GYMN-L Digest - 26 Jul 1996 - Special issue

There are 17 messages totalling 683 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. Poser program (2)
  2. Suggesting on Dawes' FX
  3. All Around eMagazine 2.25ww (fwd)
  4. Don't miss this one...
  5. Mo (2)
  6. tape without commercials!!!
  7. Womens AA Comments (2)
  8. Men's Gymnastics
  9. Women's AA
 10. event finals
 11. Strug to Skip Vault Finals
 12. Tesh, NBC, & Hooking in New Fans
 13. Steve Nuno
 14. WAG: Atlanta AA Finals.....


Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 21:26:16 +0200
From:    ***@XS4ALL.NL
Subject: Poser program

While reading a computer magazine I came across a review of 'Poser - The
Remarkable Figure Design Tool - for Windows 95' by Fractal Design

>Developed for graphic artists, illustrators, designers and multimedia
>mavens, Poser is the perfect tool for integrating the human figure
>into your creations. Poser can create any model you can imagine.
>Male, female and mannequin models can be rendered or displayed as
>wireframes, skeletons, silhouettes or stick figures. Choose from
>dozens of predefined models like infants, teenagers and superheros,
>or create your own by scaling and manipulating body parts. Poser
>comes with dozens of pre-defined poses. Select "walking" and your
>figure steps from the screen. Poses, body shapes, cameras and lights
>can be saved in libraries.     Computer artist Top Product 1995.

Has anybody on this list used this software?

Is is able to model gymnasts with the right muscle action, with colourfull
leos (not naked or with metallic, marble or even wood texture mapped skin)
and perhaps some facial expression and nice hairdo's.
Is it capable of simple animations like pirouettes or handsprings?

It would be nice to build a library of virtual gymnasts like Miller,
Kochetkova or Podkopayeva or anyone else for that matter.

Please share your experiences with this group.



Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:12:46 -0500
From:    ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: Suggesting on Dawes' FX

Hi guys!

I don't know what SV Dawes' optional FX started w/, but if somebody
knows, pls let me know.  You know what?  W/ all due respect to Kelli
Hill (she's a terrific coach), I think that if I were her, I'd take out
Dom's middle pass (w/ a punch front) and replace that w/ some flic-
flac's to a full twisting back tuck or pike.  Technically, to me, Dom
seems to execute/stick her full twisting back better than her punch
front, which she usually goes off-center.  But would the 2 full
twisting backs (she does it in her last pass) still give her a 10 SV?
I'm no expert or judge at all, so I may be wrong.  Huh?  Your thoughts
pls!  And big congrats to all the AA Olympians, I'm proud of 'em all!

P.S. My term for the full twisting back is probably wrong, but once you
know Dom's last tumbling pass, then you'll know what I'm talking about.
What is it exactly called anyways?  I'm drawing a blank here.


Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:57:44 -0400
From:    ***@UMICH.EDU
Subject: All Around eMagazine 2.25ww (fwd)

Look at how close these results is sad how a foot out of bounds
drops you from 1st to 5th.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:20:18 +0200
Subject: All Around eMagazine 2.25ww

All Around eMagazine  friday 26 july 1996  edition: 2.25ww


Lilia Podkopayeva of Ukraine clinched in a nail-biting finish
to a drama-packed individual all-around final.

Podkopayeva was impressive in each of the four disciplines
but had to wait for talented Chinese Mo Huilan to finish her
floor exercise.

Mo could have snatched victory but put of foot outside the
area to slip to a disappointing fifth place.
Romanian Gina Gogean took silver with her two compatriots
Simona Amanar and Lavinia Milosovici winning bronze.

