GYMN-L Digest - 1 Apr 1996 to 2 Apr 1996

There are 14 messages totalling 521 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. TOPS Testing in California
2. <No subject given> (2)
3. Kodak Commercial
4. PAUL IS THE MAN
5. Reply to:Dominque Moceanu (5)
6. Moceanu and school
7. "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes"
8. Tickets for men's event - Olympics
9. USAG Collegiate Championships

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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:30:46 -0800
From: ***@SCE.COM
Subject: TOPS Testing in California

Does anyone know the date and location for the TOPS testing that is
supposed to be in June in Southern California? Please e-mail me directly
if you do, I'm trying to time summer camp for my daughter.

Thanks

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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:33:21 -0800
From: ***@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: <No subject given>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Subject: Western Open Rhythmic Gym. Championships
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92a.960401141626.6884C-100000@saul6.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


WHAT: One of two Qualifying meets to 1996 National Rhythmic
Gymnastics Championships

A USAG sponsored event

Local Organizing Committee: Anelias Rhythmic Academy and Silhouette
Academy of RSG

Co Meet Directors Karen Walter (206)771-3736 & Debby Kemper (206)858-8762


WHEN: May 11 and May 12, 1996

WHERE: Mountlake Terrace High School
25 Miles North of Seattle, WA
I-5 North Exit #181
Take Right go up hill about 1/2 mile
Mountlake Terrace H.S. is on your left.


TIMES: (Subject to change depending on the # of Gymnasts)

9 - 5 p.m.

Juniors will be first about 9 - 12 Noon
Seniors will be around 12 Noon - 5 p.m.

2 apparatus per day. Juhiors Rope, Hoop, Ribbon, Clubs
Seniors Rope, Ball, Ribbon, Clubs

Admission FREE - Donation of $3 for Programs greatly appreciated.

This will be a great meet as Senior National members Kristin Lee, Kesi
Kemper and Junior National member Diana Quirin will be competing. There
may well be other National Team members as well, however the registrations
are not due until April 12, 1996!

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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 19:11:53 -0500
From: ***@PHOENIX.PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Kodak Commercial

Hi-

I just wanted to add a thought about the whole pre-Olympic pressure for
Moceanu discussion. It seems to me that participation in the commercial
was an _optional_ thing for Dominique to do. I'm sure that means she was
aware that "Atlanta 1996" would be flashed on the screen beside her, and
I'm also assuming that she was paid to be in it. Therefore, whether she
deserves all of the pre-Olympic hype or not, I do not think that Kodak is
"victimizing" her by adding unfair pressure; she accepted the position of
being the Altanta 1996 symbol voluntarily.


-emily

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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 16:27:33 -0800
From: ***@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: <No subject given>

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:25:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Western Open Rhythmic Gym. Championships


WHAT: One of two Qualifying meets to 1996 National Rhythmic
Gymnastics Championships

A USAG sponsored event

Local Organizing Committee: Anelias Rhythmic Academy and Silhouette
Academy of RSG

Co Meet Directors Karen Walter (206)771-3736 & Debby Kemper (206)858-8762


WHEN: May 11 and May 12, 1996

WHERE: Mountlake Terrace High School
25 Miles North of Seattle, WA
I-5 North Exit #181
Take Right go up hill about 1/2 mile
Mountlake Terrace H.S. is on your left.


TIMES: (Subject to change depending on the # of Gymnasts)

9 - 5 p.m.

Juniors will be first about 9 - 12 Noon
Seniors will be around 12 Noon - 5 p.m.

2 apparatus per day. Juhiors Rope, Hoop, Ribbon, Clubs
Seniors Rope, Ball, Ribbon, Clubs

Admission FREE - Donation of $3 for Programs greatly appreciated.

This will be a great meet as Senior National members Kristin Lee, Kesi
Kemper and Junior National member Diana Quirin will be competing. There
may well be other National Team members as well, however the registrations
are not due until April 12, 1996!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 20:08:27 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: PAUL IS THE MAN

In a message dated 96-04-01 00:39:45 EST, you write:

>Paul O'Neill. Paul is a specialist - he does nothing except SR. Again I
>find myself agreeing with Peter Vidmar's comment. For his size, Paul has to
>be one of the strongest men on the planet! He certainly showed that on one
>of the longest, strongest routines I've ever watched. When he crossed his
>leg during the cross, I laughed at Peter's comment - "Yeah, he's just
>rubbing it in for those of us who can't do that!" Right Pete! I noticed
>your crosses were always so poor!


Paul - is the strongest person I have ever had the pleasure to share a work
out with... there is no one... you can match the guy... and the guy is almost
30 now!!! If there is a fan club for this guy... sign me up. He should be
the USA strength coach... we would benefit!!!

