gymn Digest Wed, 4 May 94 Volume 2 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:
Chinese vaults and fannies
comments on my comments
Dawes Theory (3 msgs)
FX dance series
landing tumbling passes (2 msgs)
lunges
Lunges at end of tumbling passes (2 msgs)
Men's EF...ABC Style
Moist hands and ripping
NCAA coverage Sunday? (2 msgs)
Observations - Men's EF
re.: lunges
russian pronunciation and poor sportsmanship
Scherbo Stuff...Me Rambling...of Course (3 msgs)
Stuck landings, Code suggestions (3 msgs)
Trivia Questions Needed (2 msgs)
USAIGC Nationals
VIDEOS FOR SALE

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

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Date: Tue, 03 May 94 16:28:39 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Chinese vaults and fannies

> That kills them in the vault because not only do they
not get enough height, there ain't no landing gear there when the >feet meet
the mat.

What happened to the Lou Yun types? Boy, could that man vault! I never
really noticed him on anything but FX and V, so maybe he sucked on other
events (certainly didn't have the long body line). But on the 10's thread
from a week or so ago, he did the only routine I can think of off the top of
my head that *was* perfect ('88 FX). Susan and David say perfection is
impossible, and I tend to agree, but that routine. . . !!!! I'd be willing
to stick my neck out and say it was *perfect*.

>The reason the Chinese do not have much Glutial Awareness is because they
are
>not accustomed to regarding it as an important part of the body. At any
rate,
>what would you recommend to solve the problem? I am sure the folks in
Beijing
>would like to know how to improve form....

Well, I would imagine they get ballet training, which teaches that proper
posture is sucking in your stomach and closing your ribs, pulling your butt
under (which is really not hard for Chinese girls since they don't have much
of one) and pulling your trunk up while keeping your shoulders down. They're
generally fine during their routines except that the choreography itself
(epsecially the cutesy FX choreography) often calls for
butt-sticking-out-and-wiggling moves. But the problem areas I had in mind in
my msg are the lunges which end tumbling passes and the salutes after
dismounts, when they practically fold themselves in half backwards. It's
really not such a terrible thing (it's not a deduction), I just think it
looks bad, very exaggerated.

Clearly they aren't accustomed to thinking of the gluteus max as important,
from the way they wear their leos. Not that I think they should change their
thinking, but they should be aware it's a 0.2 deduction for showing too much
skin (I expect they are aware, since at least a couple of them have actually
been deducted for it).

Speaking of lunges ending tumbling passes, I really think it's a wimp-out
that girls aren't required to stick their tumbling. It's nice to end with a
flair, but I think having stuck the landing should be demonstrated first.
Dobre used to nail her tumbling without the silly step, and everyone was
always so impressed. Milosovici has done it too (maybe others, but these are
the ones I can think of now).

-- gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 May 1994 10:55:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
Subject: comments on my comments

To reply to some of my earlier comments, my "knees together dogma club"
sort of refers to the tendency for the average viewer to pick apart a complex
element during the slo-mo replay and go "they piked before they landed - it
wasn't a TRUE layout..." or something like that. The legs should be mostly
together, but I'm not one to nit-pick basic good form but the knees only 1 or 2
inches apart, unlike Shannon's "straddled double-back" on floor.
The above "slo-mo nit-picker" is just my way of defending my sport from
over-critical liberal arts college students who watched the '84 Olympics so
they-know-all-about-this-sport I always seem end up watching the meets with in
my dorm. But gymnasts like the Pod and the Li guy who just won World p-bars make
believrs out of me that you CAN have perfect form and still do pike
double-backs so what do I know, ya know?
I miss Yang Bo on beam. Say what you will about her ability to blow
dismounts in pressure situations, but on the beam, she was one of the best
ever.
Pat Kirksey used to do a wonderful open 1/2 in 1/2 out on floor, just
to include him in the "cool stuff never rewarded" category.
One more annoying thing to include - the stupid over-arching flair in
women's Yurchenko-fulls. Laschenova and a couple others they did the flair w/o
the bad compromise in bodyline, but the thing Zmeskal used to do? She was good,
but not 10 worthy.
Hey, is there anything in the women's rules where they have to land
past the third mat line on vault or get a deduction like the men have now? What
a nice way to reward true vaulting power. Move over Shannon, Leah Brown's
commin' your way....
Cara

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 11:41:58 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Dawes Theory

I agree with Brent that this may have something to do with it. As a Baseball
fan, I agree that individual performance is extremely succeptable to the
presence of overriding personal concerns.