These are the scores:

 1. Lilia Podkopayeva (Ukr)  39.255
    v  9.781     bb 9.787
    ub 9.800     fx 9.877

 2. Gina Gogean (Rom)        39.075
    v  9.775     bb 9.800
    ub 9.700     fx 9.800

 3. Simona Amanar (Rom)      39.067
    v  9.843     bb 9.725
    ub 9.762     fx 9.737

 3. Lavinia Milosovici (Rom) 39.067
    v  9.743     bb 9.775
    ub 9.737     fx 9.812

 5. Mo Huilan (Chi)          39.049
 6. Dina Kotchetkova (Rus)   38.905
 7. Rozalia Galiyeva (Rus)   38.905
 8. Shannon Miller (USA)     38.811
 9. Dominique Moceanu (USA)  38.755


Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:12:36 -0400
From:    ***@UNHF.UNH.EDU
Subject: Don't miss this one...

Hi, folks...
I apologize for the length of this posting, but I checked out the ESPNET
Sportszone (recommended by a few people on the gymn list) today and discovered
this article. If you can get past the references to "little girls" and look
beyond the fact that this writer has never had any respect for the sport of
women's gymnastics up till now, this is a tribute to the USA team and shows the
kind of impact the team gold is having on people who don't understand or care
very much about gym as a REAL SPORT!! I posted the article rather than just
referred to it because I'm aware that a number of us can't access the WEB yet.

In Atlanta, the Children Have Led Them
By Charlie Vincent
Special to ESPNET SportsZone

ATLANTA -- I apologize to all the little girls who have tumbled and vaulted and
cartwheeled their way through all the practice halls, under the watchful eyes
of all the demanding gymnastic coaches in the world.

I never felt they belonged in the Olympics; I felt they were being used, being
pushed to become athletes before they could be little girls.

Here, I have learned something.

In these Olympics -- Games that are living up to their advance billing as the
Olympics of the Woman -- in losing as well as in winning, the barely-teenagers
of the United States gymnastics team have given examples our other athletes
could learn from.

And so could we.

What Kerri Strug did was heroic, carrying her team and her country to the gold
medal on a bum ankle. What Dominique Dawes, Shannon Miller and Dominque Moceanu
did in Thursday's individual gymnastic events was just as riveting.

I have always been against these children participating in Olympics, not only
because of the stress on their little bodies, but because of the strain on their
families. Most leave home before they are teenagers to work with the most
renowned coaches in the world. It is not unusual for families to come apart as
a result; one parent approves of the move, the other doesn't. Or perhaps one
parent moves with the child and the other, often feeling abandoned, remains at
home. Alone.

It is a huge sacrifice if only for a gold medal.

This week, though, these youngsters showed the class and style and grittiness
and maturity that a lot of our other athletes -- in our professional leagues as
well as at these Olympics -- are missing.

When Dawes was leading after two rotations of the women's all-around Thursday
night, she gracefully descended the steps from the apparatus platform, eyes
straight ahead, her mind on what lay before her.
She did not strut.
She did not do a victory dance.
She did not do anything to say: Look at me! Look at me! Look at me!
Dominique Dawes was doing what she had gone to Atlanta to do, and it was still
a work in progress, and there was no time for posturing.

My complaint about these children being in the Olympics has always been that
we do not allow them time to be children. I think now, that is not the problem.
The problem is that we allow a lot of our athletes to behave like children for
too long.

Every touchdown is cause for a dance of personal victory. Every dunk is
occasion to swing on the hoop just long enough to make sure everyone notices.
Every home run is an opportunity to stand at home plate and admire it for just
a moment, to admire what *I* have done.

These little girls did none of that.

Dawes was first and Miller second going into the floor exercise Thursday, ahead
of the Romanians and the Ukraines and the Chinese who were supposed to dominate
the event. Moceanu had fallen behind after a poor start
on the balance beam. On the third rotation -- the floor exercise -- Miller
stepped out of bounds, and in that instant removed herself from the contenders.
And minutes later, Dawes, slightly off her mark on a tumble, slipped and skidded
out of bounds, too, a mistake that dropped her from first to 20th.

They no longer had a chance to medal, to stand on the podium, to realize the
dream of four years' work. But they had to carry on, to do one more routine --
for Miller and Dawes, it was the vault, and when Miller's first effort was a
poor one she broke into tears, but she dried them and followed with a vault
that earned a 9.856.
Dawes average vault was a respectable 9.681.

