GYMN-L Digest - 23 May 1996 - Special issue

There are 21 messages totalling 610 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. GYMN-L Digest - 18 May 1996 to 19 May 1996 (2)
  2. Stereotypes
  3. '97 FIG changes (5)
  4. Now everyone is an attorney...
  5. Time for me to say Good Bye
  6. Hate mail
  7. Kim Z. on TV
  8. Shannon Miller
  9. This stinks and I've had it
 10. USA-trivia-10s
 11. bars transitions
 12. Where's Fabrishnova?
 13. Subscription suggestion
 14. I'm Offended!
 15. New Gymnastics Book
 16. Calm down everybody!!!!


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 03:03:11 -0700
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 18 May 1996 to 19 May 1996

> ------------------------------
> Date:    Sat, 18 May 1996 10:22:49 -0400
> From:    ***@INETNOW.NET
> Subject: Re: Spartanburg, S.C.
> Ok, Texx, here you go. You just called me and Dean bigots. Why? Because we

I didnt call Dean a bigot.
I told him he was misinformed and asked him to leave the gay stuff to me since
I have better data.

> raised the issue of over whether USA gymnastics should get involved in these
> political fights? You jumped the gun, and immediately wrote a long winded
> post condemning everybody who did not agree with USA gymnastics decision to
> THREATEN to pull the men's training out of Spartanburg, S.C.
> You called them bigots. I have nothing aganist gay people. What I do have a
> problem with is people who get on public forums and INSULT OTHER MEMBERS
> PERSONALLY. I am not going to be called names and take it sitting down.

I never said it was over the merits of being gay
(It sux, but Im living the hand dealt me)

What *I* said was that when a local official makes a bigotted statement,
and the comunity lets it slide, it should be asumed that the comunity aproves
of the remark, hence any boycot against the comunity id fair game.

I can not abide USA gymn spending even a DAY in a comunity that advocates

You have blathered about several unrelated issues.

#1  While the "stars & bars" remind folks about slavery, those who like it
    are not talking about return to slavery, so shuddap about it OK ?
    The USA has always been a bunch of mavericks, the stars and bars
    reflect far more than the cruel practice of slavery that happened under
    that flag.  And those OTHER things are why we should be cautious about
    banning the rebel flag.

    My native ancestors considered the "bent cross" a sign of fertility.
    Now because Hitler used it, we must be careful about its use.

#2  Declaring an official language is not bigotry.  The US is in the minority
    NOT having an official language.  Whats wrong with that ?
    When I go to FrAnce, if I have business with the govt there, it is
    presumed that i will deal in french.  Ssame Mexico & spanish,
    Brazil & portugese, and in China I must deal with the govt in chinese.

    I do not support multi lingual ballots.  If you vote, you must be citizen.
    If you cant read enough to vote then you really dont have enough of a grasp
    of whats going on.  Now the voters pamphlet... THATS a horse of another
    color !  That thing is incomprehensible even in english !
    I support english only ballots, but the voters pamphlets SHOULD be
    multi lingual.

#3  Do you REALLY think they will EVER enforce prop 47 ?
    The courts will shred that law.  It has never been in place since it was
    taken to court the morning after it passed.

    Also, this bill was hotly debated before the election, hence the state is on
    record as NOT being 100% behind the bill.  The hate from Spartanburg was
    NOT locally pretested.

    I also point out that we have a legal procedure for entering this country.
    This misguided law is a poorly engineered law for dealing with people who
    entered the US illegally and technically are criminals.

    These people are different from people I know whos family entered LEGALLY.
    Carlos, Angel, Trish & Kathy, Joaquin, Sandy, and many other friends I
    have who entered the US properly.  I also remember the lunchtimes we
    spent at DUAL, helping Hui cram for his citizenship exam.
    (Im a good speller, but he makes me look sick, and he only learned English a
    few years ago !)

