GYMN-L Digest - 26 Jul 1996 - Special issue

There are 19 messages totalling 612 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

1. Tape of women's optional coverage
2. LIMIT YOUR POSTING!; Miller/Nunno
3. Rosa/Dawes floor scores???
4. Steve Nuno (2)
5. WAG AA Comments
6. Gutsu/Galiyeva/Marinescu
7. The AA....
8. Wall Street Journal Criticizes NBC/TV Rights/and Country Limits
9. WAG All-around
10. Nunno/Dawes' fx score
11. WAG AA
12. Gymanstics bashing in NY POST
13. .2 deduction rule
14. Tousek's 1st 2 results & Amanar replaces Marinescu
15. The US CROWD
16. WAG AA & IG
17. Romanians
18. WAG AA - spoiler

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:31:42 -0400
From: ***@MINDSPRING.COM
Subject: Tape of women's optional coverage

I would also like a tape of the women's optionals - if it's all 3 rounds
(Greece, France, etc.). Please email me.
--
--- Jeff

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:39:23 +0000
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject: LIMIT YOUR POSTING!; Miller/Nunno

As many of you have discovered, Gymn has a limit of 50 msgs a day which we
have exceeded over the past few days, causing many msgs to be delayed.

The problem, in my opinion, is not the 50 msg limit but the people who make
the frivolous posts that push that limit. I have never seen so many "I
agree!" or other one-liners with nothing of value to add to the discussion.
Not to mention so many msgs for tape requests (oh so boring to the rest of
us), or so many msgs off the topic of gymnastics. Twice we've had people
volunteer to be the tape coordinator to cut down on the bandwidth-wasting
msgs to Gymn, but everyone seems to disregard it. Whomever is coordinating
that, I would appreciate it if you repost your address to the list in the
hopes of cutting down these msgs...?

Please remember the key guideline: make sure your post is about gymnastics!

For the duration of the Olympics, let's also use a new guideline: if you
post more than once a day, you better have something amazingly worthwhile in
your second and subsequent msgs. With a 50 msg limit, I want to read 50
different people's opinions, not six msgs all from the same person. Let
other people have their turn.

--------

Re: Miller, Nunno, and the "suck it up" which was broadcast on TV. Miller
has been with Nunno for over ten years. I think he understands her
temperment more than we do. What needs to be said to Miller after a routine
like that, is different from what needs to be said to a gymnast like Dawes,
and I have faith in the coaches to know and handle that difference
(reference: the post from Bill Foster regarding his two very different
athletes).

I found what Nunno said to Miller to be very no-nonsense comments aimed at
getting her focused for her next event. Miller is a trooper, and does not
need to be handled with kid gloves. She is one of the finest athletes to
grace the sport of gymnastics, and one of the reasons for that is the fact
that she is mentally strong.

Imagine the same situation with a male athlete in Miller's place, or perhaps
a female athlete not in a "performance" sport (such as, basketball, judo,
track and field...); no one would even think twice about Nunno's comments.

Rachele

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:41:24 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Rosa/Dawes floor scores???

> Can someone tell me what deductions they took to give her
>such a low score, like a 9.6 something.
>Also with Dawes, I thought that she only had the one major deduction, the
>fall...isn't that a .5? Where did they come up with a 9.0???

It is impossible to know what deductions they really took. However, both
will have had problems with their start value. Not having a 10.0 SV makes
your score plummet very quickly.

Dean

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:41:46 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Steve Nuno

>>I've never seen Shannon cry like that at a competition,
>>and for him to stand there and tell her what she did
>>*wrong* . . . and then tell her to "suck it up and stop
>>crying". . . .
>>
>I agree totally!!!!!!! I was really mad when I saw that. Especially
>when he said "Stop crying. There are people *everywhere*."
>What Shannon needed then was a hug and some encouragement.
>She didn't need to be told what she did wrong; she probably already
>knew that. I felt so sorry for her and I lost a lot of respect for
>Steve Nunno.

If this all relates to Shannon's vault, I must admit that I think Steve did
the right thing. A coach is supposed to tell his gymnast what they did wrong
so that it may be improved upon in the next vault. I don't know why Shannon
was crying after her first vault. Throwing a 9.9SV vault virually assured no
medal even for a perfect score.