I think, however, that there should be a limit to our inquiry. Dominique has
a right to her privacy, and I believe that excessive speculation as to the
cause of her distress is better left to the folks that occupy that particular
sewer, i.e. the Star or the Enquirer.

I think Brent's comment was a perfect example of the limit to which we should
take our discussion. He simply noted that she was having personal problems.
And that should be it. Period.

Getting off of his soapbox while applauding Brent,


David

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 16:28:57 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Dawes Theory

On the other hand, any problems Dawes is having didn't affect her performance
at any other meet this past year or on any other event at Worlds. I think if
anything, it was the specter of last year's vault which affected her (which
is not to say it's an excuse the way your sister dying would be, since plenty
of people fall once and don't fall the next day, or the next year, e.g.
Shannon on beam).

As I mentioned once before, I've gained a renewed appreciation for
Shushunova's ability to land that sucker regularly, now that I see the
problems Dawes and others, like Ivankov and Keswick, have had with it.

-- gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 17:51:12 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Dawes Theory

I think the bottom line on this lies with the judges. The Code doesn't care
if you are flautulent or if your mother just died in your arms. The Code, and
therefore Judges and the sport itself, judge you on how you do. Everything
else is static and has no place on the competition floor.

I don't know Dominique and I am sure she is a wonderful lady. But I am
certain she would never make excuses for a performance, and neither should
we.

David

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 May 94 09:51:42 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: FX dance series

Cara:
>Does anyone else think that the 3-jump requirement (in a row) should be
>eliminated from women's floor? It creates so many unartistic portions of
floor
>routines. A "three leaps-in-a-row" requirement would be much nicer.

Susan:
>Actually isn't it like a three leap series with a half turn or
something-or-other?

Let me put on my judge hat. . .

The requirement is a three-element gymnastic series of which at least one
element has to be at least a "B". So the requirement can be fulfilled with
any kind of turns, jumps, or leaps. The only category excluded is "holds"
(arabesques and the like, which I think means even body waves, which is a
separate category, count, but I'd have to check to be sure). So in theory it
doesn't have to be too restrictive of choreography. The reason we get those
nasty jump combinations is that the jumps have high ratings, and despite
being overrated, they are difficult, and the girls can't do them right so
they look awful. Susan makes the point:

>The
rules that require specific dance skills (jump double turn, Popa,etc.) >to
meet the bonus requirements also help to kill the originality making >all the
girls do all the same skills

For Comps Ib (team opt.) and II (AA finals), it wouldn't be so bad, but the
girls prepare the routines to meet C-III (event finals) requirements. To get
the full 0.3 bonus for extra D's and E's in C-III, a girl has to have one of
the following: 1) 2 D's and 2 E's 2) 3 D's and 1 E, or 3) 5 D's (as a
minimum. Of course she could exceed these, but she'd still get only 0.3
bonus). To meet this with just tumbling is difficult, even with layout front
fulls and rudis (without them it would be virtually impossible), so the girls
are de facto required to do a "D" dance element. There are a limited number
of these; hence the proliferation of Popas.

Then there are the bonus points for special connections, a whole other story.
These are easier to come by in tumbling, but since they have to do a gym
series and a hard dance element anyway, they may as well put in a combination
that will get them bonus points. It's good for backup, too, in case she
misses something.

Hope this made sense.

-- gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 17:19:32 EDT
From: ***@MIT.EDU
Subject: landing tumbling passes

Gimnasta said:

>Speaking of lunges ending tumbling passes, I really think it's a wimp-out
>that girls aren't required to stick their tumbling. It's nice to end with a
>flair, but I think having stuck the landing should be demonstrated first.
>Dobre used to nail her tumbling without the silly step, and everyone was
>always so impressed. Milosovici has done it too (maybe others, but these are
>the ones I can think of now).

I agree. I have brought this up before and the general consensus was that
this was allowed for safety -- the landing might be too risky otherwise.

