gymn Digest Mon, 18 Jul 94 Volume 2 : Issue 150

Today's Topics:
Another idea for compulso...
Another idea for compulsories
Gender and Judging (6 msgs)
Johnson comeback?
Marcia Fredrick
Returned mail: User unknown
tapes of USOF EF
Team Worlds (5 msgs)
Tokenism for Tokenism's sake ? (Was Gender and Judging)
Trivia Questions Needed - #19 USSR
TV Notes

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

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Date: Sat, 16 Jul 94 01:02:01 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Another idea for compulso...

Susan pointed out that my idea was mainly like the 89 COP's which were ok
but, didn't challenge the gymnasts much. I'm not sure if I stated my
proposition right. what I meant to say was to incorporate what compulsories
stand for (basic skill, amplitude, taking things to the fullest etc.) into
the COP's somehow. I'm not exactly sure how to do this but, I'm sure it
could be done.---Brian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 23:32:41 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Another idea for compulsories

I have another idea to help out w/ the loss of compulsories. How about, when
FIG produces a new COP's in 97, they incorporate, extension, form and
artistry into the Code so, that can kind of make up for the loss of artistry?
Maybe they can say you have to hit a certain number of 180 degree positions
in leaps, splits etc. Also, why not have a COP's that has the base score at
a 9.4 and you can earn bonus, like now, up to 9.8 and have the gymnast earn
those last two tenths w/ the form, extension and also bring the originality
into this also because we desperatley need that again. This could make up a
little for the loss of compulsories but, keep that requirement for form and
basic skill in there. Being someone involved w/ the entertainment industry
where money is everything, I can understand the financial part of FIG's
reason for dropping compulsories. You'd be surprised how much money you can
lose in just on day of competition. If I were president though, I would
rather preserve tradition and lose some money because compulsories are really
vital to an AA gymnasts perfromance.---Brian



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 23:31:29 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Gender and Judging

To All:
I find it archaic, stunning and bigoted that FIG has some policy (written
or unwritten) that men can't judge women's gymnastics at the highest levels.
This is a modern-day version of being forced to ride in the back of the
bus.
In a sport that deals with so many children, should not FIG be teaching
equality and fairness? Instead, we send a message that because a man is a
man, he can't judge a woman's routine.
Are we saying that the same men who can coach a woman in all the
intricasies of the sport can't also judge in the same sport? If that's the
case, then why isn't the FIG banning men from coaching, too? After all, if
they can't judge a gymnast, then certainly they can't coach, either.
You know, it has taken women hundreds of years to come out from the thumb
of a society ruled by men. Sexist pigs everywhere were forced to realize that
women are equal and have the same rights as men in all avenues of life.
But now an organization that deals with women turns around and says,
"Forget equality. Men can't understand a woman's routine."
I would love to see a man rise to the ranks of Brevet in women's
gymnastics in the United States, gain some seniority and then force FIG to
accept him when the Olympics are held in the United States. When the FIG
plays here, they, by law, cannot break basic U.S. Constitutional rights.
It would give me great joy to see a U.S. judge tell the FIG, "Let this man
judge in the Olympics or gymnastics will not be allowed."
It may not immediately change FIG's attitude, but it would at least force
them for a few weeks to accept basic rights. And perhaps that brief glimpse
would shed enough light into the dark corners of FIG to slowly stop the
bigotry.
--- Ronald

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 23:48:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: <***@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Gender and Judging

Ron wrote:
| I find it archaic, stunning and bigoted that FIG has some policy (written
| or unwritten) that men can't judge women's gymnastics at the highest levels.
^^^^^^^^^
| equality and fairness? Instead, we send a message that because a man is a
| man, he can't judge a woman's routine.
^^^^^^^
| case, then why isn't the FIG banning men from coaching, too? After all, if
^^^^^^^^^^^
| "Forget equality. Men can't understand a woman's routine."
^^^^^^^^^
I just wanted to point out that for starters, I find it amusing, Ron,
that despite the fact that your whole argument is based on the
equality of men and women, you nevertheless only address the issue
that a man cannot judge a women's routine -- never do you mention that
it's also true that a woman cannot judge a man's routine.

| I would love to see a man rise to the ranks of Brevet in women's
| gymnastics in the United States, gain some seniority and then force FIG to
| accept him when the Olympics are held in the United States. When the FIG
| plays here, they, by law, cannot break basic U.S. Constitutional rights.

