GYMN-L Digest - 12 Apr 1995 to 13 Apr 1995

There are 24 messages totalling 585 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. tatiana groshkova (3)
2. Susan Tiedtke
3. Moste (was re: groshie)
4. more Oscars
5. 1996 Team.
6. Wondering
7. Retton's a mom
8. Hilary Grivich (2)
9. predicting (3)
10. nadia's 10
11. Favorites on Events: (3)
12. Hilary Grivach
13. Picks for 96 Olympic Team (2)
14. Zmeskal's 10's
15. Coaching Help
16. team 96 predictions

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 14:19:32 +1000
From: ***@STUDENT.GU.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: tatiana groshkova

In anwer to the question about Groshkova:

> I know she was in the circus but if she still is I don't know.

I was told in 1993 that she had left the circus and gone to work in
Holland (I think, it could have been Belgium) for a short period of time,
unfortunately while there she missed the application deadline to enter
the Moscow Phisical Institute. I have no idea if she re-applied for last
year.

BTW, although the discussion about "soviet swapping" seems to have died,
I thought I'd post this quote of Mostepanova's that I recieved a few
years ago. I have no clue as to the original source.....

Mostepanova on she and Baraksanova being replaced at 85 Worlds:

"The measure might be sound, appropriate, because I was not on the top
after the qualification, Ecaterina Szabo was on top. It means Gold is
only worthy, silver has no worth. But there was no way to comfort us.
We were told to be replaced just before the AA. Irina and I were in the
hotel. I did nothing but sob, Irina always comforted me for her life. I
learned a lesson from this experience. I will never give such a terrible
experience to one of my pupils."

So, I've got to ask, does this change anyones view on the Soviets right
to exchange athletes? It amuses me that Galieva still retains her knee
injury story, even though no-one believes it!

Michelle

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:27:29 MET
From: ***@SEPA.TUDELFT.NL
Subject: Re: tatiana groshkova

In answer to the question about Groshkova:

> I know she was in the circus but if she still is I don't know.

I was told in 1993 that she had left the circus and gone to work in
Holland (I think, it could have been Belgium) for a short period of
time, unfortunately while there she missed the application deadline
to enter the Moscow Phisical Institute. I have no idea if she
re-applied for last year.


- She was training in Holland (I believe she competed in the Dutch
Nationals one year) but she went back to Moscow.
The Moscow circus has got several different casts and circusses.
It is like the Holiday on Ice shows, different shows in different
places.
Chantal

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:54:56 GMT
From: ***@ACHILLES.DEMON.CO.UK
Subject: Susan Tiedtke

In answer to Debbie's question, Yes: Susan Tiedtke the gymnast and
Susan Tiedtke the long jumper are one and the same. I remember
watching her at some athletics competition some months back and
the commentator (BBC, probably) was specifically talking about how
she had come into track and field after an earlier career in gymnastics.
Not that I can recall actually seeing her compete as a gymnast, though
her name is listed in the '83 Champions All as Debbie said. Anyone out
there remember what her form was like?

Actually I watched her long jumping particularly closely after the
commentator brought up her gym background and it did strike me that
she ran in more evenly and fluently than most of her rivals. I think
she was just shy of the medals, but probably among the top ten long
jumpers in the world. Shame about the drugs, but then with the ex-DDR
what's new?

BTW, on the matter of East German sport-to-sport crossovers, I seem to
remember Maxi Gnauck could have gone for track and field or ice skating
before she opted for gymnastics.

--
Frances

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 04:24:21 -0700
From: ***@ASU.EDU
Subject: Moste (was re: groshie)

> So, I've got to ask, does this change anyones view on the Soviets right
> to exchange athletes? It amuses me that Galieva still retains her knee
> injury story, even though no-one believes it!

I think it's sad of course! But instead of implimenting a rule
designed to prevent replacement (ie substitution not allowed in case of
injury etc) the current rules limiting athletes should be changed.
Little anecdote, Shushunova (who w/ Omelianchik replaced Moste
and Baraksonova) said that it was common knowledge that M and B were in
"bad mental spirits" or something and not prepared for the All-around.
Or that is what the coaching staff (was it Rodienko's decision?) told her
or the like. ???