In defeat, in what they saw as personal failure, they dissolved in tears.
And we cried with them.

They did not posture and pose and say, "Ain't I great," when they won the team
title the other night. But they wept when they did not do well in the individual
competition, because they did not live up to their own expectations.

Not enough of us believe any longer the old adage: It's not whether you win or
lose, but how you play the game. These young women play it the way it was meant
to be played, with pride and fire and heart and commitment.

Maybe I'm looking the wrong places, perhaps I'm watching the wrong sports, but
it seems more and more these days, I see athletes who thump their chests at
personal triumph and shrug off defeat, whether it is team or

Our littlest Olympians have shown us how to win and how to lose in these Games.

Little girls, I apologize.

You are brave and you are mature, and American sports would be better off if
more of our athletes behaved like you -- not like the children you appear to
be, but like the mature people of purpose and value you have proven to be.


Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:10:08 -0400
Subject: Mo

I've yet to hear anyone rave about Mo Huilan. Her gymnastics is just
*gorgeous*!  I was very disappointed with her bars score.  I didn't
see any visible errors besides a very small correction on her dismount,
and  Her difficulty and form and swing were by far the best in the
 competition.  A 9.8??? Dawes scored a 9.812 for a routine that, while very
 dynamic, is not nearly as graceful, and she took a major hop on
her dismount.

  I'm also disappointed that some of the best gymnasts are missing from
event finals. Vault w/out Chuso,Pod, or Chorkina? (or Anna Portuondo
for that matter  :-))Bars w/out Mo, Migordskaya, or any of the Chinese
besides Wenjing?  Beam w/out Marinescu,Mo,  or Liu Xuan? Floor w/Out
the awesome tumbling of Chuso, the gorgeous dance of Yvonne Tousek, or
the incredible choreography of the French???

Who would be in other folks fantasy finals?



Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 15:34:18 -0500
Subject: tape without commercials!!!

Hi Everybody!

 I just wanted to let you all know that I have an 8 hour tape... so far I have
coverage of the women's team competition, the men's individual all around
competition and the women's individual all around competition... WITHOUT
COMMERCIALS... and I did tape the awards ceremony and national anthem from the
women's team competition... also an ABC world news report on Kerri Strug...

 I am planning on taping the individual event finals and the champions
alll on the same tape if it doesn't run out (so far, I have approximately 4
of the 8 hour tape used)... if anybody is interested, please email me
personally... I would like copies of any other broadcasts out there...

 On another note, I would like to congratulate all of the US gymnasts for doing
such a great job so far - they should be extremely proud of themselves!!!



Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:48:33 EDT
Subject: Womens AA Comments

I know we are all getting a little tired about NBC comments, but I thought
they did a MUCH better job at the women's (note - not girls) AA Final.  I
guess I have sort of learned to block out John Tesh the way Lilia said in
interviews she has learned to block out the loud American audience.  And
besides, the one comment I remember him saying last night was that Arkaev
coached the AMERICAN men  to a gold medal in the team competition.  That
comment was just funny.  I was a little shocked that Tim and Elfi didn't
correct him.

I'm glad Lilia won!  She was my favorite competing, but I really didn't think
she would win.  I was expecting Kochetkova or Marinescu (maybe she could have)
to go home with the gold.  I'm glad for the Romanians, too, especially Milo.
I really didn't expect Gogean to do well because of her recent appendectomy.

I hate to say this, but I was sort of glad that Mo Huilan didn't win.  As
much as I have enjoyed watching her in the past, I thought her beam score
was about 2 tenths too high.  I have no idea how the judges came up with
a 9.8???  After her large steps on her beam dismount, I said "she's out of
the race" and then she got a 9.8???  They must have had her start value
at a 10.20 on that one.  Anyway, I think if she would have won, everyone
would have said she didn't deserve it because she was overscored on beam.
It would have been another "black mark" in this sport.