"Brevet" is an international ranking. You cannot be a "Brevet in
women's gymnastics in the U.S." without passing the tests given by FIG
(I think). Also, I doubt very seriously the FIG would be under the US
Constitution's jurisdiction for meets in the US; it seems similar to
how foreign embassies are not really considered to be on US soil.

| would shed enough light into the dark corners of FIG to slowly stop the
| bigotry.

Geez, a bit dramatic here, Ron? "dark corners of the FIG"? I've been
keeping up on the FIG for awhile, and I've never seen this on their
agenda or in their discussions or heard any talk about this issue --
so, if anything, the "people to blame" are the member nations that
have never brought this up for discussion. It's their responsibility
as much as anyone else's.

Btw, I'm not sure exactly when it changed, but I believe that the FIG
used to allow only same-sex coaches on the floor. I'm guessing that
that changed sometime in the '60's or '70's. Yes, it doesn't make
sense that a coach can train a gymnast of opposite gender yet not be
able to judge them on that same apparatus. A guess on my part though
is that the FIG believes that both a coach & judge can only have true
innate knowledge of gymnastics if they've done it, ie done the
apparatus specific to their gender -- however, the FIG can't control
coaches, really. They can control judges by the issuing of the Brevet
rating. If they could control coaches, maybe they'd be more
consistent and be trying to control that too -- but it's just not
really possible.

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 04:46:47 -0400 (edt)
From: <***@dorsai.dorsai.org>
Subject: Gender and Judging

In 1979 the womens code specified female head coach to supervise team on
the floor. As far as i can remember mens code never said anything about
it but i also think the crossover of women coaching men is so small the
problem has not come up!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:09:42 +1000
From: <***@pharm.med.upenn.edu>
Subject: Gender and Judging

>To All:
> I find it archaic, stunning and bigoted that FIG has some policy (written
>or unwritten) that men can't judge women's gymnastics at the highest levels.
> This is a modern-day version of being forced to ride in the back of the
>bus.
> In a sport that deals with so many children, should not FIG be teaching
>equality and fairness? Instead, we send a message that because a man is a
>man, he can't judge a woman's routine.
> Are we saying that the same men who can coach a woman in all the
>intricasies of the sport can't also judge in the same sport? If that's the
>case, then why isn't the FIG banning men from coaching, too? After all, if
>they can't judge a gymnast, then certainly they can't coach, either.
> You know, it has taken women hundreds of years to come out from the thumb
>of a society ruled by men. Sexist pigs everywhere were forced to realize that
>women are equal and have the same rights as men in all avenues of life.
> But now an organization that deals with women turns around and says,
>"Forget equality. Men can't understand a woman's routine."
> I would love to see a man rise to the ranks of Brevet in women's
>gymnastics in the United States, gain some seniority and then force FIG to
>accept him when the Olympics are held in the United States. When the FIG
>plays here, they, by law, cannot break basic U.S. Constitutional rights.
> It would give me great joy to see a U.S. judge tell the FIG, "Let this man
>judge in the Olympics or gymnastics will not be allowed."
> It may not immediately change FIG's attitude, but it would at least force
>them for a few weeks to accept basic rights. And perhaps that brief glimpse
>would shed enough light into the dark corners of FIG to slowly stop the
>bigotry.
>--- Ronald Dupont, Jr. in Florida


DITTO - only replace "man" for "woman" and "woman" for "man" when
discussing men's gymnastics - although the female coaches are not very
prolific in the world of men's gymnastics. Actually - other than
spectating the number of women at a men's meet is very low - unless you
count the flashers.