This general issue comes up for all increases in difficulty in the code
of points. Making it harder to get a 10 may encourage gymnasts to try
moves they are not really ready to do safely, because everyone else will
be, because you just gotta start from a 10.0 (or at *worst* a 9.9).

I think they hesitate a bit more in the "women's" code, because these
women are little girls, and no one really wants to be responsible for
driving little girls into attempting extremely risky moves.

But I think it is necessary for most people *not* to start from a 10.0 --
that way a truly outstandingly difficult routine (i.e. Mo Huilan's bars)
gets a *true* reward for its difficulty level.

I think a 10.0 routine must include *stuck* landings -- they have to stick
them on all other apparatus, why not on floor?

I also think that tucked moves should be considered "perfectly" executed
only if they are not "cowboyed" (performed with legs spread open in the
tuck). The cowboy style is easier, but truly inelegant. If the difficulty
rating of the move is based on having to do it with legs closed, then the
deduction for cowboying will be offset by the bonus for doing such a hard
move, but if anyone can do it closed, they will be rewarded for their
clean style.

Anyhow, with women's marks *so* high, I really think judges should be
taking more deductions for minor form breaks that they do no now deduct
for, including those discussed above.

--Robyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 15:18:12 -0400 (edt)
From: ***@dorsai.dorsai.org
Subject: landing tumbling passes

Alright here is a pet peeve of mine regarding women's floor: how come
they can take as many steps as they want before a tumbling pass? The men
are limited to 3 steps - any more and it is a deduction. I want to watch
a floor routine not a track meet! It is much harder to do a double back
from 3 steps than it is to do it from 5 or 6 or more!!! It also looks bad!!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 May 94 02:00:15 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: lunges

Bill Sands wrote:

>Moreover, I think most astute observers can tell the
>difference between a controlled landing to a lunge and an out of control
>landing that is saved by a lunge.

Pity we can't count some judges among the astute observers. ;-)

>...I doubt that floor exercise could then be modeled after figure skating,
>which I think is a worthwhile goal.

Only if it's ice dance or Oksana Baiul. The rest are clods. (Oh yeah, so are
plenty of gymnasts.)

Interesting figure on the diminished stress of slight (how slight?)
overrotation. Looking forward to the next goodie.

Nancy
(Apparently I can't complete a sentence tonight. Do forgive - been writing
too many postcards.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 17:24 MST
From: ***@DEANS.HEALTH.UTAH.EDU
Subject: Lunges at end of tumbling passes

I think that the lunge at the end of a tumbling pass for women is
appropriate, not for safety, not because they are little girls, and so forth,
but simply for choreography. To demonstrate a stuck landing you should pause
for a moment to show this position. I doubt that floor exercise could then
be modeled after figure skating, which I think is an worthwhile goal. A
tumble-stop-turn-dance-tumble-stop-turn and so forth approach would limit
choreography far too much for my taste. That it is related to comfort on
landings is undeniable. Our study of mats and landings that had a slightly
over rotated landing followed by a lunge decreased peak impact forces around
40% as I recall. Moreover, I think most astute observers can tell the
difference between a controlled landing to a lunge and an out of control
landing that is saved by a lunge.
Bill Sands

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 23:02:31 EDT
From: ***@MIT.EDU
Subject: Lunges at end of tumbling passes

Bill Sands said:

> [...]
>but simply for choreography. To demonstrate a stuck landing you should pause
>for a moment to show this position. I doubt that floor exercise could then
>be modeled after figure skating, which I think is an worthwhile goal. A
>tumble-stop-turn-dance-tumble-stop-turn and so forth approach would limit
>choreography far too much for my taste.

But they pause after the lunge anyhow. I don't find the lunge inherently
that much more beautiful than a straight landing that it improves the
choreography significantly.

> [...] Moreover, I think most astute observers can tell the
>difference between a controlled landing to a lunge and an out of control
>landing that is saved by a lunge.

Good point. If the judges deducted (even very slightly) for "an out of
control landing that is saved by a lunge" I would be satisfied that the
gymnast in control was being rewarded for that control. But I suspect
that that is *very* unlikely.

--Robyn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 11:04:32 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Men's EF...ABC Style

Susans comments on the Chinese are, as always, both delightful and right on
the mark.