Amanda

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 04:38:33 -0700
From: ***@ASU.EDU
Subject: more Oscars

More stuff

vault:

best salute- Boginskaya
best block- Podkopayeva

bars:

best handstands- Lu Li
best Stalder- Gabrielle Faehnrich
best Pak- Khorkina
best double layout- Lebedeva
best transitions- Lu Li (see Chunichi 93)

beam:

best hands- Fabrichnova
best double back- Lu Li
best fish jump- Ludmilla Prince
best arms- Yurkina #1
best layout-on- Yurchenko
best full twist- Groscheva
most inspiring Rulfova- Yang Bo

floor:

Svetlana (take your pick)

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:17:34 -0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: 1996 Team.


> > Even with the men it is impossible. Remember someone named Dan Hayden?
>
> The only guy I've ever seen do a Kovacs without tucking. I've not
> watched as much men's gymnastics, but I haven't heard of anyone doing it
> without tucking.

Roberto Aldazabal of Cuba used to do a layout Kovacs (I've seen it), so
that's one guy.

:)
Adriana

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:18:45 -0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: tatiana groshkova

> So, I've got to ask, does this change anyones view on the Soviets right
> to exchange athletes? It amuses me that Galieva still retains her knee
> injury story, even though no-one believes it!

Given that Gutsu split the money she got for winning AA with Galieva, it
would be in poor taste for her to complain. Although I suppose she *could*
say it wasn't true without actually complaining. Still, doing so might be
hurtful to Gutsu, who isn't to blame and was so nice.

:)
Adriana

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:54:23 -0500
From: ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: Re: Wondering

Picks for '96: Miller and Dawes, barring serious injury. Probably Strug,
Borden, and Jennie Thompson. I know it's a longshot, but I'd love to see
Donnie Thompson on the team. She's somewhat inconsistent, but when she
hits, she's amazing! Will she be old enough?

I haven't seen Kim since the comeback, but good for her if she can pull it off.

Ilene, who'll get around to introducing herself in the next few days.

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:12:22 CDT
From: ***@ADMIN.STEDWARDS.EDU
Subject: Retton's a mom

USA Today reports that Mary Lou and her husband are the proud parents of a baby
girl, born Wednesday. Her name: Shayla Rae Kelly.

Cole

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:25:17 -0400
From: ***@ORL.MMC.COM
Subject: Re: Hilary Grivich

|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>> I think Bela filed protests on all of her optional scores, but to no
>> avail.

Just a minor point, but you do not file "protests" on gymnast's scores,
you file inquiries. (judges get picky about the "P" word)


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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 07:59:13 -0700
From: ***@ASU.EDU
Subject: predicting

There's no point, really.

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:55:31 -0400
From: ***@BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: Re: nadia's 10

> this perfect 10 bar routine has one or more major flaws-the most obvious
> being small steps on the landing after ehr dismount-adrienne
>
I noticed a mistake in her bar routine too, but it was only a small hop
on the landing, not a few small steps. I know that sounds like I'm
nitpicking, but it does make a difference - a few steps are a bigger
deduction than a hop. But I do agree - now, a routine with such a hop
would not receive a 10. Don't get me wrong - I think Nadia is one of the
greatest gymnasts of all time and is one of my personal favorites. That
was just one thing that I noticed when watching the replay of that routine.
Beth =]

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:11:26 -0400
From: ***@BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: Re: Favorites on Events:

>
> > Oksana Chusovitina: Illustrates (as Brandy does) that traditional
> > approach vaults are just as good as the RO variety and makes Mary Lou's
> > perfect ten layout Tsuk full look horrible by comparison.