    How many countries can you gain citizenship without knowing the local

You seem to be mixing issues here.

> If you want to discuss the merits of homosexuality, go to a gay and lesbain
> chat room, or to or some other newsgroup. I am discussing

We dont have chat rooms in e-mail.
Chat rooms are for BBS dweebs.

> a legitmate issue that was brought up by our local newspaper involving USA
> GYMNASTICS. My local TV station asked the same question.

Apparently your local station sees no problem with letting communities issue
hateful proclamations without repercussions.


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 03:35:34 -0700
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 18 May 1996 to 19 May 1996

Before you beat me over the head,
I botched my mail header.

I was trying to send a privarte reply to wassisname at

It is VERY hard to reply to a single poster when you get the digests and if
you are not REAL careful you nail the list.
(Specially if you are on a VT 100 !)

The message got sent and suddenly I realized "Ah HELL ! I screwed up !"

After the number of times Ive yelled at people for not getting their
headers right, MY number came up and THIS TIME *IM* the bad guy.


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 08:31:33 EST
From:    ***@MAIL.FIRN.EDU
Subject: Stereotypes

the other day on the list about no knowing what Spartanburg was about in no
way intended to start a discussion about these gymnasts personal lives.  In
many sports there are openly "gay" athletes and gymnastics to my knowledge
has none.  I would not have a problem if our sport did have these open
athletes.  I first questioned this because when I was younger, I did
gymnastics and was teased about being a "sissy" or whatever.  It infuriates
me that males in our sport have to put up with this crap!  I truly admire
any male that sticks it out.  If I had not lived in a small rural town, I
would not have been teased so much, and I would have pursued my gymnastics
further if I would have had a nearby facility and money.  I have received
private e-mail about legal actions for my comments.  I DID NOT ACCUSE
HAVE NOTHING ON ME.  I love this forum and look forward to reading it
everyday.  Let's hope that another controvery does not start over a
misunderstanding.  I will say that from now on I will not ask a question
about something so sensitive.


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 09:03:51 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: '97 FIG changes

In a message dated 96-05-22 17:40:22 EDT,Vanessa writes:

>Is anyone else shocked at the new code changes? The elite men start at an
>and the elite women start at a 9.0. And so many elements devalued. Double
>out on bars=d giant full bars =c and almost all fronts on floor knocked down
>also. Front full on vault 10 to a 9.6. Does anyone think this is not good
>the future of gymnastics? I wish they would reward the clean skills and
>artistry. But at this rate everyone will have to do quads on floor! I don't
>think it helps the injuries in the sport .  When will it end. They want the
>longevity of the gymnasts but how can this happen if only children that
>60lbs will be able to keep up.?

Perhaps I can help explain this from a judge's viewpoint. The purpose of the
FIG code is to discriminate between the best gymnasts in the world.
Invariably, gymnasts and coaches find ways to get high scores with less
difficult routines. A great example in mens is the wrong grip stoop endo
pirouette. This is an E-skill because of all the value raising involved, but
is a relatively simple skill. Consequently, just about anyone that was short
an E-skill for bonus purposes was using it, sometimes twice in their routines
artificially inflating their scores, or getting equal scores to gymnasts with
much more difficult elements. Front tumbling on FX is a similar phenomenon.

 When you devalue abused skills and increase the bonus component of the
gymnast's score, you force gymnasts to do more difficult routine to get the
top scores. The practical upshot is that only the best gymnasts in the world
will be getting upper nines.



Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 09:04:08 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Now everyone is an attorney...

I have been getting some pretty interesting E-mail as of late...  I guess now
that following "heated" threads, sharing opions, and being outspoken on some
issues is grounds for threats of being sued.

I'll just sit back and read YOUR fourm for a while... maybe that will make
you happy.

I appreciate the opportunity to be part of YOUR list.



Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 08:23:37 -0500
Subject: Re: '97 FIG changes

I understand the point behind devaluing some skills, but cmon, all of
them? I'm not saying that skills like a front full or a rudi or a giant
full on bars shouldn't be devalued. My point is, we've come nowhere
near hitting the 10.0 mark consistently. I think there have been two
awarded tens. THe highest women's scores at Sabae were Mo's 9.937
dt yurchenko, and I think Khorkina's bars at 9.912. Both routines most
like would have received tens four years earlier. The judges ARE managing
to keep the skill levels differentiated (IE, Milo's beam at World AA).
To lower the start score and devalue skills is just BEGGING for kids to
push the envelope. If you think we have injuries now, I hate to see what
we will have down the line. I'm sorry, but there is no way stress
fractures should be the norm.


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 07:06:43 -0700
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: '97 FIG changes

In a message dated 96-05-22 17:40:22 EDT,Vanessa writes:

> Is anyone else shocked at the new code changes? The elite men start at
> an 8.8 and the elite women start at a 9.0. And so many elements
> devalued.  Double layout on bars=d giant full bars =c and almost all
> fronts on floor knocked down also....
> Does anyone think this is not good for the future of gymnastics?

Well, devaluation is nothing new and I think it benefits the sport, as
it's now necessary to find other, different elements to perform.  I, for
one, am so tired of seeing Omelianchiks on B, layout front fulls on FX,
Phelps on V, etc.  These and other moves have become so common that an
optional competition is like watching compulsories, IMO.



Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 10:11:48 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Time for me to say Good Bye

I want to say thanks for putting up with my  "noise" and "rumors" for the
past few months... I have put my keyboard in my mouth one to many times and I
don't want to put the security of my family on the screen - so to speak.

I have enjoyed staying updated on the activities of the folks I grew up with
- and some of the discussions (where I could make constructive comments).

Have fun Powerbar guy..

Paul O'neil is the MAN!!!



Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 10:27:15 -0400
From:    ***@UNHF.UNH.EDU
Subject: Hate mail

Not long ago, a number of parents discussed (ON the list) the possibility of
creating a new list where Junior Olympic issues and the sport in general could
be discussed without "stepping on the toes" of those out there who have little
tolerance for people who don't know as much about the sport. Basically, we were
talked out of starting something new with the reasoning that this list was open
and understanding of those of us not quite "up to speed" with the nitty gritty
details of the sport.
However, now we have another situation where innocent questions about an issue
are prompting hate mail and threats of legal action against those asking the
questions. I, for one, do not want my daughter (and her teammates who tune into
this list from time to time) to spend time on a forum if it is going to be so
risky to ask questions. Those who ask the questions never know if they are
going to get slammed for it or not.
This list is a terrific source of information for gymnasts, coaches, and
parents. I would hate to see it chase away the young gymnasts and parents who
could learn so much from the more experienced gymnastics professionals.

Just my two cents,


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 10:26:04 -0500
Subject: Kim Z. on TV

Hello all -
Well, I don't know if this is an appropriate posting, but here goes. . .
While I was studying pretty late last night for my biology final, I turned
the tv on and really the only news on was NBC night side, and the ab-roller
(that's what happens when you watch TV at 3:30 in the morning), but anyway,
a brief blurb was on about the Olympic Torch relay in Houston, and all of a
sudden Kim Zmeskal was there running.  'Course she was only on for about 2
seconds, and she was running, instead of doing double layouts (guess that
would be hard with a fiery torch in your hand). . .Anyway, it was great to
actually see her on tv. . .maybe she was running over to Karolyi's to train
= )   Wouldn't that be cool if really her decision not to "come back" was
just one big marketing ploy, and secretly she's training for nationals?. . .
.(Just go with me on this = )



Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 12:51:05 -0500
From:    ***@CIC.NCHE.EDU
Subject: Shannon Miller

Wasn't Shannon Miller scheduled to carry the Olympic torch on route
to Atlanta?  Has she already done it?