>Huang was SOOO Chinese! Great form,
>cool tricks, and a big screw up on the dismount...what a >shocker.

To a man, every Chinese men's gymnast I have spoken to HATES the pommel. This
is more clear evidence that they should get over their phobia and conquer
this apparatus once and for all. I lay the blame at the feet of their
coaches, who are my friends but hey, the awful truth is the awful truth.

>Chinese guys are so flat (if you've ever seen Li Jing in a handstand you
>know what I mean...hey did you know Jing was at worlds? That's the first
he's
>been seen since Barcelona. Wonder if he was injured? Maybe he tried to stick
>a landing or something silly like that). Liping deserved this one! HUGE pike
>double and he stuck!!

No, actually Li Jing took the time off because he had been building up for
the National Games in Beijing last September. In fact, that's why you haven't
seen a lot of familiar faces since Barcelona. Chinese are still
Chinese--technically excellent but BORING. The addition of Russian coaching
should start remedying that situation, but not for 2-4 years.

As far as Vaults, Chinese men have incredible upper body strength for their
size (don't believe me? Watch a rings, bars, or pommel routine) but lower
body strength sucks. That kills them in the vault because not only do they
not get enough height, there ain't no landing gear there when the feet meet
the mat. Vaults at the National Games last year were really ludicrous. I
think I only saw a couple of 9s all week.

Still defending Beijing with my last ASCII character,

David

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 00:43:04 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Moist hands and ripping

>When your hands get "harder" by virtue of calusses and drying, they are not
>actually getting "tougher". Dry skin is dead skin. . .

Though maybe not tougher with respect to ripping, calloused hands hurt a lot
less in doing bars (starting bars again after being away for a while b/c of
injury or whatever was kind of painful, as I recall). I imagine the dead
skin is the reason they hurt less?

-- gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 22:47:32 +0600
From: ***@scoter.cdev.com
Subject: NCAA coverage Sunday?

Wait, wait, don't tell me, let me guess.

The baseball game on Minneapolis channel 4 at 2:00 CDT Sunday of the
hapless Minnesota Twins is preempting the NCAA Women's event finals show.

Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggggghhhh!!!!!

Say it ain't so, Joe! (Can anyone confirm the time?)

My kingdom for a satellite dish.

--John

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 May 94 12:03:41 EDT
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: NCAA coverage Sunday?

I think the CBS network coverage of the NCAA women's finals is
Sunday 2-3:30 p.m. EDT, so presumably it would start
at 1 p.m. in Mpl-Stpl. In that case, John, maybe you'll
see part of the coverage (an hour pre-game show seems
a bit much for baseball).

>>Kathy
kgodfrey@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 11:08:02 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Observations - Men's EF

> The way girls
>stick their butts out like that looks awful. The Chinese girls are the
worst
>that way).

The reason the Chinese do not have much Glutial Awareness is because they are
not accustomed to regarding it as an important part of the body. At any rate,
what would you recommend to solve the problem? I am sure the folks in Beijing
would like to know how to improve form....


David

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 May 94 09:17:26 -0400
From: ***@riscee.bxb.dec.com
Subject: re.: lunges

Here's a message I sent over a year ago on this issue.
Steve

------------------------------------------------------------

To: gymn@Athena.MIT.EDU
Subject: new scoring method
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 93 12:27:29 -0500
From: craig
X-Mts: smtp


I believe the new scoring system is in place to make it harder for a gymnast to
score high 9's or 10. Maybe in addition to the new E moves, the judges should
also consider these:

1. On women's floor, deduct 1/10 for the step that most gymnasts take upon
completing their tumbling sequence. Once they hit the ground, that leg
always goes back to prevent them from flying backwards off the mat.
When I was a gymnast, you had to stick your tumbling passes, or else
it was 1/10 per step. If judges deducted these tenths, most gymnasts
would have at least 3 - 4 tenths deducted automatically. Now, if the
gymnast DOES happen to stick the tumbling pass, you know that they stand
there for that extra second, just too make sure that all judges noticed.
It's almost as if they are scored extra for performing the trick the way
that it's supposed to be done.

2. On unevens, whenever performing (on the low bar, facing the high bar)
a glide shoot-through (or straddle) to catch the high bar, most gymnasts
bounce from their butts in order to catch the high bar. That should be
a deduction. Julianne MacNamara was the only gymnast that I remember
seeing recently (?) performing this move correctly.