Mike Mayzak

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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 20:23:13 -0500
From: ***@INETNOW.NET
Subject: Reply to:Dominque Moceanu

Today I read a mostly interesting reply to my message Saturday. I just KNEW
there would be some apologist for the ass-kicking and brutality in "women's"
gymnastics. First let's set the record straight.

1) I saw a TV program aired in Atlanta entitled "Minute by mniute with
Brenda Wood". The program had a segment on "women's" gymnastics. They
interviewed Shannon Miller, Steve Nunno, and a host of others, including
Celle's Stack's mother and Dominque Moceanu. Dominuque Moceanu said she quit
school and was taking correspondance courses. I said that I was not
surprised because some elite gymnasts quit school to train full time for
gymnasts. But in the interview, she looked tired and burned-out. Now I see
this woman, Melissa Kurlan, posting a message saying she saw a bundle of
energy at an exhibiton or show, or something, two weeks ago. So what!? I saw
a tired young lady on interview. It was a candid, up-close interview. Brenda
was asking the hard questions. She wasn't pulling any punches with anybody.
Bela "Lagosi" ran like a scared dog when she came up. His Ford Explorer
nearly ran into a tree speeding away.

2)Melissa was screaming that people were trying to make decisions for the
gymnasts. That's not true. Whenever somebody raises questions about the long
term effects of very hard, intensive training for preadolescent to
adolescent young women, we are evil meanies. I don't want to make decisions
for anybody. But I'll be damned if I am going to let anybody try to shout me
down for telling the truth. That goes for women's gymnastics, men's
gymnastics, politics, the weather, etc. Spade is a spade and the truth is
the truth, and a lie is a lie. Bela Karolyi has a known PROVEN history of
abusing his charges for his own gains.

3)As for her answering questions, she explained why she dropped out of
school. Ok, so what. I am going to come on out and say it, no holds barred,
no punches held- 1) These elite gymnasts are taught how to behave in public
and in interviews. Dominque is also pretty good in public interaction. These
gymnasts are taught what to say, how to say it, when to say it, etc. Shannon
Miller was also interviewed in the "Minute to minute" piece. She blabbered
the party line about how all the hell she wen through was because she wanted
to do it. Well, that's a damned lie. I know for a fact, from specific, very
reliable sources, that SOME of what she has done and gone through was not
through her own will. I know for a fact, that she wanted to quit gymnastics
a year or two ago, but was coerced out of it. I will not go into specific
details of the things she did not want to do, but was forced to do, but some
of those things are related to her participation on certain meets, her
interaction with the public, etc.

4)We need all need to realize the ENORMOUS pressure we are putting on these
young women. Dominque Moceanu, for example. She is shown with gold medal
winners in Kodak commercials. She is portrayed as the greatest thing to come
along since white bread and running water, by the Atlanta Journal and other
media. Shannon Miller has been under pressure since Barcelona, since she won
those medals. Dominque has won only TWO major medals- an all-around gold
medal at the 95 nationals and a silver medal on balance beam at the 95
Worlds. She was been compared to Nadia Comenci, just because she looks a
little like her and trains with Bela Lagosi. What happens if she busts in
Atlanta? You can tell Shannon Miller burned out like a light. For what? And
what nobody, EVER, EVER, talks about is that these girls don't make any
money from all of this hell. Sports agents have admitted that women's
gymnasts are hard to place for endorsements, because they lack sex appeal.
What has Shannon Miller gotten for being burned out and stalked (yes,
remember, the overjealous fan. He didn't mean any harm, but he scared this
shy, young women).

Don't try to shout me down. I know and I will tell, and tell, and tell. I
know more than a lot of people know.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 19:25:37 -0700
From: ***@ASU.EDU
Subject: Moceanu and school

For those who believe that it's impossible for an athlete to be
focused and ready for the Olympics without taking on correspondence
courses, I have two words: Shannon Miller. I believe she continued to
attend school even though she was training for the Olympics; and we all
know she performed exceptionally there. I am not criticizing anyone for
making a personal decision about his/her child's education. Lots of kids are
homeschooled or take correspondence courses for a variety of non-athletic
reasons. I am saying that it is not accurate to say that you _can't_ train
properly for the Olympics and attend school at the same time.