Don't forget about Kim Zmeskal. She's one of the most powerful vaulters
and she knows that the landing counts too. How many perfect 10's did she
get on vault? '91 Worlds team competition was the first, I think. I think
the best were at Nationals and Olympic Trials, where she got 10's on both
vaults. How great that would be now with the new Code, averaging both
vaults?!
Beth =]

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:23:11 -0400
From: ***@BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: Re: Hilary Grivich

> << What did ever happen to Hilary Grivich>>
>
> According to Bela Karolyi (in his book) and Kim Zmeskal (in her column in USA
> Gymnastics), Hilary is (or at least was) participating in diving and hoping
> to get a scholarship. I agree with Bela that she was underscored at
> Trials--she would have been a great opener in Barcelona. I never understood
> the 9.287 she recieved on bars. I think Bela filed protests on all of her
> optional scores, but to no avail. I really liked her, too. She was always
> so positive and unselfish, always the first to congradulate anyone!
>
I agree with all that you said and I think that the '91 Worlds really
shows that.
Beth =]

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 12:39:19 -0400
From: ***@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU
Subject: Re: predicting

I'm not going to come out and make any predictions, since I
haven't seen some of these gymnasts in the last several months, but I was
wondering, wouldn't it be awfully confusing if both Doni and Jennie
Thompson AND Dominique Moceanu and Dominique Dawes made it? (Not to
mention if swimmer JENNY Thompson's also there!)

-Emily
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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:57:38 -0500
From: ***@MAIL.COIN.MISSOURI.EDU
Subject: Re: predicting

> There's no point, really.
>

Sure there is no point; but it is fun and keeps some conversation going.

--Michael

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:39:00 PDT
From: ***@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Hilary Grivach

While Hilary was competing I must admit I thought of her as sort
of a poor man's Kim Zmeskal. You know, in mathematical terms she
is (Kim Zmeskal) - (whatever redeeming qualities Kim might have), like
I think once Kim tried to straighten her legs or point her toes.. and
well, Hilary never did.

However, since Hilary retired I have begun to see her in a new light.
SHe was quite the originator. While others tried to hide or mask
their weaknesses, Hilary flaunted hers. HOw brave she must be. While
others tried to pretend they were better than average, Hillary was
strong enough to wallow in mediocrity, daring people to find something
in her worth watching. Hillary was gutsy enough to show us that
sheer averageness can almost make the Olympic team. What a model
for us all.



-Brett

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 14:43:12 -0400
From: ***@ZEUS.TOWSON.EDU
Subject: Picks for 96 Olympic Team

I agree that this might be a little early, but here are my picks
for the moment.

Shannon Miller
Dominique Moceanu
Jennie Thompson
Dominique Dawes
Doni Thompson
Kristy Powell
Kim Zmeskal/Amy Chow

A couple of notes on this:
1. Bogi cannot compete for America even though she wants to.
The standard time for citzenship is 5 yrs. unless an
exemption is granted.
2. In my opinion, the older girls are not a lock(Miller,
Dawes, Borden,etc.)
3. For AA in the olympics, I would say for the U.S.
Miller if she is there, Moceanu(a truely talented gymnast),
and Jeni Thompson if she is not injuried.
4. For the rest of the world
Romania- Milosevich, Gogean, Marisencu (Alexandria)-she is the
reigning junior European Champion
China- Mo Huilan
Ukraine- Lilla Podkepayva
Russia- Khorkina, Kotcheva



I hope I brought a little sunshine to your day.


THE MIKESTER BEE

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 17:16:07 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Zmeskal's 10's

<<How many 10's did she get on vault>>

In her USA Gymnastic column, Kim says she received 10 perfect 10's--7 on her
Yurchenko layout full twisting vaults and the other 3 on the floor. Does
anyone know which American woman owns the most 10's?

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 20:15:19 -0600
From: ***@MERLE.ACNS.NWU.EDU
Subject: Re: Coaching Help

>> Does anyone out there have experience working with handicapped
>> gymnasts? I have a new student in the gym who has no legs.
>> After the first class, I realized that almost every skill would
>> need to be modified for him. None of the standard progressions
>> are going to work for him. I was wondering if anyone has
>> developed progressions for some basic and/or intermediate skills
>> that they would be willing to share.

I agree with Texx -- this is a really interesting problem!