I LOVED Milo's very genuine hugs given to Lilia at the end of the competition.
Milo seemed happy for herselt and for Lilia.  Both seemed to enjoy themselves.
It was nice to see female gymnasts look like they were having a little fun!
I hope that evil Joan Ryan woman <gr> interviews Lilia and Lavinia for her
next book!

Do Tim and Elfi have any say over which routines get aired on NBC?  I'm
asking because I was hoping to see a few routines by the French, and maybe
at least one by Piskun and Chusovitina.  And, I would have loved to have
seen Tousek's floor (still haven't seen it).  It seems that Tim and Elfi
would be knowledgeable enough to try to get some of these routines on
the air.  Maybe they have no say in the matter, but they should!

I'm looking forward to event finals.


Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:43:32 EDT
From:    ***@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
Subject: Men's Gymnastics

A belated congratulations to John Roethlisberger, Blaine Wilson and
John Macready in the all-around finals the other night.  It was
interesting to read in the paper that John and Blaine became the first
Americans to finish in the all-around top 10 in a non-boycotted Games.
The best all-around showing by an American was Peter Vidmar's silver-
medal performance in the Soviet-boycotted games of 1984.  The only other
Americans to finish in the top 20 are Scott Keswick (19th in 1992),
Charles Lakes (19th in 1988) and Wayne Young (12th in 1996).

Good luck to the men/women during the individual finals!!



Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:00:05 -0700
Subject: Women's AA

>re: Marinescu pulled from AA
>What I want to know if what 'bad habits' she picked up in Bucharest!?!

Form? Line? Choreography? Speaking her mind? Posture?

Just a few guesses.

Who'd much rather watch Amanar. ;-)

It's Gymnastics! Pod rocks.


Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:37:51 -0400
From:    ***@CORNELL.EDU
Subject: Re: Poser program

>Has anybody on this list used this software?
>Is is able to model gymnasts with the right muscle action, with colourfull
>leos (not naked or with metallic, marble or even wood texture mapped skin)
>and perhaps some facial expression and nice hairdo's.
>Is it capable of simple animations like pirouettes or handsprings?
>It would be nice to build a library of virtual gymnasts like Miller,
>Kochetkova or Podkopayeva or anyone else for that matter.

        I'm going to wander off on a tangent with my reply, but does anyone
remember an episode of PBS's "Nova" that aired three or so years ago after
Barcelona?  It featured, among other things, computer representations of a
number of gymnastics routines (and track and field events) that had been
created by compiling data from specially-arranged cameras around the
podiums.  It helped show the physics of the events, and showed in some cases
why one person did better than another one.
        Any idea whether that was just a one-time experiment, or did they do
it again?


Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:40:19 -0400
From:    ***@KENT.NET
Subject: Re: Mo

>  I'm also disappointed that some of the best gymnasts are missing from
>event finals. Vault w/out Chuso,Pod, or Chorkina? (or Anna Portuondo
>for that matter  :-))Bars w/out Mo, Migordskaya, or any of the Chinese
>besides Wenjing?  Beam w/out Marinescu,Mo,  or Liu Xuan? Floor w/Out
>the awesome tumbling of Chuso, the gorgeous dance of Yvonne Tousek, or
>the incredible choreography of the French???
I'm glad you brought this up.  I think Yvonne Tousek could possibly make
event finals someday, which would be excellent for a Canadian gymnast.
Unfortunately, she had a fall in the optionals during preliminary competition
and only scored a 9.187.  Her comp. score was 9.600, and her score
yesterday in the AA was 9.625.  Even if she would have hit her floor ex.
in prelims, she wouldn't have had the necessary scores to be in floor finals.
I think the reason for this is that underscoring continues to happen for
the lesser known gymnasts.  Not fair!!!!!!!!!

Other things I'll miss -- Teza on beam, Kui Yuanyuan on beam,
Furnon on floor, Mo and Li Xuan on bars, Grigory Mistutin on vault.


Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:42:43 -0400
From:    ***@KENT.NET
Subject: Re: Womens AA Comments

>Do Tim and Elfi have any say over which routines get aired on NBC?  I'm
>asking because I was hoping to see a few routines by the French, and maybe
>at least one by Piskun and Chusovitina.  And, I would have loved to have
>seen Tousek's floor (still haven't seen it).  It seems that Tim and Elfi
>would be knowledgeable enough to try to get some of these routines on
>the air.  Maybe they have no say in the matter, but they should!
Especially since Elfi is'd think she'd want everyone to see
Yvonne's awesome routines.  She got 9.625 on floor, and 9.575 on beam.
Both are beautiful exercises.



Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:55:19 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: event finals

Is there a per country limit in event finals like there is in the all around?
If there is, could someone please post the limit. Thanks in advance.

Yours in gymnastics,



Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:07:59 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Strug to Skip Vault Finals

I just saw an Associated Press update that said that Kerri Strug will skip
the vault finals to focus on the floor ex finals.  According to the article,
floor ex puts less stress on her ankle, and she will have one extra day to
rest.  A decision will be made on Sunday.

I think that means that Shannon Miller will compete vault finals in her
place, right ?



Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:14:05 -0400
From:    ***@USA.NAI.NET
Subject: Re: Tesh, NBC, & Hooking in New Fans

> >In broadcasts of figure skating, the network often shows short segments
> >explaining some of the types of jumps and required elements.  Some
> >well-known skater is always featured, demonstrating said elements, and
> >there are some uncomplicated little arrows and diagrams helping to
> >illustrate the moves.
> >
> >Why not do this with gymnastics next time, NBC?  Some of the repetitive
> >fluff pieces about the the gymnasts' stories could easily be replaced with
> >more information about the sport itself.  These aren't half hour segments,
> >we're talking three or five minutes here and there - focusing on one or two
> >specific elements.  This is a great opportunity to show clips from the past
> >of the gymnasts performing moves named for them, another way to hook in the
> >newer fans.
> I agree totally.  Carole Orchard hosts a little segment called "Chalk Talk" on
> CBC which focusses on different elements of gymnastics.  Sometimes
> she features the historical aspect, i.e. Japanese gymnasts like Tsukahara
> during Sabae.  She also highlights the technical aspects of the sport, i.e.
> amplitude (internal and external).  She even did a segment about chalk and
> how gymasts use it.  Other ideas could include a breakdown of the
> requirements for each event, showing examples.  Also, a breakdown of
> the different deductions that can be taken on landings would be good.
> This would help new gymnastics fans to know what to look for when they
> are watching a routine.
> Jordynn
> >
> >Just my thoughts, back to lurking :-)
> p.s. Please don't!!! Sounds like you have some great input!!
> >
> >Great minds think alike ...

Somewhere during the compulsories, one of the NBC announcers started to
talk about the technical requirements for the compulsory exercise.  I
thought at the time it'd be a nice idea (instead of some of the "fluff"
pieces) if they showed a few minutes from the judges training videos and
explained gymnastics scoring to the masses.  I suspect most of us could
understand the compulsory scoring.  Optionals gets tricky, especially
with all the various connection bonuses.  Even judges sometimes have a
hard time with it.


Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:18:01 -0400
From:    ***@USA.NAI.NET
Subject: Re: Steve Nuno

> >Okay, I'm on this list in digest form at the moment,
> >so about a million people have probably already posted
> >this, but I'm so damn mad I just had to write
> >*something*!!!!
> >
> >Is it possible that Steve Nuno is THE most insensitive
> >person on the fact of the entire earth?????
> >
> >I've never seen Shannon cry like that at a competition,
> >and for him to stand there and tell her what she did
> >*wrong* . . .  and then tell her to "suck it up and stop
> >crying". . . .
> >
> I agree totally!!!!!!!  I was really mad when I saw that.  Especially
> when he said "Stop crying.  There are people *everywhere*."
> What Shannon needed then was a hug and some encouragement.
> She didn't need to be told what she did wrong; she probably already
> knew that.  I felt so sorry for her and I lost a lot of respect for
> Steve Nunno.
> Jordynn

I'm not sure I'd condemn coach Nunno.  He's worked with Shannon for
awhile and might know her a bit better than the rest of us.  Maybe he
was doing the right thing by her.  As a coach, I wouldn't handle an
athlete that way, but I've never coached an Olympian, either.


Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:12:56 -0600
Subject: WAG: Atlanta AA Finals.....

(I have to say that I was more satisfied with NBC - but not competely.)

1) Pods. This was so cool. I actually heard about this on CNN. They broke
into there news coverage and said it just ended and I heard the announcer
stumble over Lilla abd I went 'YES!' Then more news about the Romanian
success. It was great!

        Well, Pods now has the distinction of winning the 'REAL' triple
crown of gymnastics. Worlds, Europeans, and Olympics and all in less
than one year. Cool! She was the best and deserved the victory. It made me
feel good that 'order has been restored in the gymnastics universe' (a.k.a.-
Bob Costas's comments about the dream team) Anyone else notice a legs together
geinger? Someone has been working. Her great FX still got little appreciation
from the crowd. But still, she did her job.

2) Gogean. Who is she? I didn't thinks she did anything besides bars and
vault. ISn't she a specialist? NBC, care to tell me more??

I was happy that they did meantion her appendicitous and it did make her success
even more great. You may not like her gymnastics Elfi, but you got to respect
her drive. It was just like Shannon having surgery prior to Barcelona.

3) Amanar and Milo. Amanar looks like she works out in Beijing with the
Men's chinese team on vault. Moceanu could have walked under her double
full!!! She
's not compete, lacking in some areas of presenation, but it's hard to
complain about pure athletic ability. Note: Elfi could have walked under
her triple full on FX!!

Milo: A true heroine. She stuck with it and stayed around and I was happy
to see her wear bronze. She was also congradulatory of Pods and other
gymnasts. How often did you see the US gymnast congradulate others outside
of their group.

5) Mo. Mighty Mo. She had a few questions on beam with that dismount, but lost
it all in the end on FX. She'll be around and fifth place is no shame.
She should win a medal in EF.

6) Dina, Dina, Dina. Oh yes, the one I talked about. I am so glad that the
world finally got to see her work. The only one who didn't give up
anything on UB, BB, and FX on the landings. I was so happy that Elfi
was favorable about her beam routine, and I'm glad everyone got to see
why she's the world champ. Her FX music and dance was the same as in
the 1994 routine, but she changed the third pass. Again, this routine had
everyone clapping to it in 1994, but not in this crowd. When I saw her in
the lead going into vault, I knew this would be heart breaker. She did
what she had to do, and her other vault, a handspring pike front with  a
half, might have got her a medal, but we'll never know. She's never been
a great RO entry vaulter, but she tried. I wept alittle, but took comfort in the
fact that she was leading and she can still compete with the best regardless
of what pthers may say. Two days from her 19th birthday, I hope she gets
medal in EF as a present.

7) Roza Galieva. I can't believe the FX problem happened to her again. And the
score made NO SENSE whatsoever. She's great and I hope that she'll compete in
next years's worlds for Russia again. Now, I'd rather see her life story on the
silver screen than Bogi's. Best thing about her finish, she finished higher
than the american gymnasts, who she could compete with at their level and
deserved moe recognition. Atleast people will see her name when they
scan down to see Shannon's below her's.

8) Miller. What happened? An easier vault? She gave up. She's no fighter
anymore. When she can't win AA she used to fight back. She fought back as
nationals in 1995. I don't care if this is the Olympics. Everyone has
to fight back at times, just like everyone has to compete infront of
hostile crowds. 8th place was little high for me.

Likewise, Moceanu's placement was high, too. Dawes was the only USA
athlete I felt for. Because she's had this happen to her before in
two worlds. I cried for her, but kind of cheered Moceanu's mistakes.
[It's an opinion. I'm allowed to have them.]

Next Superlatives......


Dina, Dina, Dina.


End of GYMN-L Digest - 26 Jul 1996 - Special issue