I think it reads something like this:
--------------------

I find it archaic, stunning and bigoted that FIG has some policy (written
or unwritten) that women can't judge men's gymnastics at the highest levels.
This is a modern-day version of being forced to ride in the back of the
bus.
In a sport that deals with so many children, should not FIG be teaching
equality and fairness? Instead, we send a message that because a woman is a
woman, she can't judge a man's routine.
Are we saying that the same women who can coach a man in all the
intricasies of the sport can't also judge in the same sport? If that's the
case, then why isn't the FIG banning women from coaching, too? After all, if
they can't judge a gymnast, then certainly they can't coach, either.
You know, it has taken women hundreds of years to come out from the thumb
of a society ruled by men. Sexist pigs everywhere were forced to realize that
women are equal and have the same rights as men in all avenues of life.
But now an organization that deals with men turns around and says,
"Forget equality. Women can't understand a man's routine."
I would love to see a woman rise to the ranks of Brevet in men's
gymnastics in the United States, gain some seniority and then force FIG to
accept her when the Olympics are held in the United States. When the FIG
plays here, they, by law, cannot break basic U.S. Constitutional rights.
It would give me great joy to see a U.S. judge tell the FIG, "Let this woman
judge in the Olympics or gymnastics will not be allowed."
It may not immediately change FIG's attitude, but it would at least force
them for a few weeks to accept basic rights. And perhaps that brief glimpse
would shed enough light into the dark corners of FIG to slowly stop the
bigotry.

--Sorry about the plagerism, but it is a two way street in this sport - not
just one sex is competing, judging and coaching.

Mayland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 11:43:49 PDT
From: ***@geoworks.com
Subject: Gender and Judging

Rachele writes:
> A guess on my part though is that the FIG believes that both a coach &
> judge can only have true innate knowledge of gymnastics if they've done
> it, ie done the apparatus specific to their gender -- however, the FIG
> can't control coaches, really.

Does anyone know about the percentage of top international women's
judges that were former gymnasts (and to what level of gymnast)? I was
told by coaches in my highschool years that the large majority of women's
judges were simply mothers who got involved in their daughter's gymnastics.
If this follows over to the elite and international judges then the
argument about experience is somewhat weakened...

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 21:59:15 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Gender and Judging

>A guess on my part though is that the FIG believes that both a coach & judge
can only >have true innate knowledge of gymnastics if they've done it, ie
done the
>apparatus specific to their gender

Rachele, I would say that you are probably correct in this assumption (ie, it
is my assumption, too ;-) ). Nonetheless, if this is the reasoning the FIG
uses, it shows a level of ignorance that is a discredit to the FIG
specifically and the sport generally.

Believing that one cannot judge an event unless they have done it themselves
is the same as saying that only former baseball players can be umpires, that
only directors can be movie critics, and that only convicted criminals are
qualified to be courtroom judges.

If there was a large subjective element in judging, perhaps the argument
might have a minor point. The fact is, judging takes place according to a
technical code that makes the act of judging an OBJECTIVE one, based entirely
on subjective measures. I read the code, I read Technique, and the trend is
toward greater objectivity.

So to me, there seems to be no rational argument in defense of current
practice.I firmly believe that the gender issue in qualifying judges is a
simple matter of someone or several someones trying to protect their turf.

As to coaching? Ha! Just try to eliminate males from the ranks of women's
coaches. Think of spotting a gymnast on a particularly complex move without
any men around. Worse, think of eliminating all of those male coaches for
women who have done so much to change the sport (our "beloved" Mr. Bela, for
example.)

The entire gender issue is ridiculous, but nobody will make waves on the FIG
without pressure from their home countries and political support from
elsewhere. I am sure that there are hundreds of highly qualified people
around the world grumbling about this, and frustrated because nobody on the
FIG has the power to make it a serious issue.