Leslie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:05:54 -0400
From: ***@VAXC.HOFSTRA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reply to:Dominque Moceanu

Hi Everyone,
I consider myself to be somewhat a quiet member of this group. However,
I am going to state my opinion. This whole dominique discussion has
really caused me to think. Yes she is a defenite contender for the
olympics but lets not go overboard. To be honest, her form sucks. Some
of the high scores she gets she shoudn't because of poor form. Look at
Mary Beth Arnold. She has gorgeous form and excellent routines yet she
doesn't get half the attention that dom gets.
Or what about kerri Strug the "silent hero of the American Team" She
has been performing with dignity and grace, and is NEVER mentioned among
the contenders. Ewven the article in IG wasn't very complimentary to
her. This country as well as the sport centers on reputation. Kerri
should have beaten mo in Sabae, but mo was more known.
My point is that everyone should stop carrying on about dom and shannon,
because there are over ten girls who could possibly get births to
atlanta. While it is fine to speculate(I doi all the time) about who
will represent the US, don't forget that whoever performs the best in
Nationals and trials will make the team. If dom falls or is too tired
then she won't make the team, and KODAK will have to redo there commercial.
There I have had my say,
Hope to hear everyone's opinions.
Alisa

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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:13:52 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes"

I just read someone's request (I think it was Vicki?) about a 60 Minutes
episode on "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes". I read that book and I found it
very interesting. I would also like to have a copy of that if anyone has
it......
Please e-mail me in private. Thanks.

Jenny

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:28:41 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Reply to:Dominque Moceanu

In a message dated 96-04-01 22:10:09 EST, you write:

>Kerri
>should have beaten mo in Sabae, but mo was more known.

This is pretty ridiculous, maybe not ONLY because Mo fell. Mo Huilan had
equivalent difficulty, if not more, than Kerri. Mo has more originality, and
better form and flexibility. Besides, if anything I think taht Kerri is more
known than Mo, afterall Kerri has been near the top since 1992. Judges know
that. Mo is well known, but her difficulty and form and originality is
better than Kerri. I see your point a little bit only because Mo fell

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:30:18 -0600
From: ***@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU
Subject: Re: Reply to:Dominque Moceanu

I think you can make a point for both Kerri and Dominique, both of you.

1) I think the focus on DOminique is due to her status as the top
ranked American, at least from the USA Championships results. Also,
right or wrong, Dominique WAS the top US finisher in Sabae in the
all-around, and also the only individual medalist. So, she is considered
one of America's top hopes, and since it is an American commerical
(a fact I'm surprised not more people have mentioned) and America is
know for supporting it's gymnastics darlings, well....let's just say
I'm not surprised they chose her. Personally, I would've gone for
Shannon, but hey, she's not the young star anymore.

2) I said above that, right or wrong, Moceanu was the top American.
Well, I think it was wrong. Given what Kerri did in Sabae, she very
likely could've been fifth, ahead of Moceanu. I think Kerri was ripped
on bars and floor, enough to cost her a place or two. Having not seen
the other two events, she may have gained more.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 00:55:02 EST
From: ***@COMPUSERVE.COM
Subject: Tickets for men's event - Olympics

I am looking for tickets for the men's event in Atlanta. Could somebody give me
clues/phone numbers.

Many thanks

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 01:30:22 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: USAG Collegiate Championships

My times may not be exact on this, however I'll give it a shot.

USAG Collegiate Championships
Seattle Pacific University

April 18 Womens' Team Preliminary
5:00pm

April 19 Mens' Division II and Club Team Finals
1:00pm

April 19 Womens' Team Final (Super Four)
6:00pm

April 20 Mens and Womens Event Finals
6:00pm

Times shouldn't be wrong by more than one hour.

Dean

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 01:58:46 -0500
From: ***@GOOFY.UMD.EDU
Subject: Re: Reply to:Dominque Moceanu

>Today I read a mostly interesting reply to my message Saturday. I just KNEW
>there would be some apologist for the ass-kicking and brutality in "women's"
>gymnastics. First let's set the record straight.
>
>1) I saw a TV program aired in Atlanta entitled "Minute by mniute with
>Brenda Wood". The program had a segment on "women's" gymnastics. They
>interviewed Shannon Miller, Steve Nunno, and a host of others, including
>Celle's Stack's mother and Dominque Moceanu. Dominuque Moceanu said she quit
>school and was taking correspondence courses. I said that I was not
>surprised because some elite gymnasts quit school to train full time for
>gymnasts. But in the interview, she looked tired and burned-out. Now I see
>this woman, Melissa Kurlan, posting a message saying she saw a bundle of
>energy at an exhibiton or show, or something, two weeks ago. So what!? I saw
>a tired young lady on interview. It was a candid, up-close interview. Brenda
>was asking the hard questions. She wasn't pulling any punches with anybody.
>Bela "Lagosi" ran like a scared dog when she came up. His Ford Explorer
>nearly ran into a tree speeding away.

So what's your point? Dominuque Moceanu was looking tired during her
interview and you equated that to being burned out. What are your
credentials? Are you a parent, teacher, psychologist?

>2)Melissa was screaming that people were trying to make decisions for the
>gymnasts. That's not true. Whenever somebody raises questions about the long
>term effects of very hard, intensive training for preadolescent to
>adolescent young women, we are evil meanies. I don't want to make decisions
>for anybody. But I'll be damned if I am going to let anybody try to shout me
>down for telling the truth. That goes for women's gymnastics, men's
>gymnastics, politics, the weather, etc. Spade is a spade and the truth is
>the truth, and a lie is a lie. Bela Karolyi has a known PROVEN history of
>abusing his charges for his own gains.