Dean

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:39:56 -0700
From: ***@MARLIN.UTMB.EDU
Subject: WAG AA Comments

I haven't seen anyone comment on the pieces that NBC did on Tatiana Gutsu yet.
I enjoyed very much seeing her
again (I have always wondered what happened to her) and I think she looks
wonderful! Some people are probably
going to post that she's overweight (like they did about Kim Zmeskal), but I
think that these are the sizes
that these girls would have been all the time if they weren't gymnasts. She's
much prettier with the added
weight and shape. How many times did Tesh say "painted little bird"? Gag.

Ok. Does anyone *NOT* know that Tatiana replaced Roza Galieva in the all-around
in Barcelona? Give me a
break! Tesh re-told the story every time the camera landed on Roza. Jeez! I
had to laught out loud when he
said "for those of you who don't know, the beam is 4 feet off the ground and 4
inches wide!". John -- HOW
COULD WE *NOT* KNOW?

Podkapayeva looked great. She is really deserving of the all-around medal. I
am really happy for the
Romanians also. I would have liked to see Dina medal, but still am very proud
of her too. I also wish that
Khorkina had placed higher. Isn't this the first time that the all-around
champion *didn't* come from the gold
medal team?

I loved the interaction between Milo and Pods. Milo was *genuinely* happy for
Lilia.

I'm not happy that our (the USA) gymnasts faltered, but it *did* calm the crowd
down and the other gymnasts
were able to concentrate much better.

The "Amazing Grace" ending was a little melodramatic, don't you think? I'd have
much rather seen the medal
ceremony, but hey, what did I expect?

I hope that Dawes and Miller can get it together before the even finals. Both
are quite capable of taking home
a medal on an individual event.

Overall, *much* better coverage than Tuesday night.

Joel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:51:18 -0400
From: ***@FLX.COM
Subject: Gutsu/Galiyeva/Marinescu

Did anyone else notice how much more attractive and natural Tatiana
Gutsu looks today? She also looks healthier -- now that she's being
allowed to eat! And apparently that gold medal bought her a beautiful
home in the U.S. What a contrast to that tiny apartment in the Ukraine,
where her parents were raising 6 kids. It's interesting how 12 one
thousandths of a point can completely affect your economic status for
the rest of your life. Poor Roza Galiyeva -- she seems to be such an
intense, sensitive girl. We all knew she had no knee injury in '92.
Now -- unlike in Iron Curtain times -- we see directly how one young
girl's dreams were taken away by the old Russian system. Faced with
the same situation, why did Marinescu seem so unaffected and content,
chomping away on her bubble gum?

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 06:51:33 -0700
From: ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject: The AA....

First off, I will say congrats to Pods, she
did a beautiful job and really derved to win as much, if not more than
anyone. Let me also say that I feel really bad for Mo, Moceanu, Miller,
Dawes, Dina, Korhina and all of the rest. All are terrific gymnasts and
I hope that they all get a medal of some color in the event finals.

Second, I thought that some of the judging
was kinda off. Mo's beam was no where near deserving of a 9.8. Moceanu
made a mistake of about the same callibur and was given only a 9.6. I
also think that Dawes routine wasn't bad enough for a 9.000. Isn't a
fall only .5? And Rosa's floor routine wasn't bad at all and she was
only in the 9. range? I don't understand that at all.

Third, I hope that the Americans don't feel
as though they disappointed anyone. I'm not at all. they all finished
in the top 20 and 2 finished in the top 10. I hope that they can put
this behind them and move on to the EF along w/Mo, Dina and Korhina.

I think that this AA was about taking
advatage of others misfortunes. Some of the greatest gymnasts took a
beating out there but that doesn't make them any less in my book.


Laura


CONGRATS TO PODS!!!!

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:24:50 PDT
From: ***@POP.NET
Subject: Wall Street Journal Criticizes NBC/TV Rights/and Country Limits

Comments about NBC

For those of you who may not have seen the comments in the Wall Street
Journal (25 July) about the gymnastics, I thought you might enjoy some
excerpts:

"Here's an idea: In World Series games: let's start televising only the
times the American league is at bat. That kind of cockeyed thinking excluded
much of the Russian women's gymnastics team's events in the gymnastics
finals...Admittedly, the U.S. team made for terrific, compelling television,
but John Tesh kept assuring viewers the medal race was nail-bitingly close,
and we had to take his word for it. Most of the time the Russians got on TV,
it was for falling down."