My $.02.

David

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jul 94 01:48:19 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Johnson comeback?

Beth stated that Brandy Johnson is planning a comeback. Is this true? I
knew she attempted in 92 but, not enough time was available. If it's true,
it'll be great to have Brandy back.---Brian

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jul 94 00:39:38 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Marcia Fredrick

This is an article in a local RI paper about Marcia a "Where are they now?"
type piece. The author (Mike Bogen) said that he didn't mind if I posted it
so here it is ...

By MIKE BOGEN
LITTLE COMPTON, R.I. -- Marcia Frederick remembers the pressure.
Like the girls of the 1992 Olympic Games, or the handful of teenage girls
who have been so advanced that they've played tennis before the Queen of
England, Frederick performed at the highest level of her sport years before
she was old enough to vote.
And she learned, long before such things were finally being considered as
a developmental issue, that it was not easy. "It started the day I walked
into Pioneer (Gymnastics School) and told Leo Leger I wanted to be the best
in the world," says the Springfield native, who in the late 1970's was making
gymnastics history at an age when her peers were making their first dates.
"It never increased, it never decreased. It stayed the same. It was the exact
same internal pressure at the Worlds as when I practiced routines at Pioneer.
I never played with dolls, I never watched cartoons, I just wanted to be the
best."
Indeed, wanting to be the best dominated Frederick's young life. It had
nothing to do with pushy parents or coaches. It had everything to do with
herself.
"Marcia was like a sponge in the gym. Gymnastics was literally her life,"
says Leger. "You didn't have to do much with Marcia. She was doing exactly
what she wanted to do. She slept and ate gymnastics. If you told her to do
skill 10 times, she wouldn't complain that it was hard, wouldn't whine, she'd
do it 10 times. If you walked away and came back, she'd still be doing it."
She was just nine years old.
Frederick and Leger parted, geographically at least, when she chose to go
to Muriel Grossfeld School of Gymnastics. Grossfeld was the coach of the
United States Olympic gymnastics team. It meant moving away from her parents
and her Hungry Hill home to live in a dormitory in Milford, Conn. Charlie and
Christine Frederick were not happy about it.
"They were apprehensive about letting me go into a setting which was
unfamiliar to them," says Frederick. "But my mind was made up. I wanted to be
the best and to compete with the best. She was just 12 years old.
Now 31 and married with a little girl who is just 15 days old, Frederick
was little more than a child herself in 1977 when, for 30 seconds, she was
perfect.
Not good, not great. Perfect. In the most true, most literal sense of the
word. And in that half-minute it took to execute 11 moves on the uneven
parallel bars, Marcia Frederick's life changed.
She was just 14 years old.
"Up until then, the only pressure I had ever been under came from
within,' says Frederick, who has settled quite comfortably in this small
Rhode Island town with Peter Blanchette, her husband of four years, and their
new daughter, Vanessa Gray Blanchette.
"But once I got the 10 (at the 1977 United States Championships, only one
year after Nadia Comaneci stunned the world by scoring 10s at the Montreal
Olympics, and seven years before gymnastics judges started given them out
like penny-candy at Halloween), people noticed me and started having
expectations."
And Frederick lived up to those expectations. The following year she
became the first American woman ever to win a gold medal in international
competition, scoring a near-perfect 9.95 to win the unevens in the World
Gymnastics Championships at Strasbourg, France. In fact, she was only the
second American woman to win any kind of medal in international competition.
Frederick returned home to a roped-off street celebration, television cameras
and people sticking microphones and notebooks in her face.
She was just 15 years old.
She also returned home to more expectations -- both the public's and her
own -- that in 1980 she would be the one to finally end her country's history
of having never won an Olympic women's gymnastics medal.
Those expectations, however, would never be fulfilled. In 1979, her
attempt to win a second gold medal at the World Championships came to an
abrupt end when she fell off the bars twice and balance beam once.
"That was the first time I ever cried in an arena," she recalls. "I
messed up and just didn't have a good competition. I really felt the media
pressure going into that meet. They came down on me pretty hard during 1979."
This time when Frederick returned home, there were no cameras, no
microphones, no notebooks. There were only her bedroom and her thoughts.