Maybe if the current rules took into consideration these obvious actions (I am
not calling them errors or mistakes since they are not considered that in the
rules book), then possibly they wouldn't need these new E moves.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 19:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject: russian pronunciation and poor sportsmanship
To: gymn@MIT.EDU
>
> >since it is not a "Russian" name even the Russian newscasters mispronounce
> >it as ScherbO
>
> This has absolutely nothing to do with gymnastics, but here goes: I believe
> that an unstressed "o" in Russian is pronounced like the English "a" in
> "father". For example, "spasibo" (thank you) is pronounced "spa-SI-bah",
> "ona" (she) is "uh-NAH", and Yurchenko is "Yur-CHEN-kah".
>
> Privet,
> Debbie
>

My Russian friends pronounce it "spa-SEE-bow"

Whats up ? Do they have the equivalent of an american drawl or what ?

-texx

PS:

On the athletes yelling at coaches...
the judges can always award them a 2.0

Unfortunately, we Americans are pretty bad in the sportsmanship dept.
I feel ashamed sometimes.

Since WHEN is it a coaches job to set bars and springboards?
Last I knew, a coach could be a nice guy and help, but adjustment of bars,
boards etc was the responsibility of the athlete.

People always refusing to take responsibility and blaming someone else !
(ARGHGHGH!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 00:42:48 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Scherbo Stuff...Me Rambling...of Course

>but since it is not a "Russian" name even the Russian newscasters
mispronounce it as ScherbO)

? I've never heard a Russian announcer say it, but I would have thought from
what I know of Russian pronunciation that they would say "Scherba" as well.

-- gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 02:18:44 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Scherbo Stuff...Me Rambling...of Course

>I've never heard a Russian announcer say it, but I would have thought from
what I know of Russian pronunciation that they would say "Scherba" as well.

On the Sov nightly news after both the Olympics and Nationals in '92 they
called him "ScherbO"...Just a thought...didn't know that this minor comment
would draw so much attention. If you care I saw the Soviet nightly news on
C-Span they play it every night...the last 5 mintues are sports - gym gets
mentioned every blue moon - though they do usually say who won nationals,
Moscow News, USSR Cup whatnot. During the Olympics they never even mentioned
gym until after Vitali won the six golds and then they interviewed him with
Bogie, Gutsu, Arkaev, & Belenki in the background, like potted plants, for
about an instant. Shooting on the other hand ( Marina something-or-other) was
VERY popular...Go figure...of course ESPN has covered 2 log cutting meets
(now there's a popular spectator sport) this year and the only gym they
showed in all of '93 was the UKR/BLR/USA exhibition and they didn't even show
Rustam's 7 Tkatchev's (Bad ESPN...VERY bad!) or the classic "Sticking
dismounts for cash" (Igor and Stoby won $10)!!! Ohmygawd! They are reshowing
this exhib., from last August, sometime this week at 3 or 4 in the morning
PDT if you're interested.

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 08:26:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@gateway.us.sidwell.edu
Subject: Scherbo Stuff...Me Rambling...of Course

In a probably vain attempt to put the issue of the correct pronounciation
of Scherbo's name to rest...

I just checked my Russian Tutor program (I'm trying to learn Russian
because I'm going to Russia this summer) and what we know in English as
the letter "o" has two pronounciations, one stressed and one unstressed.
The stressed one has the pronounciation "oh" and the unstressed one, as in
Scherbo's name, has the prononciation "ah." So Scherbo's name should be
pronounced "SHER-ba."

Of course, many people think that the last name of the 1976 Olympic
Women's AA champion is "Comaneechee." And there's no way you're going to
get the announcers to say "Lysenka does a double-twisting Yurchenka..."

Sorry that this is a little unrelated to gymnastics...make that *really*
unrelated to gymnastics...