>> 1. Backward roll. He does fine on the incline, but
>> without the weight of legs to pull himself over he
>> gets stuck on a flat surface.
>>
>> 2. Tap swing. I'm really stuck on this. Any of you
>> biomechanics folks out there know if this is possible?
>
Texx responded:
>I never intended to go into computers. I planned to do biomedical engineering.
>Hmmm.. Id say its doable depending on the lenght/control he has of the spine.
>My guess is that he could learn to "tap" entirely with the back.


Well, I do biomedical engineering but I don't know very much about the
mechanics and fine motor control of the spine. Like Texx, I would guess
that he could learn to generate a tap entirely within the back, but I'm not
sure how powerful it would be. It might be hard to get much of a
"whipping" action since motion in the spine is spread over many vertebrae
(the degree of rotation between individual vertebra is pretty small) and
most muscles cross multiple joints.

I'm wondering if a weight belt secured around his hips would help at all???
-- this would change his moment of inertia, and it might exaggerate the
desired effect while learning.



>Perhaps with this different centre of gravity, he may have an advantage.
>I bet he has an easier time balancing while handwalking.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with my college coach one time. He
was new to women's gymnastics and couldn't figure out why some of us were
having problems with press handstand mounts and straight-body casts (they
were so simple for him) until we reminded him of the difference in the
center of mass location for men and women. The COM for guys is generally
closer to the shoulders; the COM for collegiate women gymnasts is closer to
the hips. this can definitely make a difference ...


-- Allison

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 21:20:53 -0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: Favorites on Events:

> >
> > > Oksana Chusovitina: Illustrates (as Brandy does) that traditional
> > > approach vaults are just as good as the RO variety and makes Mary Lou's
> > > perfect ten layout Tsuk full look horrible by comparison.
>
> Don't forget about Kim Zmeskal. She's one of the most powerful vaulters

I wouldn't even think of putting a gymnast who can do only one decent vault
on the list. Zmeskal may have had a powerful Yurchenko-full, but she
couldn't do a simple handspring front. And she never showed anything
harder, like a Y-double full.

:)
Adriana

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 20:54:01 -0400
From: ***@PRISM.GATECH.EDU
Subject: team 96 predictions

i find it interesting that everyone is 1) prediction the team so early and
2) you are all predicting more 'veterans' than 'little' girls. Personally
i think that the younger girls will by far surpass the older girls within
the year, and also i think that the 'veterans' shopuld almost give the
others a chance to be on the team-i mean they have already been there and
done that-let someone else have a turn!

but here are my pick...

jennie thompson
dominique moceanu
marianna webster (opinions anyone?)
doni thompson
mina kim (depending on age)
kristy powell
jaycie phelps
amanda borden

i guess you'l have to pick 6-7/8! oops!

adrienne

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 22:10:06 -0400
From: ***@TSO.CIN.IX.NET
Subject: Re: Favorites on Events:

Hi there!
In regards to when Kim Z. scoring 10's on vault, I know she had the only
(oops, not the only) 10 of the meet in the 1990 US vs. USSR meet. If memory
serves correctly, she also got one a few days before that at the Goodwill
games, but don't quote me on that one. I can't recall any before that.

In regards to Bogey competing for the US, according to IG she was quoted
as saying that she wants to compete for Belorus. Besdies, the US govt.
is not known for speeding up citizenship for athletes. Just ask Gorsha Sur.
He tried to make the US Olympic skating team, but his paperwork wasn't
processed at the last minute.
:)
Liz

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 22:17:21 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Picks for 96 Olympic Team

: Bogi cannot compete for America even though she wants to.

I'm sorry but I just must comment on this. Svetlana has *never* wanted to
comepte for anyone but her native Belarus. (Not that she doesn't like the
USA; she's said that she's very happy here.) It's Bela, not Svetlana, that
mentions (with much eye rolling from Bogie) "whoever she competes for." If
we are to see Svetlana in her third Olympic Games it will not be for anyone
but Belarus.

-Susan

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 12 Apr 1995 to 13 Apr 1995
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