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 10:08:26 PDT
From:    ***@TIBCO.COM
Subject: Re: '97 FIG changes

My point is, we've come nowhere
>near hitting the 10.0 mark consistently. I think there have been two
>awarded tens. THe highest women's scores at Sabae were Mo's 9.937
>dt yurchenko, and I think Khorkina's bars at 9.912. Both routines most
>like would have received tens four years earlier. The judges ARE managing
>to keep the skill levels differentiated (IE, Milo's beam at World AA).

Except that Liu Xuan was what, *9th* on bars in Puerto Rico with a
*9.7*?!?!?  The judges are reluctant to give out 9.9+, but they apparantly
have no problem boxing in 27 gymnasts in the 9.7-9.85 range.  The problem
now is that there are SO many good gymnasts, as opposed to before when maybe
only 5 or 6 could challenge for medals.  They need to separate the good
routines from the great routines, which they are not doing to the best of
their ability, and the code is an obstacle in doing this.

9.5 should be an incredible score.  9.5 out of 10 is 95%.  Imagine going
through your academic career with nothing less than 95%.  A 90% on a paper
or test is still pretty good, wouldn't you say?


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 12:20:41 -0500
Subject: This stinks and I've had it

The facts people

1) People are unsucbribing from the list because of this latest flame war.

2) People are being threatening to be sued for having opinions ( I can't
think of anything that was suit-worthy, myself)


Why can't we all just grow up? The whole Spartenburg issued rapidly
degraded into flaming, and it went public. We need to learn from our
mistakes. Those who don't are doomed to repeat them.


Date:    Wed, 22 May 1996 22:33:47 +0000
From:    ***@IGC.APC.ORG
Subject: USA-trivia-10s

Who won the first 10.0 in USA domestic elite competition
(both men's and women's)?  Obviously, it depends on
which competitions count--nationals or whatever.

I don't know about men's; for women's, I always think
of Kelly McCoy on vault, but could be wrong.  (Any
idea whatever happened to her, by the way?)

--Mary Lynne


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 20:37:12 PDT
From:    ***@AMDAHL.CO.ZA
Subject: Re: bars transitions

Another change to the 97 code, etc. is that there will be a deduction for
using the 'squat on' to get from low to high bar! :)


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 23:11:23 +0200
From:    ***@MICRONET.IT
Subject: Re: Where's Fabrishnova?

>I was wondering if anyone knew what has happened to Oksana Fabrishnova.  She
>is one of my favorite gymnasts and has missed most of the recent meets.  She
>wasn't at Puerto Rico, at European's and I did'nt see her name in the
>Russian Nationals results.  Is she injured?

She's going to partecipate to the Grand Prix of Rome next week.



Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 17:24:44 -0400
From:    ***@GOOFY.UMD.EDU
Subject: Re: '97 FIG changes

As I understand it, the new FIG code is not yet official, but is being
circulated for discussion and comment.  I'm sure that things will change
greatly between now and finalization.


Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 17:34:01 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Subscription suggestion

I'd like to see a (very) short msg, every week or so with subscription info.

Those of us on AOL and other services have mail that automatically "trashes"
itself, could really use a short msg that made referring friends to GYMN
easy.  When I'm at a meet and we talk with parents/coaches etc,  I always get
interest in GYMN if we talk about it. If there were a periodic msg that came
out like clockwork, we could just hit reply, type in the names of the people
we are referring to GYMN and let GYMN subscribe them or have a msg sent to
their attn.  Many, if not most of the people I meet are new to online and use
a service like AOL or Compuserve.  They are not adept at searching the net or
using FTP, even if they *knew* where to look. Maybe overkill, but just an



Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 14:52:38 -0700
From:    ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject: I'm Offended!