"It affected me for a week," she says. "I had humiliated myself. I'd lost
my gold medal and I was overweight.
She was just 16 years old.
But, there were still the Moscow Olympics. And Frederick knew it. "I
finally sat myself down and said, 'You have the Olympics coming up. You have
to get yourself together, get over it, handle it and start succeeding again,'
A quarter of me said to quit and hide, but three-quarters of me said to get
up and do it. In my mindset, I still had a goal. The Worlds were yesterday
and this was today."
Frederick did indeed get over it, handle it and start succeeding again.
She climbed back to where she earned a berth on the Olympic team and seemed
to have a very legitimate shot at ending that American medal drought. But, it
was 1980, the Soviet Union had troops in Afghanistan and President Jimmy
Carter told American athletes they couldn't compete in Moscow. For all
intents and purposes, Frederick's gymnastics career, a career which had
started under when she was nine years old, was over.
She was just 18 years old.
And she did not know what to do.
"I could have accepted going to the Olympics and falling," she says. "But
I couldn't accept not having the chance. It took me a full decade to get over
the boycott. To me, it was a loss, like a death, and I wasn't able to handle
it. Those 10 years were painful, lonely and extremely hard. Peter (who she
met in 1980) helped me through it, but other help I should have gotten just
wasn't there. I was asking 'what do I do now,' and I wasn't getting any
answers from the people who had been providing them since I was nine."
Those people, Frederick says, were her parents and Grossfeld.
"I was disappointed in them for not helping me," she says. "It was their
responsibility, but I think they felt differently now that I was 18. Part of
the problem was that too many decisions were made for me up until then, all
the way down to what I ate. People want to nurture and protect, but they're
really not helping, they're somothering. So I wasn't prepared to make
decisions myself when the time came and I don't think they recognized that.
They just figured I was 18 now and could handle it.
She couldn't. By her own account, Frederick spent the next 10 years
drifting.
She did a lot of gymnastics-related things to earn a living, including
professional tours and shows, television commercials and the 1982 TV movie
"Nadia," in which she did all the gymnastics for Comaneci's character. She
also made up for a lost childhood.
"I wanted to do all the stuff I wasn't allowed to do before," she says.
"I wanted to party, to pursue life. I got into the New York scene for a
while. I just became a bit wild, but I stopped short of drifting as far as
drugs and alcohol.
"I can relate to a Jennifer Capriati (who at 14 was playing Wimbledon and
at 18 is facing drug charges), except in her case there's also having to deal
with having so much available money, which only makes it harder. As athletes,
we were in the same kind of fast lane, but outside of that she got into
another kind of fast lane that I didn't have to deal with and it's more
difficult for her."
Indeed, her own experience and seeing what has happened to girls like
Capriati has made Frederick outspoken on the roles those close to young
athletes must take on.
"Parents really need to watch out for the pitfalls. They have to help
keep their kids on the right track if they make it or help them deal with it
if they don't make it.
"The athlete who can't deal with failure is the one whose parents and
coaches didn't help them to learn how. It's when the kid doesn't live up to
expectations that the parents and coaches can make the difference. Muriel and
my parents did that for me. When I failed in 1979, they kept me in the eye of
the media hurricane."
Indeed, if Frederick's first 18 years were a parental and coaching
report card, her's would have gotten the highest grades for that, and for not
being pushy, says Frederick. It wasn't until the communication broke down and
they didn't realize how much they were still needed that they didn't come
through.
"Parents need to communicate with the kid, allow her to express her
views. It's even more important as the child get older, so they can assess
situations and guide their children along."
Frederick and gymnastics have long since parted company. She's in the
fitness field now, certified in aerobics and entering her second project for
WFIT television in Providence, R.I. But as fit as she is to this day, and as
much as she's learned about her subject, there's still one thing often
missing -- the smile.
"When I do tv work, they're always reminding me to smile," she says.
That's no surprise. Smiling never came easy to Marcia Frederick. That
came, she says, with the territory of wanting so badly to be the best.
"Since then I've felt that I had had been less serious and more able to
smile, people might have been warmer toward me. But I'm learning."
She said it with a smile.
She's just 31 years old.

