GYMN-L Digest - 11 Mar 1996 to 12 Mar 1996

There are 17 messages totalling 509 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. High School Gymnastics
2. Peter Vidmar Invitational
3. Start Value. (3)
4. 70s Japanese gymnast
5. Dobre
6. Start Value Stats for Worlds (2)
7. Watch out for REPLY!.... see 11 Mar 1996 'SPECIAL ISSUE'
8. Gymnix Senior Commentary (long)
9. Dominique Dawes
10. Japanese Gymnast
11. GYMN-L Digest - 11 Mar 1996 - Special issue (2)
12. Tom Foerster/Doni Thompson
13. non-American gym participation

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:48:35 -0800
From: ***@SCE.COM
Subject: High School Gymnastics

Does anyone have info on which high schools in the greater Los Angeles area
have a girl's gymnastics program? Which colleges in the area have women's
gymnastics (I know of UCLA and Cal State Fullerton)?

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:44:03 -0500
From: ***@UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET
Subject: Peter Vidmar Invitational

I've been off-line for 10 days and just downloaded my 245 messages! I'll be
writing more comments about the American Cup and NBC later. What I didn't
see in the deep pile was results from the Peter Vidmar Invitational held the
weekend of March 2-3. Does anyone have them? The only one I know for sure
is that Timothy P. Vidmar scored a 5.6 on Rings to take the Bronze at Level
6. His *PROUD* father, Peter, called to share that with me.

Chris

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:48:37 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: Start Value.

You know, I think that you may be right and it is more the Judges
interpretation of the CODE that needs to be changed. Though you sight
these problems with un-equal skills being assign ridiculousky simialr
values, the code has always had these problems (remember when a double
turn had the same value as a double full!). I don't have any idea how to
correct this except that the FIG has to catch on quicker and make rule
changes faster and devalue abused ways of getting easy D and E credit.
I've seen some quick changes, such as back in the 80s when EVRYONE
was doing one arm vaults for the 0.1 bonus (which was soon taken away).


As for Olumouc, no, I haven't seen the competition, and perhaps they weren't
all true 10's (neither was Nadia's first on UB in Montreal; Hop on the landing
which should have been deducted), but they are far closer than what goes on
at most NCAA meets. Nothing personally against these athletes, but they often
have form deductions which go well unnoticed and score incredibly high. This
was not always the case. I remember the early 80s (barely) and things were
not like they were now. What happened?

At Olumouc, you had a large population of well trained, peaking gymnasts who
were in Olympic competition form and I am sure that some of those 10s were
earned. I've only seen a couple of NCAA gymnasts who I could possibly
argue that they could get a near perfect score, but now they just give them
away like nothing. Makes no sense, and it only devalues the accomplishment of
the athlete (IMHO)


Jeff Ruell


P.S. Did you know that EUROSPORT has a WWW address? If not, check out:


http://www.eurotv.com

Tell me, has ANYONE EVER ordered gymn video from these people? Do they know
who I can contact????


Jeff

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:49:11 -0800
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: 70s Japanese gymnast

> Who was the Japanese male gymnast who competed in the Olympics
> (probably Montreal) and shredded his knee landing from rings?

Shun Fujimoto, and you're right, it was Montreal.

Debbie :-)

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:41:09 -0500
From: ***@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Subject: Dobre

It was nice to hear Dobre is looking great. But just a slight correction:
She was World Champion in 1987, not 1989. She does indeed live in Maryland with
her husband, a gym owner. She sometimes helps out at the gym as a choreographer
(at least she used to), but I think now devotes most of her time to her
children - she has two. The oldest is a boy; I'm not sure about the younger
one. It was nice to hear she was attending a meet. After she retired she went
through a period of "hating" gymnastics and didn't want anything to do with it
anymore. A friend of mine who knows her said she gets scared watching tapes of
herself from Rotterdam - she can't believe it was really her up on that beam!
Anyway, as far as I know, she is very happy with her husband and family and is
enjoying life now a lot more than she used to. :)

Beth

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:16:25 +1300
From: ***@VOYAGER.CO.NZ
Subject: Start Value Stats for Worlds

W.A.G Stands for Womens Artistic Gymnastics and is the abbreviation used
around these parts. (Australasia)
F.A.G is not a good abbreviation in English.
Someone wanted stats on start values. I have Brisbane, Dortmund, Birmingham
for all apparatus and Vault only for Sabae. Please e-mail me direct if you
have a query on someones S/V.

However some interesting info now that we are near the end of this code.