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 1994 20:35:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
Subject: Stuck landings, Code suggestions

I've seen Shushunova do full-ins to stuck landings as well - I remember
her doing one in a televised exhibition in '86, after she had won Worlds. I
think Mary Lou used to do some on her tucked double backs. They do look
impressive, but I clench my teeth every single time a large male gymnast has to
do a difficult last pass to try to stick - I wait for that *thump* and then
open my eyes again. I wouldn't make it a rule for female gymnasts, but give
them brownie points for style.
Wide cowboys are gross, especially piked, but I'm not into the "knees
together" dogma club. Of course, I'm also a big Laschenova fan.
The code should start really pressing down on form. I'm suprised that
Gutsu won '91 Europeans, with her HORRIBLE leg form on bars, esp. on her
giants. Ewww. HB underswing 1/2 turn catch to low bar is always a good
element to downgrade form points. So are switch leg leaps on beam. There are
certain things that could really get nit-picky, like the men's judges are now
doing, that have been accepted a lot in the past. This would be a wonderful way
to encourage better form w/o encouraging death-defying new moves. What do
y'all think about this idea?
Does anyone else think that the 3-jump requirement (in a row) should be
eliminated from women's floor? It creates so many unartistic portions of floor
routines. A "three leaps-in-a-row" requirement would be much nicer.
Oh, I was talking to gimnasta about female gymnasts who were bad with
split leaps. My vote on one of the worst was Onodi. I loved her gymnastics for
the most part, but she wouldn't push off her back leg for amplitude - she just
kicked it out and used her back flexibility to throw it into a full split. Her
hips were about at the same height leaping as when she was standing. Probably
one of the reasons she now has to wear that back support when she warms up.
Ditto on her bars Jaeger - no height, just used her flexibility to catch it
accurately, but her hips were barely even with the bar.
David asked about how to help the Chinese women with "the butt problem"
when saluting. Have kids practice it in gym, show them tapes of good ones and
stupid-looking ones, and when they practice them, emphasize the opening of the
chest and shoulders, and have them use upper back arch in order to raise their
face instead of the lower back. One of the reasons the Chinese women are guilty
so often is that they have such great lower back flexibility, they just use
it. Sort of how you have to train a young gymnast learning a back walkover to
start by extending the spine and neck up and starting the arch in the upper
back instead of collapsing into their lower back. This may help the problem. If
you have any questions, just write me directly.
One last thing - who else but me thinks the U.S. men's program is
emphasizing more bulk and less speed and fast-twitch muscle stuff and that is
one of the reasons we don't have good tumbling, vault, HB releases or
bodylines? They should go train with Novikov at UPenn for a while - he is so
light and quick that he always makes a believer out of me.
Sorry for the long posting :-) Cara

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 May 94 23:03:58 EDT
From: ***@MIT.EDU
Subject: Stuck landings, Code suggestions

Cara said:

>I wouldn't make it a rule for female gymnasts, but give
>them brownie points for style.

Are you talking about real bonus points in their score, or just a pat on the
back? It may be a very good compromise if they are bonus points which can
be obtained other ways if the gymnast does not wish to (or is not capable
of) sticking her landings. I think just giving them a pat on the back is
not enough -- they should be awarded with higher scores.

> Wide cowboys are gross, especially piked, but I'm not into the "knees
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wouldn't that be straddled? :)

>together" dogma club. Of course, I'm also a big Laschenova fan.

Well, obviously I am. I think it looks *so* much cleaner with knees
together.


>The code should start really pressing down on form. [...]
>This would be a wonderful way
>to encourage better form w/o encouraging death-defying new moves. What do
>y'all think about this idea?

I like it a LOT.

> Does anyone else think that the 3-jump requirement (in a row) should be
>eliminated from women's floor? It creates so many unartistic portions of floor
>routines. A "three leaps-in-a-row" requirement would be much nicer.

What's the distinction? Are jumps in place?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 May 94 02:48:11 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Stuck landings, Code suggestions

Just to get this out of the way up front...Gogean IS the human dart (credit
to Nancy) when it comes to landings. - no matter how short of rotation she
gets (anyone else see that terrifying double back from Chunichi where she was
maybe 3 feet off the ground and landed dead legs together - any bets on how
long before them ankles need major surgery?)..that and her flexbilty are
possibly the only things I can think of about to Gina to praise.

>They do look impressive, but I clench my teeth every single time a large
male gymnast has to do a difficult last pass to try to stick - I wait for
that *thump* and then open my eyes again.