"Tuesday night, as the U.S. women gymnasts captured the gold, 27.2% of all
U.S. households with televisions were tuned it. NBC milked the suspense
until midnight with manipulative cliffhangers ("We'll come back with Shannon
Miller's score on the floor exercise!")even though the event ended five
hours earlier.

"Nearly a week into the Games and the viewers still don't have a sense of
who are the non-U.S. stars of this Olympiad: this years' Olga Korbut,
Alberto Tomba, Johann Olav Koss. The only non-U.S. athletes whose
personalities have emerged were French cyclist Jeannie Longo-Ciprelli and
Siberian wrestler Alexandr Karelin, and that's only because NBC compared her
to mean spirited Ty Cobb and him to "a monster."

Don't non-U.S. athletes have family tragedies to overcome, beloved stuffed
animals, or poverty-stricken parents watching at home..."

-------------------------------------

Wishful Thinking

1) I wish the IOC would not limit itself to awarding a television contract
to only one U.S. network. Perhaps different venues could be awarded to
different networks. Not only could the IOC increase its revenue intake, but
the networks themselves would have a better indication about the kind of
coverage people really want to watch. Certainly women may be interested in
the athletic drama, but it has to be real and not fabricated drama. Might
there have been just as much drama in the accomplishments of some of the
non-U.S. athletes? Drama can also come from watching non-U.S. athletes
compete and from watching top athletes excel. Straightforward coverage is
infinitely better than fabricated drama. I think NBC would be surprised
about how people would vote with their remote controls.

2) I wish the FIG would do away with the
three-gymnasts-per-country-in-the-AA rule and the
two-gymnasts-per-country-in-the-event-finals rule. As long as the top
gymnasts are excluded from the finals because of team limits, I agree with a
team's right to substitute gymnasts. Similarly, if the goal is really to
prevent teams from substituting gymnasts, then the FIG should reinstitute
carry over scores. Since there are no carry over scores, I see the rules as
implicited permitting a country to make substitutions. But again, I would
like to see the world's best gymnasts qualify for the finals, irrespective
of how many of their compatriots may already have qualified.

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:20:11 +0200
From: ***@STH.FRONTEC.SE
Subject: WAG All-around

In yesterday's all-around, why did Amanar score so low on floor, and
Galieva so low on vault?

/ Anja

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:31:59 EDT
From: ***@BWALK.DM.COM
Subject: Re: Steve Nuno

> If this all relates to Shannon's vault, I must admit that I think Steve did
> the right thing. A coach is supposed to tell his gymnast what they did wrong
> so that it may be improved upon in the next vault. I don't know why Shannon
> was crying after her first vault. Throwing a 9.9SV vault virually assured no
> medal even for a perfect score.
>
> Dean Ratliff

Steve's toughness might have helped Shannon to finish her last AA performance
brilliantly. Just my opinion, People might not like him, but it did work for
Shannon
Regards,Marina
P.S. Even without stepping out of bounds, she probably would not get a medal.


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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:19:04 -0500
From: ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: Nunno/Dawes' fx score

I have a different take on Nunno's comments to Shannon than most of you do.
If I'd been in Shannon's shoes, I think I'd have needed exactly what Nunno
did. What I would want more than anything else right then is to have my
coach not fall apart with me and not support my falling apart. Later,
after the competition, I'd want _lots_ of hugs and quiet attention, but not
when I had another event left. And even later, I don't think it would be
good for me to have my coach buy into the idea that this was a huge
catastrophe.

Some people seemed to think that Nunno's comments were uncaring. I didn't
see that. What I saw was that Nunno was normalizing the situation.
Shannon was, understandably, treating her floor performance as the disaster
of a lifetime. Nunno, on the other hand, was treating it as just a mistake
or two made in a single competition. Sure it's the Olympics, but treating
the Olympics as a life or death situation is a sure-fire way to psych
yourself out, perform poorly, and have a miserable time doing it.