Average SV's for Comp 11 Average scores
for Comp 11
Birm'ham Brisb Dortmund birm Bris Dort
Vault 9.629 9.788 9.836 9.329 9.35 9.41
bars 9.449 9.670 9.675 8.738 8.96 9.12
beam 9.551 9.627 9.597 8.849 8.9 9.013
floor 9.461 9.667 9.712 8.857 9.06 9.099

Exercises with Start Value of 10.00

BARS '93 8% Beam '93 7%
Floor '93 3%
'94(Bris) 31% '94 15%
'94 23%
'94 (Dort) 21% '94 12.5%
'94 25.5%

Vault
1993 6% 1994 30% 1994 31% 1995 13.1%

Cheers
Avril

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:39:00 -0600
From: ***@MEDICINE.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU
Subject: Watch out for REPLY!.... see 11 Mar 1996 'SPECIAL ISSUE'

Greetings,

With regards the 'SPECIAL ISSUE 11 Mar 1996':-

You might have had other responses, but just in case you are not aware I
thought that I would send a warning about the result of using 'REPLY' when
reading a digest....

If you are not careful you will be sending off a copy of the previous digest
to be recycled into the list. If anybody starts replying to replies, etc.,
the Internet is in for problems!

Just a friendly pointer which is worth watching out for... I have seen a few
examples of 'SPECIAL ISSUES' recently which seem to be caused by the same
REPLY problem.

Regards,

Don
(sent a copy to GYMN for general interest)

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:15:34 -0500
From: ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: Re: Start Value.

> You know, I think that you may be right and it is more the Judges
> interpretation of the CODE that needs to be changed. Though you sight
> these problems with un-equal skills being assign ridiculousky simialr
> values, the code has always had these problems (remember when a double
> turn had the same value as a double full!). I don't have any idea how to

A double turn and a double full still have the same value on FX
(C, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong).

Chris.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:51:54 -0500
From: ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: Gymnix Senior Commentary (long)

Okay, now I'll see what I can make of my notes from the senior
meet (sorry if I repeat any of what Grace has already said).
Well, Dominique Dawes and Oksana Chusovitina were in a class by
themselves in this meet. Dom looked great (although she saved her
Hindorff for finals, and didn't end FX or BB with a full-in as she had at
Classic). Her double layout on FX was mighty impressive, but not as good
as Chusovitina.
I was really impressed with Oksana as well. Wow has she improved
with age! On bars, she added a hop-full Tkatchev combo (she warmed it up
both days, but only competed it in finals), and she should have beaten
Dawes in EF IMHO (Dom had a major knee bend on the swing after her
Hindorff and barely made the following kip while Chusso was solid). One
of the things that impressed me most about Chuso was her beam in AA,
where after being slightly off on her punch front, she improvised a ff
layout as to include an acro series (her PF immediate back tuck is
usually her only one, and so she added the ff layout in order not to lose
the special requirement - what a quick thinker and well conditioned
athlete!) She vaulted a very nice Phelps, and her second V in EF was a
Tsuk full (she got no apparent deduction for doing two vaults in the same
family. Are they in the same family? I mean the Phelps' FIG number is
2.507, whereas other Tsuk entry vaults start with 3. Michel Arsenault
and I had an interesting discussion on this, but we couldn't resolve it).
Marilou Cousineau took third, despite a fall on BB and an extra
swing on UB. Her Geinger and piked Jaeger were very high, and she stuck
her Hristakieva's (which looked remarkably like Yurchenko 1/2s to me).
She pulled off her double front on FX, despite a low landing, and her
middle run was too cool: running front-full punch front step-out RO back
1 1/2 twist. Despite a fall on her two foot layout on BB, her switch
leap immediate Gainer Chen ("the Cousineau) was as good as always.
Reagan Tomasek could have made the medals, but for a sat down
Phelps vault and arabian double on FX. She is a very precise gymnast, and
her bars were very nice with good giant-fulls right on top of the bar (if
you want to know how to make sure the judges give you D for that skill,
watch her do it!) and she also did a nice Gienger and a double front
dismount. On BB, her acro series of ff layout layout to arabesque was a
definite meet highlight.
Veronique Leclerc from Richelieu looked quite good here, and it
was too bad that she fell forward on her double layout UB dismount, since
she had a really neat combo in the middle of the routine: uprise
handstand immediate Tkatchev immediate uprise handstand giant-full
giant-half to overshoot half to handstand. She also completed a nice
arabian double (knees tight together) and a strong piked front V. She
also did a front-on, punch front, consecutive layouts, double stag ring
jump and a 2 tuck on BB. Look for her to be one of Canada's best in 1997.
Soraya Calvalho was very impressive, and it was obvious why she
made AA finals in Sabae. She has very nice form, and some impressive
skills, like a 2.5 twist punch barani on FX. BB was especially nice
(ff-layout-ff-layout, RO ff 2 tuck), and her Tkatchev and Jaeger on UB
showed nice amplitude, as did her piked front V.
One of my personal favourites, Marleen Lavoie from Ortona in
Edmonton (although a Montreal native) had several errors in this meet (an
extra swing after her jaeger) and I'm sure she wished her tick-tock Onodi
combo went as well in the meet as it did in the warm-up (she fell in the
meet but was dead on in warm-up. What a beautiful combo!) She came back
strongly on her last two events with a powerful 2.5 PF on FX, and two
nice Hristakieva's on V to make finals in that event. Many gymnasts
could learn a lot from Marleen, whose toe point, body line, and over-all
exercise presentation were as usual the class of the meet.
Despite several errors, Anastasia Dzundziak of Uzbekistan
provided several highlights, including a cool headspring PF mount on BB.
Her piked Jaeger on UB showed one of the tightest pike positions I have
ever seen, and it was sky high.
Other highlights in the meet were Marie Claude Boucher
(Gymnacenter in Montreal)'s sky high Tkatchev (easily the best in the
meet; Stephanie Hyett's were nice too) and pike open layout dismount; Kim
Allan (Omega)'s layout side somi on BB (her UB double layout was amoung
the best too); and Michelle Sill (Panthers in Manitoba)'s triple turn on
BB in EF (I don't recall this in AA), with a straight free leg, very solid.
All in all, this was a fun meet, although several errors as well
as the absence of the Ukranians (and Webster and Fontaine for the US -
does anyone know their status?) put a slight damper on the level of
performance displayed. Once again, this meet gave the chance for many
up and coming gymnasts (especially the Canadians) to compete with some
world class gymnasts to gain some valuable experience in the future.
Let's hope the tradition continues in the future.

