a 9.425 then Moceanu deserved an 11, that means that this judge
>> gave Amy something like a 8 and if she scored a 9.425 that means that some
>> judges gave her at least a 9.9.
>
>If that were the case, there would have had to have been a rather lengthy
>judges conference after Chow's routine. Judges must be within a certain
>range of of the other judges scores (only a few tenths) or a conference is
>REQUIRED. A range of 1.9 between two judges would be absurd.


I didn't mean it in absolute values but instead of how judges opinions are
different from each other. if this judge felt that 9.425 was too much and
so Moceanu deserved an 11, then he certainly believed that Amy was over
scored and I understand that a 9.425 is already a very low score.
And why was she over scored? certainly because other judges didn't agree
with that judge.
If that disagreement between judges were simply by a few tenths then that
judge had no reson for making those coments about Amy, or should he? he
would probably just say that Amy performance was very poor.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 18:34:32 -0400
From: ***@FIR.FBC.COM
Subject: Re: HOP-FULL

On Aug 23, 1:12pm, Shawn wrote:
> I was watching the broadcast of the women's all-around from Nationals
> and Elfi Schlegel said that the hop-full was named after Shannon
> Miller. I thought it was named after Oksana Chusovitina and I think
> that is the way it is listed in the Code. So, does anyone know?

I could be wrong but I remember reading in Kurt Thomas' bio that he invented
the hop-full on high bar (along with his flairs). Can anyone verify this?

Tony

--

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 19:54:38 -0400
From: ***@GATEWAY.US.SIDWELL.EDU
Subject: Re: new beam

> For all of you who only heard the dimensions of the beam 1 million times
> here is some new information that you would have learned at the meet.
>
> The powder you seeing floating around is actually chalk. The gymnast
> uses it to keep from slipping.
>
> The floor is 40 square meters (at the men's meet)
> The floor is 40 square feet (at the women's meet)
>
> The beam is 4 inches wide.
> The beam is 180 meters high.
^^^^^^
No, that's not a typo on Mayland's part, that's what the announcer said.
Also, the rings tower is 500-something meters high. The announcer also
took till halfway through the women's AA before he figured out how to say
"Bhardwaj" (as in Mohini). And stumbled over John Roethlisberger's last
name in event finals (as Mayland said, winning four national AA titles
means nothing). And said that Jair Lynch is currently coaching at
Stanford, when he's actually doing corporate development at Silicon
Graphics (although that boo-boo was probably USAG's fault).

We missed Stormy Eaton :(.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 21:29:00 -0400
From: ***@UMICH.EDU
Subject: Re: HOP-FULL

I noticed you included Karen Lichey...doesn't she have a twin sister in
gymnastics ( i can't remember her name)...Does anyone know where she
would be attending..
Also, does anyone have any more college bound atheletes info?
Is Kellee Davis attending college in the fall?

Anjel

On Wed, 23 Aug 1995, Shawn wrote:

> I was watching the broadcast of the women's all-around from Nationals
> and Elfi Schlegel said that the hop-full was named after Shannon
> Miller. I thought it was named after Oksana Chusovitina and I think
> that is the way it is listed in the Code. So, does anyone know?
>
> And, I was reading the bios in the Nationals program guide and it
> seems there is quite a flock to the University of Georgia---Samantha
> Muehleman, Karen Lichey, Amanda Borden. Hmmmm.... all from
> Cincinatti. Yeah, Georgia will have depth, but some people are going
> to be sitting on the bench.
>
> Shawn
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 21:51:04 -0500
From: ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: Re: Men's Event Finals

>I thought the Thomas had 1 1/2 twists, and that with a 1/2 twist it's just
>an Arabian
>1 and 3/4. I guess you would have to twist early for it to be Arabian
>though, right? Maybe I'm misinformed.

Nope, you're right. There's also a 1 1/2 twisting Ariabian dive roll,
which is like a Thomas but with a salto removed. Not something you'd want
in an actual tumbling pass (except for a gymnast with very little
difficulty), but cool in the middle of a routine somewhere.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 21:51:07 -0500
From: ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: Re[2]: Time Article

>I didn't mean it in absolute values but instead of how judges opinions are
>different from each other. if this judge felt that 9.425 was too much and
>so Moceanu deserved an 11, then he certainly believed that Amy was over
>scored and I understand that a 9.425 is already a very low score.

A 9.425 is hardly a very low score. A 9.425 indicates that a gymnast
performed a _very_ solid, artistic routine with a few minor problems. We
have gotten used to inflated scoring, but it's worth remembering that if we
were seeing any but the top few performers on a given event we'd be seeing
many scores in the eights and a few in the sevens. And this is in national
and international competition. Also, in many televised meets the scores
seem artifically high to me. Vaulting at nationals is but one example
(which others have already addressed). When I was a (reasonably competent)
gymnast, I would have been delighted with a 9.425 on any event at any meet.

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 22 Aug 1995 to 23 Aug 1995
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