GYMN-L Digest - 17 Oct 1995 - Special issue
There are 13 messages totalling 545 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
2. Shannon and "The Book"
5. == No Subject ==
6. Fish jump
10. where are they now?
11. fish jump
12. WORLDS: Summary (long)
13. Hate mail and problems with article distribution
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:39:40 -0400
Last I heard Tatiana Lysenko was living with Gutsu in Indianapolis and is
being managed by the same guy ("Ranger Rick"). Friends who were at US Nationals
tell me that both Tatianas were there and Lysenko has become a very beautiful
young woman. I might be wrong about this, but I think IG might be doing a
profile on her in an upcoming issue. I saw her last at the Reese's Cup in
January or February, where she spoke virtually no English. I hear she's
practically fluent now! Don't know if she intends to go to college in the US,
as was rumored in the past.
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:50:02 -0400
Subject: Shannon and "The Book"
I tend to agree that it was probably Shannon's decision to compete in
Sabae more than Nunno's. He's been known in the past to pull her from
competitions when she might not win and therefore "look bad" (which I think is
silly, but remember when she finished last on beam at the Brisbane Worlds and
did not show for the award ceremony? I don't think this was her decision; I
think Steve didn't want her standing out there in 8th place. But who can really
know?) I also seem to remember that he's pulled her out of vault finals on
occasion since she didn't have a strong second vault at the time. But as for
Sabae, I believe she made the decision to do AA but pull out of vault and floor
in EF because of her ankle.
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 17:06:50 -0400
Shannon's Bar Mistake.
Shannon would only have been penalized for an extra swing, and not for a lost
connection bonus. Although Shannon had a number of bonus connections in her
routine, none was immediately prior to her extra swing. After catching her
Geinger, she performed a long hang kip, cast to handstand after (B element)
to a Giant 1/;2 turn (C). B+C doesn't receive bonus under any
circumstances on uneven bars. She was probably attempting to go into her
giant, full pirouette when she lost her momentum.
This is just a guess but the fish jump Grace Chiu referred to may have been
a sheep jump. It is an E element (#2.502 in the FIG Code) and is described
as a tuck jump with arch, feet at head height. Dominique Moceanu has one in
The Omelianchik is a D element (#7.401 in the FIG Code) and is described as a
backhandsping with 1/4 turn to arrive in side handstand. According to
Tatiana Perskaya Oksana Omelianchick's coach (who now coaches for Capital
Gymnastics in Virginia) the element was incorrectly translated when it was
submitted. As a result Omelianchick did indeed perform a backhandspring 3/4
but it went into the Code as a backhandspring 1/4. The Miller is a similar
element. It is a back handspring 1/4 to an immediate hop handstand 1/2 turn
with visable flight. It has been evaluated as an E element.
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 17:28:04 -0400
In response to Aaron's question, the USAG offers a lot of nice videos at
very reasonable prices. They have tapes of the US-UKR meet held this June
(including a training tape of the girls, which I just love). I don't know if
they're still available, but back in the days of the US-USSR meets, USGF sold
tapes of those competitions that were very thorough - pretty much every
routine. They also have tapes of American Cups (prelims and finals) and lots of
other meets. The FIG also sells video tapes, although most are in PAL. They do
offer some in the North American format, and I really like them. What they are
is basically the world feed TV coverage with NO commentary. :) Frank Endo and
John Whitmore (Sports Image) also sell tapes, mainly of Worlds (Endo) and
European competitions (Whitmore). I highly recommend the Sports Image tapes.
John brings 4 cameras to the meets he goes to, so he can get EVERY routine
during team finals and AA (for the women at least). I think the Canadian
Gymnastics Federation also sells some nice tapes (Dory?). Their tape of the
1976 Olympics is just beautiful - again, it's like TV coverage but with no
commentary and the correct floor music (that goes for all the tapes I
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 22:52:00 BST-1
Subject: == No Subject ==
Hi, I`m new. My name is Andrea and I`m a British gymnast. I can probably
answer any questions people have on the Brits (womens side). What a sad
state British gym is in at the moment (finishing only 18th in the
worlds). The team that went to Sabae was..
Michaela Knox : An American girl with dual nationality, top
scorer on compulsaries for the Brits, scored 35
Annika Reeder : had minor injuries, did all 4 bits on compulsaries,
Karin Szymco : her back injury has not gone yet but managed to compete
3 bits(not vault),
Zita Lusack : had a disaster on comp. bars scored v. low,
Gemma Cuff : another disaster on comp. bars.
Sonia Lawrence: ?