I usually don't like Nunno's style, but I actually thought he handled
Shannon's mediocre (not awful) floor routine in a very compassionate way.
Shannon _hates_ making mistakes; I suspect that lots of overt sympathy
would have made her feel like a failure right then, while steady, normal
coaching probably felt supportive. I suspect that Shannon felt respected
and cared for by Nunno last night.

-----------------------

As for Dawes on fx, I don't know why she got the score she did, but I can
make some guesses. First of all, when she fell, didn't she go out of
bounds? Take off another tenth for that, or possible two since she
probably had both feet slip out? Second, what did the fall do to her start
value? If I remember correctly, that was her only two somi pass. With the
lost connection bonus, she may have started from a 9.8 or 9.9.

All of a sudden, 9.0 seems pretty appropriate.

Ilene, who wishes she knew more about judging

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:20:28 -0400
From: ***@GNN.COM
Subject: WAG AA

I have to say that the Women's AA was a somewhat disappointing competition.
I would much rather see everyone hit their routines, and then see how they
rank. So many sad and surprising mistakes (Khorkina fell off BARS?!). The
Romanians three AA medals proved it pays to be consistent, rather than
flashy. For me, Amanar is the only one of the three with medal-worthy
routines -- the others are just safe and code-smart. Lilya, of course, is a
truly deserving champion.

Also, I think Marinescu was quite obviously *acting* not upset in the
stands, chomping that gum to show the world that she didnt care. I think
Belu pulled her from AA finals to spite Bucharest -- isn't he expected to be
replaced by a Bucharest coach soon?

NBC, since gymnastics is so popular, how about a Best of the Rest program?
You could show some great routines -- Teza's beam, Chusovitina's floor
(PLEASEPLEASE), Kui Yuanyuan's beam, Tsvaridou, Severino, Tousek,etc.
Please, just an hour? John Tesh can call them "tiny, painted, little
girl-birds dancing for gold," I don't care!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:52:08 EDT
From: ***@BWALK.DM.COM
Subject: Gymanstics bashing in NY POST

Anyone saw today's NY Post? It is the worst rubbish I have seen in years.

"Shed tears for sheer lunacy in all" - by Wallace Mathews.
It is about the "destruction of little girls".

In sports only 1 pesron gets gold. Liliya was the most consistent among
the top gymnasts, that's why she WON. She practically does not have a weak
event -a true champion!

Do u really think that Shannon, and Dom D and the rest lead unhappy lives?
Both of them had a productive carrer, much to be proud of.

And again, compalains about Bela. Bela is Bela - he loves to be in the
limelight.

Romaninans were not brilliant, but steady - they did use others mistakes
to their advantage, but Liliya was unbeatable in all respects.
MLV

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:39:27 -0400
From: ***@NORFOLK.INFI.NET
Subject: .2 deduction rule

Regarding the post suggesting that each non-United States gymnast receive an
automatic .2 deduction for not being American, I have an idea I think each
non-American gymnast should receive a bonus of .2 for just being able to
complete there routines and be a good sport about the whole thing!

Yes, I am very happy for the team gold and proud of everyone's efforts on
the team. The coverage of the other teams is shameful. Gina Gogean won the
silver medal and they showed very little of her.

The biggest disgrace of last night's AA final, IMO, was the absence of the
award ceremony. Pods achieved the highest honor possible for a gymnast--an
individual all-around Gold medal. Did any of us get to see the joy and
sense of accomplishment she must have felt as the Gold medal was placed
around her neck? HELL NO! That is pathetic.
The early bird cathces the worm--no one throws it up in his nest

Connie

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:42:47 -0400
From: ***@GRFN.ORG
Subject: Re: Tousek's 1st 2 results & Amanar replaces Marinescu

Gymnastics poltics

By the poeple we know and hate

ChapterOne : The Early Years: Sandy Woolsey and Kim Kelly
Written by Bela Karolyi, the other US coaches

Chapter Two: Barcelona, 1996, Tatiana and Roza
Written by Alexander Alexandrov

Chapter Three: Poor Alexandra
Written by Octavian Belu

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:58:54 -0400
From: ***@PHARM.MED.UPENN.EDU
Subject: Re: The US CROWD

gymn members:

During the podium training I spent 1 session in the stands before going to
work - after a couple of minutes the people around me noticed my credential
and started asking questions - it was men's podium training - comps.

the first question - How many events?

the last question - Which team won?

you can fill in the middle - I spent the entire session educating people on
what they were watching on the floor - by the end of the hour I had over 30
people who had never been to a gym meet listening to every word I said. Not
one person sitting next to me could fill in or make comments. Most were
coming back to sessions.