Hey most every thing in gymnastics is hard on the body...very very VERY hard
on the body. Sticking is part of the sport. Scherbo's about as "large" (I
call him the Pillsbury Dough gymnast) a gymnast as you get (with the
exception of Karbonenko who's more generally big than fat) and I never find
myself scared for him on the landings...now the Chinese guys...well they
never stick so that's not too much of an issue. It's only when the gymnast
is way short or way out of control and they somehow pull a stick out of
nowhere that I grit my teeth and wish for good tape.

>Wide cowboys are gross, especially piked, but I'm not into the "knees
together" dogma club

I'm a bit confused here as the knees must be together for it NOT to be
cowboyed...Check out Shannon's double pike (double straddle to be more
accurate) and compare it to say Chussy's...now tell me which would you rather
see? Oksana looks like a champion diver and Miller appears constipated.
Compare Vitali's pike position to just about everyone else and you'll also
get a good feel for the word "superior" (even if I do spell it wrong).
Another thing not much done and not much encouraged that I think is ultra
cool is the half-in half-out tuck open (not holding onto your legs to pull it
around) both Karbonenko and Chussy used to do them and both were really
fab...and completely un-noticed and un-rewarded, by the judges at least.
Back to the main thread here, in this day of highly technical gymnastics
cowboying is really unacceptable and the judges need to start addressing that
and deducting accordingly.

> The code should start really pressing down on form

The number of people with bad form are quite vast (you mentioned Gutsu who
was hardly the most offensive but not up to her Sov team mates either...right
now Dawes would easily top my list and Bontas would be on the "all time" one
for sure) as well as ones with bad leaps (Dudnik and Mitova were otherwise
very talented gymnasts who couldn't leap worth shit...and has anyone ever
seen Laura Cutina? Eek!). But the basic statement is SO true (Hmm, have Isaid
this before?)...don't invent new tricks if you can't do the old ones
properly. This is why we MUST not get rid of compos since that is where the
best are truly seperated from the rest...or should be at least...I do
remember Bontas tying Boguinskyia for FX compo in '91 (9.95 can you belive
that crap?) and getting the HIGHEST score on compo BB (9.9 - no really) in
Barcelona for an 8.7 set but theoretically compulsory excercies are a very
good thing.

>Does anyone else think that the 3-jump requirement (in a row) should be
eliminated from women's floor? It creates so many unartistic portions of
floor routines

Actually isn't it like a three leap series with a half turn or
something-or-other? Anyway...neither this nor landing on a lunge position can
be blamed for un-artisticness on women's FX...lack of dance training can. The
rules that require specific dance skills (jump double turn, Popa,etc.) to
meet the bonus requirements also help to kill the originality making all the
girls do all the same skills. Quality of dance, movement, and choreography
should be rewarded as well as tumbling moves, amplitude, form, and (if I've
said it once I've said it thirty gazillion times) the essence of the gymnast
TOE POINT.

>One last thing - who else but me thinks the U.S. men's program is
emphasizing more bulk and less speed and fast-twitch muscle stuff and that is
one of the reasons we don't have good tumbling, vault, HB releases or
bodylines?

You forgot to mention bad PH, P-bars, Rings, HB swing, and compostion in
general...but I think that a big problem with US men's gym is that we don't
have enoguh interest...we don't listen to our good expensive imported coaches
enough...and all we care about is winning a medal now and again not becoming
truly "good". You watch an NCAA meet and you see so much unexploited talent
it makes you cry...then you watch our team at a worlds and it's considered a
vast success because one guy wins the first medal in 15 years even when
everyone else fell a minimum of thirty times. I won't even get into whether
or not Paul deserved it... mostly because I haven't seen enough to be sure
but did anyone else note that '79 Worlds - the last time a US guy won a medal
- was in the US. Hmm, isn't it odd that we seem to be so prolific in our own
country ('79 & '84) medal wise but flail helplessly outside our borders (yes,
I know that Peter Kormann and Kurt both enjoyed some success in '78 as
well). Wonder if there could be a connection...nah.

Where was I...ahh yes the American men's problem...actually that's probably
their biggest one... they refuse to admit that they really have a problem.
They talk about adjustments to the program and such but what we really need
to be successful is dedicated guys and a central training structure (lok at
what it's done for Aussie and France...both very "non-Commie" countrys) where
we let our gifted coaches train the guys their way - like it or lump it - and
attack the youth. I mean Chainey is okay but there is no way he's gonna' get
elegant and flexible at this late date...you know what I mean?

