GYMN-L Digest - 29 May 1996 to 30 May 1996

There are 17 messages totalling 441 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. FIG Code of Points
  2. Fwd: San Diego Adult Gymnastics Classes
  3. Gymnastics on TV in June
  4. A couple of random comments on the SportsChannel coverage of J.O.
  6. Greeting and Salutations
  7. Hi, I have some
  8. revisionist gymnastics history
  9. FRIENDS Financial status
 10. OOPSE!
 11. Introduction
 12. 1980 Olympic Video
 13. WAG-MAG: Grand Prix of Rome
 14. Irreverent Trivia #35 Answers
 15. "Spitfire" alert
 16. Devaluing vs.deductions
 17. judging


Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 06:55:13 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: FIG Code of Points

I would like to suggest a little different line of discussion about the Code
of Points and the administration of the rules in competition.  I would
suggest that the Code of Points, despite the efforts of the Technical
Committees, cannot and will never provide a tool that clearly discriminate
among the highest levels of performance in gymnastics.  In the 1968 Men's
Code of Points, a lengthy section is included on the difference between "High
B and C moves " and "Low B and C moves".  This was a clear and early
acknowledgement that levels of gymnastics can't be accurately evaluated with
just the use of a few letter values.  While that section no longer is
contained in the COP, the problem still exists.  Furthermore, the addition of
more letter values (F, G, H, I, J, etc.) will make the system so cumbersome
and complicated that they become unusable.  So, at the highest levels, judges
wind up using their "gymnastics sense" to separate the gymnasts.  Obviously,
this also creates the opportunity for judges to use their "political sense"
as well.

I would submit that, in the United States, we tend to look at rules as almost
sacred; in addition, we are the masters of "gamesmanship", the art of using
every detail of the rules to maximize our results.  Where we can get into
trouble is when we mix the results of "gymnastics sense" judging with
"political sense" judging and, when things don't go our way, calling it

It is my contention that we need to look more closely at the LEVEL of the
gymnastics performance, rather than just a rigid application of the rules.
 For example, these 2 floor routines have the same start value of 10.0:
     1.  Round off - flip flop - double twisting double layout (E), flaired
spindle to pirouette to split (D); press handstand. Front handspring - layout
front - layout front - layout front full twist (D + E); Round off - double
full - punch front (D); Round off - flip flop - double layout (D).
     2.  Round off - whip - 1 1/2 twist - layout front full (D + E), flair to
handstand pirouette to flair to split (D), press; front handspring - layout
front - layout front - layout front (D + D); front handspring layout front
full (D);  Round off flip flop double full - punch front (D).

     If the 2 routines are performed at the same level of exercise
presentation, by the rules, they should have the same score.  However, I
would submit that the first routine is vastly superior and should easily win.

                                            WHAT DO YOU THINK?


Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 14:10:55 -0500
From:    ***@INFOCOM.KIEV.UA
Subject: Fwd: San Diego Adult Gymnastics Classes

The only program that I know of for sure is the UCSD Campus Recreation
program. That's where I started, and I ended up coaching there too. I had a
great time, and I think Matt Kohls (on this list) is still coaching some
adult classes. In addition to the classes, there is/was an open work-out
that class takers can go to.
I don't remember the phone number, but the UCSD information number is:
(619) 534-EDNA and they can give the phone number for the Campus Recreation
department (you don't have to be a student to take the classes). Also, I
know that there are a couple of gyms in the area that have open workouts too
, in the evening and on the weekend. But, I have been gone for a couple of
years, and I am not sure what the times are etc. Possibly someone else on
the list has more info.



Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 12:13:34 EDT
From:    ***@BBN.COM
Subject: Gymnastics on TV in June

This is the latest info I have.  I've included diving because I'd
guess that a number of gymn-ers might be interested; note that the time
is almost certainly wrong for the diving, so check your local listings.

All times are Eastern.  Check your local listings in case of sudden changes:

June   8        BROADCAST: U.S. Nat'l Champs. (MW)/ 4:00-6:00 PM EDT, NBC
June   9        BROADCAST: U.S. Nat'l Champs. (MW)/ 3:00-4:00 PM EDT, NBC
June  15        BROADCAST: 1996 Women's European Champs. AA (W)/ ABC, 4:30 PM
June  22        BROADCAST: 1996 Women's European Champs. EF (W)/ ABC, 4:30 PM
                [no sign of the men :-(]
June  23        BROADCAST: U.S. Olympic Trials (diving) 2:00-6:00[?!] p.m. NBC
June  28        BROADCAST: U.S. Olympic Trials (Rhythmic) 7:30-9p.m. ESPN
June  28        BROADCAST: U.S. Olympic Trials (Rhythmic) 11:30p.m.-1 a.m..
                [presumably repeat of the above ESPN show]
June  29        BROADCAST: U.S. Olympic Trials (M)/ 4:00-6:00 PM EDT, NBC
June  30        BROADCAST: U.S. Olympic Trials (W)/ 2:00-3:00 PM, NBC
June  30        BROADCAST: U.S. Olympic Trials (W)/ 7:00-9:00 PM, NBC (live)



Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 12:18:03 EDT
From:    ***@BBN.COM
Subject: A couple of random comments on the SportsChannel coverage of J.O.