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:56:02 -0800
From: ***@WSUNIX.WSU.EDU
Subject: Dominique Dawes

Has anyone heard about dom lately? The last I heard was that she was
going to attend Stanford for academics and also to compete on their
gymnastics team. Did anyone hear the same thing that I did. I guess
she's eligable because she hasn't accepted any money and therefore under
NCAA rules she can still compete. That would be great to see Dom in the
Pac-10. I'll be the first one at the University of Washington and Stanford
meet, if this is true. If anyone has any information please email me.
thanks. Shelby

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:24:01 -0500
From: ***@YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: Start Value.

> > You know, I think that you may be right and it is more the Judges
> > interpretation of the CODE that needs to be changed. Though you sight
> > these problems with un-equal skills being assign ridiculousky simialr
> > values, the code has always had these problems (remember when a double
> > turn had the same value as a double full!). I don't have any idea how to
>
> A double turn and a double full still have the same value on FX
> (C, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes, that's right.

:)
Adriana

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:45:13 -0500
From: ***@DELPHI.COM
Subject: Japanese Gymnast

Gymners,

"Who was the Japanese male gymnast who competed in the Olympics
(probably Montreal) and shredded his knee landing from rings?
I may have lots of the facts wrong--he may have hurt it earlier
in the competition, I could even be thinking of Munich,etc--but
I vividly remember the TV coverage of his grimace upon landing.
Some of you must know what it is I'm talking about--can anyone
put a name and place on this vague memory?"
------------------------------------------------------------

The gymnast was Shun Fujimoto. He broke his knee cap during his floor
routine in the '76 Olympics.

Gymnastically yours,
David

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:46:33 -0500
From: ***@EROLS.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 11 Mar 1996 - Special issue

> Who was the Japanese male gymnast who competed in the Olympics
> (probably Montreal) and shredded his knee landing from rings?
> I may have lots of the facts wrong--he may have hurt it earlier
> in the competition, I could even be thinking of Munich,etc--but
> I vividly remember the TV coverage of his grimace upon landing.
> Some of you must know what it is I'm talking about--can anyone
> put a name and place on this vague memory?
>
> Thanks.

Well, I didn't remember, even though I'm old enough to remember -- but I did
remember that I had taken the plunge and bought the Olympic Gold CD-Rom and
that it discussed this: it was 1976, and the gymnast was Shun Fujimoto. The
Soviets and Japanese were in a tight race for the team gold, when Fujimoto, a
team leader, had a bad landing on FX & fractured his knee. Nonetheless,
knowing his team needed his score, he competed on rings, including his usual
dismount, landing on the broken leg; the cd-rom says he "stumbled a bit" but
stood it up and scored well, and the Japanese team won its 5th consecutive
gold medal.