Written by Mike Bogen
Posted by Susan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 15:42:05 EDT
From: <***@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: tapes of USOF EF

To anyone with two VCRs,
Here in Columbus the event finals of the USOF were not aired (or if they
were, it was on a pay channel that I don't subscribe to). If anyone (Susan?
Billy? Anyone?) has them on tape, could you let me know? I'd love to get a
copy. Thanks!

Beth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 02:22:51 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Team Worlds

I wanted to start a discussion on who everyone thinks will be the top team in
Dortmund? My pick would definitly have to be Romania. They have been so
close, so often but the Soviet Union would always be better and win.(Except,
of course for 87 and 79 Worlds) I also think Russia stands a chance for the
gold. They have a very strong althletes, all of whom have difficult and
beautiful routines. My darkhorse pick for an upset would definitly have to
be China. They have an entire team just like "Little Mo" and could shock
everyone and win although that's reaching a little bit. The US stands a good
chance for the bronze and that's all you can really expect right now. We
will be better contenders next year and in Atlanta. Our team is still young
w/ very bright hopes like Doni Thompson, Kristy Powell, Dominique Moceanu,
Jennie Thompson and lot more. Not to mention veterans Shannon Miller,
Dominique Dawes, Kerri Strug and Kim Zmeskal. If Michelle can get back into
competition form she could also be up there though, I'm not sure how
realistic that is. The Ukraine should also be in there. Anyone heard of
anything new from the Australians? Bulgarians? French?---Brian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 11:59:20 BST
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Team Worlds

My guess is Romania too, although it could be tight with Russia. The
top two Romanians of Milosovici and Gogean are very strong but I'm
feeling that the 'minor' Romanians are not as strong as they are
supposed to be (Cacovean was especially disappointing at Brissie
Worlds). There are of course some very promising young stars like
Hatagan, Amanar, Bican, Rusan, Mocanu, etc.

The Russians are beautiful in their routines as always and
they have a cool three-head with Kochetkova, Khorkina and Fabrichnova.
Don't know who'll fill the other slots but there are the likes of
Vandysheva (is she still injured), Golub, Grosheva and Nikolaeva around.
I also saw an unknown Russian who competed in the Cottbus'94 in
Germany, think her name was 'Eugenia' something?

The US, I haven't seen much of (being in England) but Miller and Dawes
was also a big 'head' (Not literally!). Can Strug compete? From what
I saw of Fontaine and Borden in Brissie Worlds, they were a bit sub-par (I
don't mean anything by this, just saying they are 'not as good as'
say Miller and Dawes). Campi won't be fit for Dortmund or the US might
have more chance of a 'better' medal.

The Chinese I have no idea of what will happen (Perhaps David knows
a bit more?). Who's going to be in team is a mystery to me. I agree with
Brian though that if they show as much talents as "little Mo" did in
Brisbane then we could well be in for something.

The Australians should be weaker than what they achieved in '92 Olympics.
After the Olympics, the majority of the team retired (Monique Allen,
Lisa Read, Kylie Shadbolt, Jane Warrilow, etc.) and they didn't even
bother sending anybody to Worlds'93 in Birmingham. The restructuring
is getting into shape but I don't think they'll be ready yet. Jo
Hughes should be fit (I'm told she should be competing in Commonwealth
Games in August) but the others like Salli Wills, Cathy Keyser, Nicole
Kantek, etc. are not really among the top of the class yet.