There was more cheering for foreign gymnasts from the crowd during podium
training than the competition, especially comps because the gymnast would
start working opts. and the crowd was so excited to see a big trick.

If I get time I will try to add more.

this is not an excuse for inappropriate treatment of our guests to the US,
but just to let the gymn community know what an incredibly gymnastically
ignorant crowd is in the dome.

Bruce Willis playing with his popcorn and hiding behind his drink does not
help, at least demi moore was clapping.

more later
Mayland

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:38:18 CDT
From: ***@ADMIN.STEDWARDS.EDU
Subject: WAG AA & IG

What a night! Although I would have loved to see Dawes and Miller on the
victory stand, I, for one, am extremely thrilled with the results. Pod was very
deserving of the crown. And after all the Romanian-bashing that has occurred on
this forum and elsewhere...I have three words...Gogean, Amanar, Milo! These
girls know how to win;when it pays to be consistent they deliver. Amanar
is possibly the world's best on floor and vault. Event finals should be a real
treat.

Most touching moment...Milo giving Pod a sincere hug after her floor.

What more can be said about Milo? Do you realize that she's the first gymnast
to medal in the AA in two consecutive Olympics since Nadia did it in 76
and 80?! That's a wonderful accomplishment and one of which her country
must be very proud.

I received my IG yesterday and I wanted to share an interesting point with all
of you. On page 37, 11 gymnastics experts (including our friends Rachele, Susan
Southall and Nancy Raymond :>) give their predictions for medals in Atlanta in
team and AA. Susan wins for her predictions for the men...she was dead on!
No one predicted the top three women's teams with 100% accuracy, though Dwight
Normile came closest (he predicted 1.USA, 2. Romania, 3.Russia) And who could
have predicted last night's results!? 6 of the 11 picked Pod, only two had
Gogean in the top three, 1 included Milo in his top three , and only Susan
predicted a medal for Amanar. Check it out.

I applaud NBC for last night's coverage...a major improvement over Tuesday.
MANY articles I've read in the press have criticized the coverage for the same
reasons we've read on this forum: no foreign gymnasts featured in team
championship, no medal ceremonies, Tesh, etc. I though last night's coverage
was exceptional. I, too, wish we could have seen the medal ceremony :<

On to EF!!


In a gymnastics fan's heaven,

Cole


simona, simona, simona....milo, milo, milo!!!!

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:40:43 -0400
From: ***@KENT.NET
Subject: Re: Romanians

>re: Marinescu pulled from AA
>
>What I want to know if what 'bad habits' she picked up in Bucharest!?!
>
>Joy I totally agree with you. She had the scores to qualify she deserved
>to go on to the competition. Amanar did great, she was terrific on her
>second vault espcailly.
>
>I'm happy to see them all take medals. -- Lisa
>
I know there's kind of a rivalry between the Bucharest-trained gymnasts
and the Deva - trained gymnasts in Romania. Maybe this had
something to do with it.

Jordynn

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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:30:19 -0400
From: ***@FREENET.SCRI.FSU.EDU
Subject: Re: WAG AA - spoiler

This has been a great Olympics for me. First the American women win
gold. Then my absolute favorite gymnast (Pod) wins. I know that a
gymnasts has won Worlds and Olympics back to back before Lilia (I know
who, but I can't spell the name) but did anyone also win Europeans? I
think Lilia is one of the greatest athletes in history.

A member of the race that knows Joseph
Angela


> This was beautiful to watch. I noticed Piskoun congatulating her at
Worlds, too. And I loved it when Lilia ran into her coach's arms.>
>
The best part of this broadcast was seeing everyone console/congratulate
> each other - the best pods/milo and pods/piskoun.
____________________________________________________________________________

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 26 Jul 1996 - Special issue
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