GYMN-L Digest - 20 Nov 1995 to 21 Nov 1995 - Special issue

There are 15 messages totalling 530 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

1. Atlanta Invite - various comments (2)
2. Grinkov
3. Clip Art (2)
4. Rulfova (2)
5. Eastern Europe sports facilities
6. Where happened to them?
7. RESULTS: Trinacria Cup
8. Lighter fluid - LONG
9. Atlanta Invitational
10. DTB Pokal Preview
11. Catania Cup
12. Nancy Raymond's attack on patriotism

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 23:28:39 -0500
From: ***@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Subject: Atlanta Invite - various comments

I just got through reading all my e-mail that accumulated over 2 weeks,
and thought I'd add a few comments about the Atlanta meet. I don't know what
all the other gymners who were there thought, but I found the organization of
the meet truly frightening, considering this was a test-run for the Olympics.
As Mayland mentioned, it was downright freezing in the Georgia Dome during
podium training. Even if you had a coat on. So I elected to skip a lot of the
training so I wouldn't get pneumonia (I already had a bad cold, as did some of
the athletes - most notably Rustam Sharipov. That he even lived through the
meet is a miracle!). ACOG gave the athletes biographical information forms to
fill out that were SO long that they resembled tax forms. Plus they were in
English and no interpreters were around to help the athletes, at least not the
Ukrainians. So Susan and I ended up filling out the Ukrainians' forms for them,
obviously getting the info directly FROM them, so it was correct. During podium
training, when the scoreboards were being tested, all their names were spelled
the way THEY had spelled them in English (Alexandr Svetlichny, Rustam
Sharipov, Oksana Knizhnik and Lyubov Sheremeta). But come competition time, all
their names were spelled incorrectly. I have no idea how this happened, but it
makes me wonder why ACOG even bothered to have the athletes fill out forms if
the info on them wasn't going to be believed. Almost all the info in the
program was wrong. The absolute worst was the paragraph on Boginskaya. It had
her listed as being 24 (she's 22) and included this sentence: "At the 1990
World Championships, Boginskaya made history, winning the all-around, the four
apparatus finals and a team gold medal, a feat she alone has accomplished." It
certainly IS a feat, considering there never was a 1990 World Championships,
and Bogy never swept the medals at ANY World Championships! I have no clue
where IBM and ACOG were getting their info, but I wouldn't put any faith in it.
The scoreboards were another disaster. They were designed by Swatch and
are decorated with Ebola virus (really!) and do not have the traditional red
and green lights on top of them. Instead, they show a red stop sign or a green
go sign, both of which are hard to see from a distance, are completely
unfamiliar to gymnasts used to the bright red and green signal lights, and are
not going to be too helpful to athletes who don't speak any English. The
scoreboards contributed to all the problems with Marinescu's vaults. As far as
I understand what happened, Alexandra correctly entered the number for her
vault, but for some reason the IBM people would not allow the athletes to touch
the button that would let the judges know what vault was going to be performed.
So on her first vault, Marinescu was penalized .3 because someone from IBM
failed to press the button for her. On her second vault, a judge evidently held
up a green flag, so Alexandra performed, but she was given a zero because the
red stop sign on the scoreboard (which was very difficult to see) was still
lit. She was in tears, but the Romanians successfully protested and eventually
no penalties were taken. But this all transpired after the vault award
ceremony, so I still have no idea if Alexandra got the medal and prize money
she earned. I personally do not see the point in making such big changes in the
design of the scoreboards, especially for such an important event as the
Olympics. The athletes have enough things to worry about...
George already mentioned the announcer and how horribly he butchered
everyone's names, even those of the American athletes. Bart Connor was sitting
next to me for a while and told me that he was VERY tempted to go tell the
announcer that he'd better seek out a consultant FAST. I think he was most
amused by the pronunciation of Andrei Kan, which came out as "can." He remarked
that Andrei probably has a brother named "trash." The coaches and athletes
seemed rather amused by all of this, but it was pretty embarrassing for a dress
rehearsal for the Olympics... But the award ceremonies were even worse. It
seemed as if drunken sailors were raising the flags each time. They never got
in synch and got the flags up straight - they were always very crooked. This
cracked up the usually stony-faced Leonid Arkaev and almost all the other
coaches. It really WAS funny, but it's going to be a huge embarrassment if this
happens at the Olympics.
Then there was the nonexistent press conference. I've never been to a meet
before, even a simple dual meet, where there was no press conference. Maybe I
blinked and missed it somehow... But I know for sure that Aleksandr Svetlichny
and Yevgeny Podgorny, the gold and bronze medalists in the AA, were never at
any press conference, because they were out of the building well ahead of me.
It could very well be that some of the media got to talk to Marinescu and to
Blaine Wilson, but none of the event staff people ever let the people in the
media seats know if, where and when there would be any interviews. It was
extremely disorganized. The security people were also extremely careful about
making the athletes and the media exit from two different routes that ended in
exactly the same place - basically the lobby area, where *anyone* could swarm
the athletes unless they ran out the doors (which is what they did). The
organizers also arranged it so the press had to enter the building through a
door on the right, while the athletes entered through a door on the left about
15 feet away, but once inside the building, the two groups had to cross paths,
since the athletes entered the gym on the right and the press had to go to the
left. That made sense. These were just a few of the wrinkles that will have to
be ironed out before the Olympics. It's very scary...