Same goes for the Spanish. They are showing signs of improving with
their restructuring after the Olympics and Pachecho medalling in UB
in Europeans'94 was a big boost. Also Monica Martin made the BB final.

Same again goes for the Germans. The team of Schonfelder, Gunther,
Stark, Drissler, Schroder, Potempa and Weller had been together a long
time and I think only Gaby Weller is still going (maybe not even).
Now they have new names of Stratmann, Kriebich (sp?), etc.

The Belarussians looks stronger now, they have of course Piskoun and
the two Yurkinas, plus also Tarasevich and Polozkova.

The Ukrainians are strange. They sent Kalinina to Europeans'94 instead
of the youngsters. But after what I saw of Kalinina, she is still a
top class gymnast which is a pleasant surprise because I haven't seen
her for years (apart from University Games'93). Podkopayeva is cool
and they also have good depths with Knizhnik, Boulakhova and Nakornayeva.

The French could also spring a surprise. They did finish third in the
Europeans'94 team event behind Romania and Russia but ahead of Ukraine.
Lussac is great but the only other gymnast I've seen was Canqueteau.

Don't know a lot about the Bulgarians or Hungarians. I don't think they
have a strong leader (which is of course important coz one can lift
the spirit of the team ten-fold if she is doing well.) and they shouldn't
feature too much in Dortmund (me thinks).

The Greeks and the Israelis can make a stir in Dortmund with some
good individual performances. They can both make the top ten. Karentzou
and Apostilidou did well in both Brisbane and Stockholm Europeans for
Greece, and Schahaf and Shani can do well for Israel.

Lastly (not literally I hope) we Brits are getting better. It'll be a
great achievement if we can finish in the top ten! Annika Reeder did
qualify for the Europeans'94 FX final which is already a great achievement
for us, and Karin Szymko finished 14th in the AA which is the highest
ever for a British gymnast.

OK. That's all I can think of for the moment. These are all of course
assuming the teams are injury-free which is difficult but anyway I'm
looking forward to the competition and best of luck to all of them.

Finally my prediction for the medals are:
1. Romania
2. Russia
3. USA

Ta-ra.

Sherwin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 17:48:15 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Team Worlds

>The Chinese I have no idea of what will happen (Perhaps David knows
>a bit more?). Who's going to be in team is a mystery to me. I agree with
>Brian though that if they show as much talents as "little Mo" did in
>Brisbane then we could well be in for something.

Present training in Beijing is focusing on the Asia Games, coming about a
month before Dortmund. My info is that they will chose two separate teams for
AGs and World Team, but if someone comes off the AGs on a high note and can
be ready for Dortmund, all bets are off. As usual, the Chinese will decide at
the very last minute who goes. It's all a matter of who's in top form.

BTW, Lu Li (Gold on bars in Barcelona) has retired, for those who do not
know. She has decided to call it quits while on top, and is currently
cracking the books so that she can get into a good university. No coaching
career there. Expect big things from this smart little star.

Additional BTW, Yong Yan Chen, (Li Ning's wife and the team captain for
China's women's bronze medal team in LA in '84) is currently recovering from
major surgery to remove a tumor on her thymus. She was diagnosed here in the
U.S., but elected to have the surgery in China because a) family and friends
were close by, b) Li Ning pulled strings and got her into the same private
hospital that treats Deng Xiaoping, and c) we all felt that the combination
of Chinese and Western medicine would work wonders. The tumor was benign, and
she was walking up and down stairs 20 hours after they closed up her chest.
She told me to say hi to everyone on gymn, and she expects to be back at Li
Nings US gym September 10.

Your man in Beijing (in spirit, anyway, if not in fact)

David

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 22:05:51 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Team Worlds

I would have to say that Romania will win, with a three way race for silver:
Russia, US and China.