Geez and Cara thought she had a legnthy post...

Susan

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Date: Tue, 03 May 94 20:54:31 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Trivia Questions Needed

Hi Everyone--

Our trivia topic this time is "Unlucky Gymnasts." I know some of you had
submitted questions previously, but I'd appreciate it if you could re-submit
them, this time to me at MaraEL@aol.com.

Thanks, everyone.

Your new trivia coordinator (my, how grand and important!)<G>
Mara

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Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 22:31:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@wfu.edu
Subject: Trivia Questions Needed

I think the most unlucky gymnast would have to be Trent Dimas. I don't
remember when, maybe 1991 (?), when he fell on his vault due to a camera
flash in the background. What amazed me was that we went and did another
vault shortly thereafter. Talk about unlucky and guts!!

Jenny

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Date: Wed, 04 May 94 10:01:59 EDT
From: ***@eos.ncsu.edu
Subject: USAIGC Nationals

Howdy, folks

I was just wondering if anyone is planning to go to USAIGC Nationals
this year in Greensboro, North Carolina. I am currently planning to go,
but am not 100% sure. If anyone else is going, email me back. I would
greatly enjoy meeting a fellow Gymn'er in person!

Thanks,
--Brent

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Date: Wed, 4 May 94 8:27:06 18000
From: ***@freenet1.scri.fsu.edu
Subject: VIDEOS FOR SALE

NI think I screwed up the transmission of my last note so here I go
again (with some updates.)

Recently I was able to attend the World Gymnastics Championships in
Brisbane,Australia.I decided before the trip to vidoetape the
competition and sell the videos so I could make the trip to Dortmond
in November.For the most part the videos turned out pretty well.I did
have a few problems.

1.I forgot my tripod at home.I had to prop my elbow on the seat next
to me and use my arm as a monopod.It worked pretty well.I couldn't use
this technique in AA because someone sat next to me that day.

2.My autofocus was EXTREMELY sensitive.If even the smallest object got
in front of the person I was shooting,the camcorder goes ever so
slightly out of focus.This is evident on vault and floor.On vault a
scoreboard got in the way as I was panning and on floor the VIP's were
right in front of us,so at the very bottom of the screen you might see
the very top of people's heads.The don't get in the way of the
routines though.

Now for the good news.I was able to tape a large amount of routines.I
counted women's prelims and have 200+ routines.I haven't seen any of
the television coverage,but from what ya'll say it pretty much
stunk.I don't think they showed many routines though.Now for the
sessions and prices.

WOMEN'S PRELIMS-$35.00-Two tapes.This session (along with finals)
turned out to be the best of all the ones I taped.I got nearly all the
bar routines and at least one vault from all the competitors.I was
able to get about 50 routines each of beam and floor.

MEN'S PRELIMS-$20.00-The men and women competed in prelims at the same
time,but the men had a few sessions to themselves.This tape contains
these sessions along with a few in the women's.

WOMEN'S AA-$20.00-This session was a little harder to do beacause
there were four events going on at the same time instead of four like
in prelims.I concentrated on the USA,ROM,AND the soviet republics.

MEN's AA-$15.00-I had a bit of trouble with this session.Some of the
routines are pretty shakey and I didn't have time to edit this one.The
pans from routine to routine are pretty rough also.I do prefer this to
television coverage.(Nothing can be that bad!)

Men's and Women's EF-$25.00-This session turned out well because one
event was all I needed to concentrate on.I got every routine with the
exception of Misutin's dimount landing.

*****OR YOU CAN PURCHASE THEM ALL FOR $100.00*****--

Please add $3.00 for shipping and handling (for any amount of tapes)
Make check or money order out to Billy Mispel.My address is:

Billy Mispel
Rt. 2 Box 4759
Crawfordville, Florida 32327

I will be copying the tapes in the order I recieve your order.For even
faster return of the videos e-mail me after you send off payment and
tell me which sessions you ordered.

Well that's it.I hope you enjoy the tapes.Any ?'s,drop a line.

Billy
PS.I would appreciate any gripes or comments.

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End of gymn Digest
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