You wrote:
>And one more comment--Dominique does say "you know" a lot, but my take
on it is
>this:  As a 19-year-old who has 13 and 16-year-old siblings, EVERY
>uses that phrase way too much.  It's similar to "cool" or "like" being
>whenever they were thinking of what to say next.  Although it can be
>annoying, I'd rather look at it as evidence that a gymnast, even an
elite at
>Karolyi's, is still showing traits of being a NORMAL TEENAGER.

                    Sorry, but I am very offended by that comment. I
don't say "you know" a lot, if never and "cool" and "like" don't come
out of my mouth much and I am 14. I just wish that everyone could stop
making comments about "teenagers" and age. I know a lot of adults who
say "you know" a lot. Dominque just has a bad habbit, it has nothing to
do w/how old she is....



Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 18:50:18 +0000
From:    ***@CLOUD9.NET
Subject: New Gymnastics Book

While in Barnes & Noble today, I found a new hardcover book called
"Gymnastics."  Written by Dan Gutman and published by Viking,
it's 187 pages long and has many black and white and color photos (by
Nancy Raymond and Dave Black).  It's a quick read and is geared
mainly towards those with only a basic knowledge of the sport who
want to learn more about artistic gymnastics.  Sorry, RSG fans, but
rhythmic gets only 2 pages here...

There are the obligatory mini-biographies about Korbut and Comaneci,
along with a chapter called "Superstars of the 1990s," which has
profiles of many of today's top international gymnasts.  Happily, the
men receive almost as much attention as the women.  Other chapters
include a description of the events, how judging works, and (shades
of Joan Ryan here) the "deep trouble" in the gymnastics world.  I
found only one glaring error:  the author states that "music is used
with floor exercises for the first time" in 1974.  Uh, sure.

If you're a faithful reader of "IG" then you won't find much new
information here, but all in all it's an interesting, well-written
and well-researched book.  Using today's Code, I'd give "Gymnastics"
a 9.612. :-)



Date:    Thu, 23 May 1996 19:52:45 -0400
From:    ***@INETNOW.NET
Subject: Calm down everybody!!!!

I see there is a lot of hostility and hate on this forum. Why? Can't we have
decent conversions and debates on various, and sometimes controversial
topics? The subject of the TV commentators and Moceanu/Marinescu isn't even
controversial and some people are hollering about lawsuits and defamation of
character. Pleeeease!!!!!

Some of the people on this forum are some of the most defensive, hostile,
aggressive, paranoid and mean-spirited on the internet. Certain people on
this forum will raise hell over NOTHING. I have NEVER seen anything like
this over the cyberspace. First it was Oprah, now TV commentators.

I think some of you guys just need a coke and a smile. Writing to your
congressman over the Oprah Winfrey show won't help (I swear, some fool
actually posted a message suggesting this). I thought gymnastics was
supposed to be fun and lively. Some of the stuff I see here is what you
would find in chat rooms and race/sex/politics based newsgroups and BB's.
People on this forum are tipping around like they are in a minefield, afraid
to upset some of you hot-heads. This OUTRAGEOUS. Can't we have a whole
ranges of ideas? Is there only one opinion to be told, and if you say
otherwise you are flamed and atttacked. And the funny thing is, I am NOT
talking about the Spartanburg issue.

And don't tell me to leave. You need leave. I am all for lively debate,
interesting notes, even some silly posts. But all of this foaming at the
mouth like mad dogs is for the birds. You know who you are. I am now
offering stress-reduction software, FREE of charge to anyone who wants it.
Just send your requests to me privately. Maybe then, you won't have to write
you congressman over a TV show, or send people who express ideas you don't
like death threats. I will say again this is not really about the
Spartanburg issue. There has been this kind of hate and venom on this forum
well BEFORE the issue of USA gymnastics and Spartanburg.

If I see one more nasty post on this board soon, I will upload the Barney
song, and force everybody to listen to it. :)   {I love you, you love me, we
are one big happy family........................}


End of GYMN-L Digest - 23 May 1996 - Special issue