Gaby Fuchs : ?
I`m currently studying sports studies at college and I need some help on
my project! Its on whether flexibility programs should be done before or
after training. I need to find info. on this but I`ve searched the
libraries and found nought. Can any one can advise me where to get some
info or has any info? I`ll also need some gymnast volunteers to perform
a simple test for me which involves testing their flexibility, then
during six weeks do their flexibility training at either the beginning
or end of training (or workout as the Americans call it) and then
repeating the flexibility test. If you are interested please mail me
where ever you are in the world (I`ve still got the final details of the
test to work out).
Finally I`m going to South Africa next week for two competitions does any
one know who else will be there? (and what the weather is like!)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:58:10 -0500
Subject: Fish jump
Date sent: 17-OCT-1995 16:55:51
I think a fish jump is a pike jump with one leg bent, like so:
With the body straight above. it's the jump Amanda Borden does after
landing her front-on on beam, I think.
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 17:16:13 -0500
My name is Vladimir G. I am from Russia, but currently study in
Green Bay, Wisconsin USA.
I discovered gymnastics to myself in 1988, during the Olympic Games in
Seoul, Korea. I was fascinated by the grace of this sport. Since that
time I couldn't live without it. During Barcelona'92 days I didn't
miss a single program on TV where they showed competitions in this most
beautiful kind of sport. People called me crazy, but I didn't care.
Only a couple of years ago I've finally got a VCR. Since then I
started to gather my little collection of gymnastics events. Thousands
of times I wished I had a VCR at those days in 1992...
Searching Netscape I found Gymn Forum and Gymn-L group. That was
exactly what for a long time I was looking for. What a great places!
The information and pictures I get from there are priceless.
My biggest request is if anyone can give the information about where
I could find the videotapes of 1992 Olympic championship. Your help
will be greatly appreciated.
Looking forward for the summer of 1996,
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:08:45 EDT
In regards to Gina Gogean's teeth and hopefully to set the record
straight I'll put in my 2 cents.
When I spoke to her last year she had a fine set of teeth, just a
very shy grin. I think that so few people have the opportunity to
work with athletes of that calibre that the general public can't
fully understand the amount of focus and determination that they have,
especially in a competition setting.
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 18:41:15 -0500
When i placed a message containing my feeling that Svetlana Khorkina
should have won the world AA, i forgot that she left out the triple and
only did a double. i was surprised when she did that. You would think
that she could have substituted something better. Like maybe a 2.5 twist
punch-front...SMILE, I love her smile. I feel like a routine is a lot nicer
when done with smile. it is like a cherry on the top of a sundae. Svetlana,
no matter how well she does, always has a beautiful smile. It adds to the
elegance of the routine. I know people say a lot about her height when
she doesn't do well on something, but what is the excuse for the gymnasts
under 5' when they mess up. Every gymnast has their moment of "mess-ups".
It comes with the sport. i have seen Khorkina, like many others have seen,
go through all of her routines almost perfectly. it just wasn't her day I
guess. At the right moment, when she performs close to perfection, her
long, elegant lines and beautiful smile are going to be seen on the first
place block for the AA....?Atlanta? Of course i hope lil Dominique
Moceanu is standing to her left with a silver medal around her neck...Thanx
for your time.
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:54:06 -0700
Subject: where are they now?
In response to Stephanie's questions about some gymnasts,
Amy Scherr got a disease called Epstein-Barr and had to retire,
Sandy Woolsey was doing gymnastics at Utah the last I heard,
and Wendy Bruce was on the national team in 1994, but I don't know what
she's doing now.
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 17:21:39 -0700
Subject: fish jump
To answer Grace's question I think a fish jump is a pike jump with
one leg tucked, I don't think that this is the "official" name, but it's
probably the most common. I think it is worth a "C", but that is just a
very wild guess. It seems too easy to be worth a C-believe me, I've tried
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 20:39:49 -0400
Subject: WORLDS: Summary (long)
I just arrived back from Japan on the 14th and, having recuperated somewhat
from jet lag and gotten back to work, thought I'd stick my $0.02 in (for a
change <g>). Due to a technical problem, I did not receive Gymn mail from
10/9-13, so I hope I'm not duplicating any previous comments.
>P.S. Does anyone know who the Romanians 7th team member is, since she
didn't compete compulseries?
Nadia Hategan, who competed only optional UB, presumably to make her feel
part of the team effort, as she did appear on the medal stand. That girl
certainly has bad timing on her injuries (Dortmund, too!)
>Or if Lubov Sheremeta was on the Ukrainian team (where did she finish?)