Beth

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 23:23:49 -0500
From: ***@PHOENIX.PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Grinkov

Sorry, I know this isn't gymn, but since someone brought it up (thank you
for informing us) I thought people might be interested in more info.
There is a long article by the AP. I found it at
http://web.usatoday.com/sports/sd009.htm

-Emily

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 00:41:09 EST
From: ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: Clip Art

Does anyone have any information on where I can get good gymnastics
clip art?

Is there any place to download any gymnastics clip art from the
internet?

Thanks
STEEL

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 11:28:32 MET
From: ***@SEPA.TUDELFT.NL
Subject: Re: Rulfova

>Isn't a Rulfova just a full-twisting Korbut flick on beam?
>Bex

I saw Jana compete at the Ennia Gold Cup , The Hague, early eighties
where she did the same move on bars and to my knowledge the
move is also called the rulfova (seems ages ago so I could be wrong)




Chantal



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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 07:56:14 -0500
From: ***@UMICH.EDU
Subject: Eastern Europe sports facilities

I was just wondering if someone could tell me what are the conditions
for sports facilites in places like Romaina, Ukranine , Russia, etc.
Also I would like to know what are the facilites for the small countries
like Poland. I think on cable on the International Channel (US) the
Russian evening news will come on today and there will be more news
about the skater. To me it does not seem real that he should have died.
In skating they were unstoppable and nobody came close. 6

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 08:21:54 -0500
From: ***@GATEWAY.US.SIDWELL.EDU
Subject: Re: Clip Art

> Does anyone have any information on where I can get good gymnastics
> clip art?
>
> Is there any place to download any gymnastics clip art from the
> internet?

I have a (very small!) collection of gymnastics clip art on my gymnastics
archive:
http://humper.student.princeton.edu/~lcozzens or
http://fledge.watson.org/~lisa/gymn/

There's also a list of links to other gymnastics-related sites, some of
which might have more clip art.

Lisa

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 08:19:11 -0500
From: ***@GATEWAY.US.SIDWELL.EDU
Subject: Re: Where happened to them?

> While we have been doing a lot of, "Where are they now?" questions. I
> thought I would ask a few of my own.
> 1) Why did they leave gymnastics?
> 2) Where are they now?
>
> Kristen McDermont (Parkettes Gymnastics)

Can't answer question #2 for her, but we ran into her father at 1994
Nationals, which she competed at (and made the National Team, I think).
He said that gymnastics really hadn't been fun for her since Olympic
Trials. Pretty good reason to leave ;).