I recall that I've heard the story told more stirringly elsewhere recently
(complete with crumpling and stoic interviews, and apparently the use of any
sort of painkillers being barred; perhaps this is on one of the web sites).

This doesn't quite match up with what I recall of olympic order, and I think
the other version of the story suggested more than one post-injury routine,
but in any case this should be the right gymnast! I hope someone else can
provide more detail.

--Ann

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:59:16 -0500
From: ***@YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 11 Mar 1996 - Special issue

> Mary Lynne asked:
>
> > Who was the Japanese male gymnast who competed in the Olympics
> > (probably Montreal) and shredded his knee landing from rings?
>
> that it discussed this: it was 1976, and the gymnast was Shun Fujimoto. The
> Soviets and Japanese were in a tight race for the team gold, when Fujimoto, a
> team leader, had a bad landing on FX & fractured his knee. Nonetheless,
> knowing his team needed his score, he competed on rings, including his usual
> dismount, landing on the broken leg; the cd-rom says he "stumbled a bit" but
> stood it up and scored well, and the Japanese team won its 5th consecutive
> gold medal.
>
> I recall that I've heard the story told more stirringly elsewhere recently
> (complete with crumpling and stoic interviews, and apparently the use of any
> sort of painkillers being barred; perhaps this is on one of the web sites).

The version I've read, from Dave Wallechinsky's Book of the Olympics, says
that in an interview later, Fujimoto was asked whether he would've done
the rings routine if he'd known the pain he would go through. He answered
"no."

> This doesn't quite match up with what I recall of olympic order, and I think
> the other version of the story suggested more than one post-injury routine,

R follows FX with PH in between, so that would check out.

:)
Adriana

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:00:22 -0500
From: ***@YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: Start Value Stats for Worlds

Thanks for the stats! Do you by any chance have similar stats for
previous cycles?

:)
Adriana

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:12:38 -0500
From: ***@EROLS.COM
Subject: Tom Foerster/Doni Thompson

Apparently my post about Tom Foerster's comments on Doni Thompson's
decision to quit gymnastics came off wrong; and I apologize if the tone
appeared to lay into him too hard. I agree with Orion Burdick that most
of his substantive message was that it's not reasonable to rest your
hopes on a teenager -- but there was something about his tone of voice
in saying this that did seem a little unduly miffed at her (given that
I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt and assuming that injuries, as
well as whim, guided her decision -- but don't all of us know
innumerable gymnasts who at about that age decided that the
injury/time/payoff ratio no longer made hardcore competitiveness
worthwhile to the particular gymnast? Anyway, perhaps I should have
added that what caught me by surprise here was that I am generally a big
fan of the Foerster's style, and so I was wondering if anyone else heard
a little bit of an edge here too (and of course it hasn't been the best
couple of months for them). I did make a fairly harsh comment at the
end, but it's directed at NBC (which seemed to be trying to
construct a drama related to the Foersters losing top gymnasts to
other coaches and to young girls' decisions to quit) rather than at Tom;
but on rereading the post, I can see why that might have been missed on
a quick read. (if you really want to see it again, email me and if I
can find it, I'll repost; but really, this was supposed to be a tossoff
comment in a post designed to update those who weren't around for the
last bout of "why did she quit" questions). I was genuinely curious
what others thought of how Tom came off.

Anyway, perhaps being overly defensive, but just wanted to clarify that
i understood what Tom said -- but still found something a little
puzzling about the style of the interview.

--Ann

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:33 +1000
From: ***@OZEMAIL.COM.AU
Subject: non-American gym participation

Regarding Jeff Ruell's question about how non-American gymners get their
info, well, the answer is, in Australia anyway, with great difficulty!

Many times on this forum I have lamented the lack of media coverage of
gymnastics in Australia. Joanna Hughes recently competed in American Cup,
and the only way I knew about it was through someone's post.

Actually, since Kasumi Takahashi won all those gold medals at 1994
Commonwealth Games, she gets snippets of coverage. More recently, she has
appeared in television commercials for Trim and Terrific milk.

Hopefully, with the Olympics coming up, the Australian media will turn their
attention toward gymnastics. Our nationals are being held this week, so I
expect I shall see bits and pieces here and there. But I wouldn't put my
money on more than a 5 minute piece on "Sportsworld"

Actually, for all the Aussies on GYMN, if you have Optus Vision, I've
noticed that they televise some events, even NCAA! But there, even a lot of
it is on in the early hours of the morning.

Simone

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 11 Mar 1996 to 12 Mar 1996
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