It was great to see this level of gymnastics get on TV, although
Maura Driscoll did not shine at drawing her interviewees out.
(Favorite malapropism:  "You're an old hat at this.")

Did anyone else notice that the FX music for one of the routines
included incidental music from the old "The Flintstones" cartoon show?



Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 12:51:10 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM

Does anyone have any information on new and used equipment for sale out there
in the world.  If you know of anyone or any company that offers equipment for
sale, e-mail me at




Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 12:22:09 +0100
From:    ***@ASUCLA.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Greeting and Salutations

I'm back...

Remember, if you dont have anything nice to say, scream it over the PA.



Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 12:54:04 +0100
From:    ***@ASUCLA.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Hi, I have some

dorky code questions.. specifically mens FX.

Is a double turn truly a B? Is there any value raising or extra brownies for
doing a  B-C, B-B, C-B, B-B-C or C-C?  What are the consequences for leaving
out any of the special requirements?

Is a triple turn a C? How about a jump double?  Are handstand pirouettes
worth anything?

Is a switch leap an A? or just have no value?

The fate of the universe hinges on these answers..

PJ Phair

P/S Does anyone have a list of As, Bs, and Cs?

I refuse to buy a code that is obsolete in a few months and a joke besides.
I also refuse to drink hot beverages, beverages should be cold and


Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 16:35:14 -0500
Subject: revisionist gymnastics history

A couple of days ago I was browsing in a bookstore and I ran across one of
the many new books about Olympic history.  I should have thought to note
the title and author, but I'm afraid I didn't.  What I did notice was that
they had a photo of a gymnast in a beautiful split leap.  The caption
stated that Tatiana Gutsu amazed everyone by winning the AA competition
even though she was only a raplacement gymnast for an injured Roza Galieva.
Although it bugged me to see a discredited story being publicized that
way, I was even more disturbed that the Tatiana in the photo was T.
Lyssenko, not T. Gutsu.  Sigh.  Some people should stick to writing
baseball books.


Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 16:22:10 -0500
From:    ***@CARLETON.EDU
Subject: Re: FRIENDS Financial status

>I must protest here.  Don't you figure, Dr. Ross Geller, our PhD totin'
>paleontologist makes more money working for the Museum of Natural History
>than old number crunching, B.S. holding, WENUS watcher Chandler?  I don't
>know, you may be right.  But I would think anyone with as much higher
>education as Ross has would (or at least *should*) warrant a larger

Well my phD carring professor make a HELL of a lot less than the average
business person.  Ross might have a higher position, but middle
management in a business is going to make about equal to what a top
intellectual makes.  Top business people can earn 200,000 or more a year
not even including fringe benefits like company cars, etc.  A top
professor isn't likely to bring in more than 100,000 for their salary.



Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 16:23:09 -0500
From:    ***@CARLETON.EDU
Subject: OOPSE!

Sorry!  Wrong email list.  Stupid, stupid me!


Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 17:33:48 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Introduction

   Hi, my name is Alicia. I am a 16 year old sophomore in high school.
I have been taking gymnastics for a few years now and the gym I go to also
does productions. This past summer we did a production to the soundtrak of
the Broadway hit "Oklahoma". We were asked to represent the USA in an
international exebition in Berlin, Germany.  The event which we were in was
"The Tenth World Gymnaestrada". There we met other delegates from other
countries and I learned a lot not only about gymnastics the sport itself but
about other cultures. It was truly an experience!!
   I have a pretty strenuous schedule and it seems like I am always at the
gym. Since this whole experience is still rather new to me I would love to
talk to those who can maybe share advice or just talk about the norm.  And
anyone who has ever heard of the Gymnaestrada PLEASE email me.
  I have to go now....bye


Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 19:34:18 -0400
From:    ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: 1980 Olympic Video

        I am now starting to regret my last post re Nelli Kim's BB
dismount.  So far nobody has told me the value of this skill, but I have
had at least 5 people e-mail me privately asking where I got this video
from.  I got it through a trade, but the original source is Frank Endo.
For those of you who get IG, there is usually a little ad at the end for
his video company and you can write/call for a list of videos and
prices.  I'm not sure if this is "allowed" on the list, but I'll put it
here, as I don't want anymore people asking me where I got this video.
        Frank Endo Co.
        18011 La Salle Avenue
        Gardena California
        (213) 770-0193


        Oh btw, I would still love to know what the value is of this
dismount, which was, to refresh your memory, was, from a one foot
take-off, tucked barani-in back-out.  Please, no more e-mails asking for
a copy of this video.  I already have a few people who I trade with and I
don't have time for more right now.


Date:    Thu, 30 May 1996 02:13:00 +0200
From:    ***@MICRONET.IT
Subject: WAG-MAG: Grand Prix of Rome

You can now find the results of the first day of the Grand Prix of Italy at
this internet address

There, click on the link "I risultati".