Lisa

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 14:34:03 +0100
From: ***@MICRONET.IT
Subject: RESULTS: Trinacria Cup

Trofeo Trinacria d'oro 1995
Catania, Italy 18-19 november

1. AMANAR Simona (Rom) 9.775 9.700 9.800 9.825 39.100
2. CACOVEAN Andrea (Rom) 9.650 9.725 9.725 9.675 38.775
3. CRISCI Adriana (Ita) 9.600 9.675 9.675 9.525 38.475
4. WANG Xin (Chn) 9.375 9.675 9.400 9.325 37.775
5. ATLER Vanessa (Usa) 9.425 9.400 9.375 9.500 37.700
6. BOGDANOVA Ksenia (Rus) 9.325 9.100 9.700 9.550 37.675
7. ROCCHI Giordana (Ita) 9.600 9.450 9.000 9.325 37.375
8. KAMYSHNIKOVA Ekat. (Rus) 9.300 9.000 9.625 9.350 37.275
9. GRAHAM Deidra (Usa) 9.150 8.800 9.100 9.325 36.375
10. DRAGONER Ildiko (Hun) 9.350 8.700 9.075 9.075 36.200
11. ZSIRAI Adrienn (Hun) 9.225 8.625 9.100 9.150 36.100
12. CHEN Qiaozhen (Chn) 8.650 8.700 9.000 9.100 35.450

Finals for apparatus
--------------------
VAULT
1. Amanar (Rom) 9.637
2. Atler (Usa) 9.400
3. Rocchi (Ita) 9.313
4. Dragoner (Hun) 9.250
5. Bogdanova (Rus) 9.063
6. Whang (Chn) 8.450

UNEVEN BARS
1. Cacovean (Rom) 9.750
2. Crisci (Ita) 9.550
Wang (Chn) 9.550
4. Graham (Usa) 9.425
5. Kamyshnikova 9.300
6. Dragoner (Hun) 7.525

BEAM
1. Cacovean (Rom) 9.625
2. Crisci (Ita) 9.500
3. Bogdanova (Rus) 9.450
4. Atler (Usa) 9.400
5. Wang (Chn) 9.000
6. Zsirai (Hun) 8.700

FLOORS
1. Bogdanova (Rus) 9.450
2. Crisci (Ita) 9.400
3. Atler (Usa) 9.325
4. Zsirai (Hun) 8.450
5. Wang (Chn) 8.400
6. Amanar (Rom) 1.000 (injured at the beginning of the exercise)

Carlo

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 08:48:15 -0500
From: ***@YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: Rulfova


> >Isn't a Rulfova just a full-twisting Korbut flick on beam?
> >Bex
>
> I saw Jana compete at the Ennia Gold Cup , The Hague, early eighties
> where she did the same move on bars and to my knowledge the
> move is also called the rulfova (seems ages ago so I could be wrong)

I think that skill on bars is a Mukhina, no? At least she was doing it
in 1978.

:)
Adriana

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 13:46:24 GMT
From: ***@CS.BHAM.AC.UK
Subject: Re: Lighter fluid - LONG

Ann, sorry but I disagree with certain points...

> Fourteen-year-olds who have gotten that far (and I know both
> gymnasts were older, but those at risk are not) are by definition
> risk-takers, and they want to succeed: it is part of the coach's
> job to ensure that this ambition is channeled in a way that
> doesn't put the kid at risk.

By saying that 14 year olds are 'risk-takers' you imply that they have no
concept of danger and will just do the moves with no fear - hence they require
a controlling and guiding hand. I disagree strongly. Yes 14 year olds are in
many cases somewhat less 'nervous' of moves than older pupils (not always
though), and yes to reach a high level in gymn or trampolining people must
have a certain degree of courage, BUT in my experience they still must be
coerced into many of the harder (more frightening) moves. If left completely
upto themselves most pupils would not progress very far. A coaches job is to
maximise the realisation of a persons potential while minimising the dangers.
In real terms this means that a coach will often be pushing a pupil to do
things they themselves don't think they can do, or don't want to do. Obviously
the coach must be aware of the pupils fears, etc., but at the end of the day
there will always be times when the coach pushes for new skills - I do it all
the time with my top performers. When I suggest things like "okay you can do
double back ss, you've just learnt double front with 1/2 twist out, lets now
do 1/2 out, double back", I get responses along the lines of 'you must be
kidding'. The thing to remember is that in most cases the coach has a better
understanding of the pupils ability than the pupil does.