(start music) ... and the sun will come out tomorrow etc...

I hate to be one to defend Bela as I'm not all that sure that he does
not *always* have the gymnasts best interest at heart. But... this
man has been blind-sided *many* times by tabloid type media folks. I'm
not surprised that he didn't want to answer questions.

>3)As for her answering questions, she explained why she dropped out of
>school. Ok, so what. I am going to come on out and say it, no holds barred,
>no punches held- 1) These elite gymnasts are taught how to behave in public
>and in interviews. Dominque is also pretty good in public interaction. These
>gymnasts are taught what to say, how to say it, when to say it, etc.

O.K., I'll come out and say it. BULLSHIT! Here is where you don't
know what the hell you're talking about. Oh, I'm not doubting that
you *might* be right for Shannon... and maybe even for Moceanu but
these are not the only elite gymnasts in the United States. You see
my daughter goes to another gym that has a pretty good gymnast and I
spend a lot of time there... Hill's Gymnastics... You might have
heard of this gymnast that goes there... her name is Dawes... Plus
Larissa Fontaine, Regan Tomasak, Marianna Webster and other elites...
and you know what... they seem to be enjoying their time there.
Marianna is even competing on her high school team. Sure, on any
given night you might hear Kelli raising her voice... (O.K., yelling)
but what coach, parent, or significant other doesn't? ... And of
course its hard work... a-duuuh? And let me tell you that her
(Hill's) gym is not the only one with high level gymnasts. What about
Amanda Borden's coaches, and the late Stormy Eaton? You don't see
these coaches being interviewed by these bullshit journalists because
there is no tabloid news! I can see the headlines now... No Abuse
Found at Hill's Gymnastics... News and Film at 11:00.

>Shannon
>Miller was also interviewed in the "Minute to minute" piece. She blabbered
>the party line about how all the hell she wen through was because she wanted
>to do it. Well, that's a damned lie. I know for a fact, from specific, very
>reliable sources, that SOME of what she has done and gone through was not
>through her own will. I know for a fact, that she wanted to quit gymnastics
>a year or two ago, but was coerced out of it. I will not go into specific
>details of the things she did not want to do, but was forced to do, but some
>of those things are related to her participation on certain meets, her
>interaction with the public, etc.

Forced to do? Look, I don't like Steve Nunno either. I don't like
the was he and Shannon came off during the 1994 Worlds when she walked
out on the team... but he and Bela are not the GODS of coaching, so
don't talk about him (and Bela) like the are. As far as accusations,
don't wimp out, go into specific details if you actually know
something.

>4)We need all need to realize the ENORMOUS pressure we are putting on these
>young women. Dominque Moceanu, for example. She is shown with gold medal
>winners in Kodak commercials. She is portrayed as the greatest thing to come
>along since white bread and running water, by the Atlanta Journal and other
>media.

So blame the Atlanta Journal. If you look at the history of gymnasts
under Bela and Steve you will notice that, in general, they (the
gymnasts) go "pro" very early in their athletic lives. Perhaps this
is because of what Bela and Steve charge, perhaps it is just bad
advice. I'm sure that Moceanu has already gone pro (she accepted the
gold guitar at the Rock and Roll meet), so why not make as much as she
can while she has the chance. I don't agree with it, but I'm not the
one paying the bills.

>Shannon Miller has been under pressure since Barcelona, since she won
>those medals. Dominque has won only TWO major medals- an all-around gold
>medal at the 95 nationals and a silver medal on balance beam at the 95
>Worlds. She was been compared to Nadia Comenci, just because she looks a
>little like her and trains with Bela Lagosi.

Insults like this just further my (low) opinion of you.

>What happens if she busts in
>Atlanta? You can tell Shannon Miller burned out like a light. For what? And
>what nobody, EVER, EVER, talks about is that these girls don't make any
>money from all of this hell. Sports agents have admitted that women's
>gymnasts are hard to place for endorsements, because they lack sex appeal.

What????? Don't make *any* money? What sports agents are you talking
about? Cite your sources! I'll admit that it might be hard for all
but the best, but there is *some* money to be made... just ask Mary Lou
(I think it was 19 million???)

>What has Shannon Miller gotten for being burned out and stalked (yes,
>remember, the overjealous fan. He didn't mean any harm, but he scared this
>shy, young women).

Again... What's your point?

>Don't try to shout me down. I know and I will tell, and tell, and tell. I
>know more than a lot of people know.

Then tell, just don't make accusations. But don't try to condem an entire
sport just because of two (maybe) bad eggs.
--
Steve

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 1 Apr 1996 to 2 Apr 1996
***********************************************