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jul 94 1:34:54 EDT
From: <***@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Team Worlds

I agree with everyone else so far and think the Romanians will win, since
right now they have the most depth and the advantage of living and training
together all the time. That should help team morale. But the Russians have a
decent shot too, and the same advantage of living and training together. I
prefer their gymnastics to the Romanians' and would love to see them win the
gold, but I wonder if they'll suffer at the judges' hands since they aren't as
"big-name" as Milosovici and Gogean... Maybe Goodwill Games will change that,
depending on who Russia has competing. In any case, I predict gold and silver
for the Romanians and the Russians, in one order or another, and a battle for
the bronze among the US, China and perhaps Ukraine. I think Belarus is kind of
a long shot, since the Yurkinas - beautiful as they are - seem to have a
tendency of falling a lot. I have no idea what to expect of the US. If Kim
Zmeskal, Brandy Johnson and Wendy Bruce are all successful in their comeback
efforts, and are on the team with Shannon Miller, Dominique Dawes, Amanda
Borden and Larissa Fontaine, we could do quite well. All of those girls have
had either World Championship or Olympics experience (or both), and that would
help immensely. But if the comebacks are not successful, I don't know if I can
think of seven girls who have had a lot of int'l experience. If Kerri Strug
returns to the scene, she'd be a big asset to the team. I wish Michelle Campi
could compete, but I don't think she'll be fully recovered yet. It will be very
interesting to see who we end up sending. I'd also like to see Ukraine do well,
because I like Podkopayeva so much, but I don't think they have the depth right
now to contend for the gold or silver. But the bronze could be within their
reach, depending on who the US and China send and how they do. It's definitely
going to be an interesting battle for that bronze medal!
By the way, is anyone planning on going on the IG tour? I am! :)

Beth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 11:37:54 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Tokenism for Tokenism's sake ? (Was Gender and Judging)

Rachele said
>Also, I doubt very seriously the FIG would be under the US
>Constitution's jurisdiction for meets in the US; it
seems similar to
>how foreign embassies are not really considered to be
on US soil.

Ah now thats different, embassies are considered as being part of the
country they represent and are subject to the laws of that country.
Thats how come on all American bases and embassies around the world
the people who work at these places can carry guns even though in the
country the embassy or the base is located it might be illegal to do
so.

Now when your running a sports event in a country you have to comply
to the laws of that country no matter where you come from, an example
of this is the ban on tobacco advertising on TV in the UK. No sports
personality is allowed to advertise tobacco companies directly on UK
TV. This applies to everyone in any sport whether the governing body
for that sport comes from Switzerland, Albania anywhere infact, so in
other words basically the FIG is supposed to follow the US
constitution (since it is a law) if they hold a meet in the US.


But anyway, what difference does it make if the judge who judges the
womens competition is male or female or whether a coach is male or
female surely you want the best person for the job regardless of
gender, age, colour, creed, religous belief etc etc.

Clive

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 22:05:47 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Trivia Questions Needed - #19 USSR

Everyone,

As you can see, after a bit of a layoff in late June/early July, I've
gotten my second trivia wind. I figure, let's get one more set in
before Goodwill.

I'm getting nostalgic hearing about Tougikova and company, and that
gave me the idea for this trivia set:

"Soyetsky Soyuz" (Gymnastics of the Soviet Union 1952-1991)

The start date is 1952 for the first USSR Olympic appearance, and the end
date is 1991 for their last appearance under the hammer & sickle (leo patches
'92 excluded <g>). All questions must fall within that period.

Go to it guys! E-mail me with all questions.

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 23:38:02 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: TV Notes

The USAIGC National's will be on TV this weekend. On the West coast it's
1:30 PM on Sunday (the 17th) on Prime Ticket.

Just a note . . . ABC had originally scheduled the Hilton Challenge for air
on the 16th (Saturday) instead they have figur skating exhibs from December a
*repeat* showing. Geez, I'd much rather see that then the male World AA
Champion. Brother . . .

Susan

------------------------------

End of gymn Digest
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