> And again -- at inappropriate risk -- not spotting someone who should still
> be spotted.

With reference to my previous answer. A pupil should only be spotted for the
minimum period of time until they can safely do the skill by themselves. Over
relience on spotting aids (eg. the coach, or mats), can lead to as many
problems, as not using them enough - a fine line that the coach (taking
account of the pupils wishes) must walk. The only person that can really tell
when a pupil should be weened off of spotting aims is the coach - such
decisions being context dependent.

> Now some kids are going to insist on a coach who doesn't hold them back; but
> the rest of us should not be endorsing such coaches even when they get
> results.

Sometimes the only way to get results is to push hesitant kids to do skills
they don't want to do - learning is a process of doing new (thus scary) skill,
and repeating them until they become second nature, thus not scary. The fear
of new skills occurs at all levels and in all pupils. However, the pupils that
go furthest are the ones that (a) strive to overcome their fears, and (b)
have complete trust in their coach. A lack in either of these, however talented
the pupil, will result in mediocre skill levels.

> some coaches, some parents, and some kids will take things too far.

This is very true. As well as pushing hesitant pupils (which most are at some
point) a good coach should hold back over zealous pupils until they are ready
to do the skills they are so desperate to try. In trampolining we get a lot of
people who just want to somersault. These are the types that must be held back
for their own safety.

> Now obviously there's a great deal of difference between people in their
> sense of how much risk is appropriate

I don't think 'risk' is the best word to use here. There is always a so-called
risk of injury in any sport regardless of the pupils age, sex and ability,
and regardless of the coaches ability and 'psuhiness'. Even the most safety
conscious coaches will have pupils having accidents, and the more difficult
the skills become the more harmfull the accidents. In many respects one can
say that beginners are more prone to accidents, where these are normally minor,
but advanced pupils although less prone to accidents, tend to have more
serious ones. To get back to the point though, without a certain degree of
push from the coach many pupils would not reach their maximum potential, and
striving for the best will occasionally result in overstepping the limits,
resulting in accidents or varying degrees.

> Moukhina would have felt a great deal less regret if she thought it was a
> freak accident rather than an inappropriate indifference to her safety.
> She doesn't think nobody should do the move: she doesn't think _she_ should
> have been doing the move.

Again we come back to the problem of who is right and who makes the final
decisions about what moves to do, when and in what combination. Again I argue
that the final decision is the coaches not the pupils, although the pupils
desires/wishes/fears should play a part in the decision process.

I agree with all your ideas concerning maximum number of training hours per
week, minimum number of school hours per week, and regular checks by a doctor.


Christian

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 06:54:00 MST
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Re: Atlanta Invite - various comments

Elizabeth:
>her listed as being 24 (she's 22) and included this sentence: "At the 1990
>World Championships, Boginskaya made history, winning the all-around, the four
>apparatus finals and a team gold medal, a feat she alone has accomplished." It
>certainly IS a feat, considering there never was a 1990 World Championships,
>and Bogy never swept the medals at ANY World Championships! I have no clue
>where IBM and ACOG were getting their info, but I wouldn't put any faith in it.

Beth is completely right, but I just wanted to point out that Boginskaya did
sweep the gold medals at the 1990 European Championships, which is arguably
as much of a feat as if she had swept it at Worlds.

> Then there was the nonexistent press conference. I've never been to a meet
>before, even a simple dual meet, where there was no press conference...
>... but none of the event staff people ever let the people in the
>media seats know if, where and when there would be any interviews. It was
>extremely disorganized.

Well, on both nights, the event staff approached me and George and asked us
for athlete requests for interviews/press conference. The first night they
explained to us how and when the whole interview procedure was going to
work. (Top three and specific requests in the interview room; other athletes
in the "mixed" area; and flashquotes from the press conference available in
the press sub-center.) When we got to the interview room, we waited for
awhile until an embarassed staff person approached us and said, almost exact
quote "We're cancelling the press conference because we lost the gymnasts.
Well, we didn't *lose* them, but they went out the back door. We'll have
this fixed by the Olympics." So we just used the flashquotes that they had
obtained before the gymnasts left the building (Svetlichny and Podgorny were
not among the flashquotes, so they must have been in the group that really
got away). On the second night, we were again asked for our athlete
requests, but we just replied that we'd go with the flow and take whomever
came along. Interviews the second night were just held in the mixed area,
one on one with the gymnasts.