The main text (in italian) will be ready as soon as possible.


Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 22:28:16 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Irreverent Trivia #35 Answers

Da ta ta da . . . . [drum roll]

The winners of Trivia Quiz #35, Irreverent Trivia
are (eek! this quiz was tougher than I thought . . .):

First prize:  Book - Olympic Heroes: Ludmila Turischeva (1979), Viktor
Golubev  42 pp., photos, paperback.  English translation

Adriana  (7.0 points out of 10.0) **********

Second prize:  a 5x7 autographed photo of Milosovici (1991)

Jeff (4.0 points out of 10.0)

Winners, send me your addresses, please! <g>

1.  Name the only team to score 3 successive 10.0s in a Worlds or Olympic
Competition (one point each for gender/country and year of this achievement).

Romanian women, 1987

2.  Who was the first "star" of gymnastics in the modern Olympic Games [1896
on].  (one point each for name and nationality)

Hermann Weingartner, Germany (won a plethora of medals around the turn of the

3.  Name the famous twins of RSG in the late 1980s (one point)

Kamelia and Adriana Dunavska

4.  During US network ABC's broadcast of the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics, what
did "commentator" Jack Whittaker (usually a golf analyst) repeatedly call the
Balance Beam? (one point)

The Unbalanced Bar . . . can we guess where he was headed after the meet? . .
. ;-)

5.  Who was the first gymnast to land a triple-back on FX? (one point)

Valeri Liukin

6.  What two gymnasts from different countries wore alike and extremely
unusual leotards in the 1992 Olympic Games? (one point)

Svetlana Boginskaya (Unified Team/Belarus), Guilia Volpi (Italy) -- low-cut
black velour

7.  Who was the 1978 Romanian Women's AA Champ? Which gymnast finishing in
the top five had already competed in two Olympics? (one point for each part)

Emilia Eberle, Anca Grigoras

8.  Which twins competed on their country's national team for years, only to
have one miss the competition where his/her sibling won the World AA crown?
(one point)

Li Dashuaong & Li Xioashaoung

Hope you had fun!


Date:    Wed, 29 May 1996 22:41:58 -0400
Subject: "Spitfire" alert

     For anyone who hasn't seen the Kristie Phillips movie "Spitfire," it
debuts on HBO this Friday at 8 PM EST. I don't recommend it for kids, mainly
because of language, violence and a bit of nudity. The plot is also beyond
silly, but Phillips fans should find the movie entertaining and rather amusing,
if nothing else. The bars routine she does at the end is funny enough to make
sitting through the rest of the movie worth it! :)



Date:    Thu, 30 May 1996 07:06:28 GMT
From:    ***@PIPELINE.COM
Subject: Devaluing vs.deductions

Since there have already been many listings on this topic so far I'll try
to make this as short as possible.

The problem seems to be that many people see devaluing as the solution for
scores going too high. While it is obvious that every quadrennium we need
to devalue overused elements and combinations,it can't be the answer the
solution, because gymnasts will always find the easiest ways to fulfill
difficulty and combo requirements. Judges still then have to subjectively
decide, "okay, Susie did 7 D's, but they were all easy ones, as opposed to
Jenny who did 4 really hard D's. How do we reward Jenny when the code says
her routine was not as difficult?"

I would like for any judges or international elites on the list to discuss
why obvious errors, consistently displayed by well-known gymnasts, never
seem to get taken (for ex.,Pod's Gienger separation or Strug's beam
dismount). Every fan watching at home knows when these faults are coming,
so I don't want Elfi Schlagel telling me the judges can't see it. IMHO,
this is part of the reason why Gymnastics remains an elite,
non-understandable sport for the common joe. In figure skating if they fall
on their behinds, everyone watching knows the score will be lower. In gymn,
screwing up your routine in the early part of the rotation means you get a
gold medal (Khorkina-worlds). No wonder we are seen as one of the worst
judged sports in the Olympic program-and don't get me started on Rhythmic!

The best message we could send the sports community and viewing audience
would be to consistently judge form and technical deductions fairly. It
would go a long way to cleaning up the problems we always seem to be having
with the newest Code.




Date:    Thu, 30 May 1996 18:16:39 +1000
From:    ***@OZEMAIL.COM.AU
Subject: judging

>In order to be ethical as a judge does one have to force themselves not
>to watch the meets on TV?  I think Pods is the best example, she doesn't
>seem to get deducted for her form break on her Geinger and the
>commentators always say that it's because the judges sit on the side and
>can't see it.  I guess if I were a judge and saw it in slow motion, I'd
>be watching for it next time.
I did a judging course last week, and it was stressed that we judge what we
SEE, not what we know the gymnast can do/can't do.

Sometimes Lilia does an OK Gienger, but you have to remember that the TV
camera is in a different position to the judges, and they don't have the
benefit of a slow motion replay.



End of GYMN-L Digest - 29 May 1996 to 30 May 1996