"Drunken sailors" is a perfect description for the flag raising ceremony.
The flags were raised on a contraption that was similar to a training belt,
actually... the flags were attached to a rod, and on each end of the rod
there was a rope that went through a pulley suspended from the ceiling, and
to hoist the flags, people pulled on the ends of the rope (it seemed like
there was two people on each side). The 3rd place flag was significantly
faster than the 2nd place flag, so each time the flags were hoisted up, you
had to wait for the other guys to get caught up. I kept waiting for one guy
to lose his grip on the rope during an anthem or something, and watch his
side of the flag rod come tumbling down. ;)

Rachele

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 11:20:36 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: Atlanta Invitational

Does someone know what the prize money was for AA and event finals?

Jeff\


P.S. I didn't think Bogi was 24 either!

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 12:19:16 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: DTB Pokal Preview

from the dpa ...

This coming Friday and Saturday, Stuttgart will host the annual DTB Cup -
arguably the most prestigious invite on the gymnastics calander - in the
Schleyer-Halle, site of the '89 World Championships.

*All* the indivdual and event gold medalists from Sabae have been invited and
are currently scheduled to attend. There are 27 men and 16 women in the DTB
field. Most of the DTB Pokal competitors will continue on to the Swiss Cup
(1-3 December in Zurich) and perform in a series of "Gala" exhibitions around
Germany.

The DTB Cup, along with the Swiss Cup, & the Cottbus International (held last
May) make up the "Grand Prix" prize money circuit.

Scheduled competitors include ...

MEN - Andreas Wecker (GER), Vitali Scherbo (BLR), Huang Liping (CHN), Li
Donghua (SUI), Alexei Nemov (RUS), Grigori Misutin (UKR), Yuri Chechi (ITA),
Rustam Sharipov (UKR), Valeri Belenky (GER), Sergei Kharkov (RUS), Ivan
Ivankov (BLR), Marius Urizca (ROM), Uwe Billerbeck (GER), Marius Toba (GER),
& Oliver Walther (GER)

WOMEN - Lilya Podkopayeva (UKR), Svetlana Khorkina (RUS), Gina Gogean (ROM),
Lavina Milosovici (ROM), Oksana Chusovitna (UZB), Elena Piskun (BLR), Dina
Kochetkova (RUS), Yvonne Pioch (GER), Rufina Kreibich (GER), & Nadia
Ziehfreund (GER)

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 18:17:35 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: Catania Cup

I noticed on the WWW page that Rachele has up listing the competitors
that Chen Cuiting (a.k.a. the Asian Comaneci) wasa judge from China.
Anyone know how long she's been a judge?

Jeff

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 18:12:56 EST
From: ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: Nancy Raymond's attack on patriotism

My wife and I have been enjoying the things we get from GYMN for
about two months now. One of the things we so enjoy is the purity of
gymnastics people talking about nothing but gymnastics without the
distractions of modern politics or other unimportant distracters.
In my opinion Nancy Raymond ruined this when on 21 Nov she included a
quote from George Bernard Shaw that read "Patriotism is a pernicious,
psychopathic form of idiocy."

I am a proud member of the 82nd Airborne Division, U.S. Army, and
even before that I was a proud patriot. Nancy attacked me for that
and she attacked patriotism as an idea, even if the words were not
her own but those of an eccentric socialist.

I wonder what any Gymnast that competes at the international level
would have to say if they were presented with that comment, that
having pride in the nation that they represent is "idiotic". I would
imagine that they would disagree to the point of being offended, as I
do.
If this is the type of thing I can look forward to in future postings,
I am afraid that I will have to cancel my subscription and warn my
gymnastics friends that, however subtly, politics get caught up in
the middle of this mailing list.
I'm sorry that our first contribution had to be so negative.

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 20 Nov 1995 to 21 Nov 1995 - Special issue
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