No, she wasn't
Regarding the Aussie team, I enjoyed their form on UB and BB tremendously.
Joanna Hughes, obviously hurting, toughed it out well; Lisa Moro & Nicole
Kantek have talent but needs *lots* of work on form; Ruth Moniz seemed to
lack the confidence necessary to attack her routines, particularly in
compulsories; I was pleasantly surprised by the neat work of Kirsty-Leigh
>Actually Sherbo has been running around the USA selling his P-Bar blocks and
not doing a lot of training.
He really is an amazing natural talent. For very little training, he turned
in a quite strong performance. His compulsory vault in particular (with
encouragement from a Gymner who shall remain nameless <g>) was quite
>but watch out for the Koreans on Vault
With two solid landings, you would have seen a Korean gold. Unfortunately it
was a crash instead.
Ilene went out on a limb:
>My EF wishes are:
> 1. Donnie Thompson makes it to beam finals.
IMHO, Doni really should have made beam finals, but she was put up first in
both compulsories and optionals to set a good base score for them team
(unfortunately Theresa Kulikowski was unable to capitalize on it). Good team
strategy, but maybe it will pay off for Doni next year. Bela even seemed
quite impressed with her, and she may have won an ally in that corner if the
team winds up in another 'coaches pick the final team' situation for Atlanta
(which, of course, we will).
> 4. Some of the medals are won by relative unknowns.
Ludivine Furnon was put into FX finals at the very last minute (Shannon
Miller withdrew after limping off of beam - and probably realizing she
wouldn't get an FX medal with her watered down set), and came up with an
excellent set and bronze. On a side note, the French girls' choreographer
who provided them with some amazingly deep and stylish routines, is a former
Deva choreographer. Madame Pope (Popa? -- and before you ask, no, not
Eugenia or Celestina) apparently has indicated that the French team has given
her a full creativity to develop routines that she did not enjoy at Deva.
Debbie quoted from l'Equipe:
>Not all of Boginskaya's compatriots are happy about her return . . . "The
words of people don't interest me. I'm here
because Belarus needs me. Why should I refuse?"
The other Belarussian gymnasts were clearly unhappy at her presence,
particularly Olga Yurkina, as Yulia Yurkina was bumped to non-competing
alternate to make room for Bogie. IMHO, Bogie turned in a solid performance
for being away 3 years, but has added a bit too many wiggles to hide errors
or as substitutes for choreography. It was nice to see her, though.
>When do the US coaches decide which althletes compete which event and in
The coaches vote on the order, as well as who gets left off each apparatus.
Presumably one vote per coach, not one per athlete, as Kulikowski (whose
coach had 3 athletes on the team) was voted off optional beam and bars in
favor of Mary Beth Arnold (in fairness, Kulikowski performed *way* below her
potential in compulsories, and IMHO the coaches may have felt Mary Beth would
>Just a note to say that I know Adriana is correct for the team
placements earning individual bertsh to the Olympics. I don't know about the
"9 more" part but hey, it sounds good. ;)
The official release the FIG put out regarding individual qualifiers was
fairly vague regarding the last 9 qualifiers. It said:
-Teams 1-12 get full teams
-Teams 13-15 get 3 individuals each
-Teams 16-18 get 2 individuals each
-The final nine spots will be decided by the FIG based on criteria
*including* (but presumably not limited to) performance at Sabae. Gymnasts
fighting for these spots include both the individual competitors in Sabae, as
well as individuals from teams placing 19th and below.
-A final vague point indicated the IOC could add up to four gymnasts for
various reasons, including a particular region of the world being
Speaking with FIG officials, I basically got out of it that the two final
bullet points above regarding individuals are totally up to the discretion of
the agencies involved, as opposed to some performance/numerical qualification
>Yes, I too was rather shocked to see that the US men fell from
third to ninth,but after looking at the scores, they were close to 7th (less
than 0.2!!!). They could have finished in the next
highest group (2.0 pts ahead, 4-6th), but they may have had problems.
It wasn't a question of problems as much as start values. Among the six
teams in the final round, a hit routine was generally scoring from 9.5-9.7.
For the US Men, a hit routine was scoring around 9.25. Afterwards, both
John Roethlisberger and Peter Kormann admitted that the US Men's difficulty
level needed to be raised significantly for Atlanta.
>Does anyone know what happened to Jaycie Phelps?
Jaycie deserves a standing ovation! She was in a lot of pain during compos,
and performed like a trooper; nailing landings that obviously hurt and going
for every element. She looked in significantly more pain in optionals, but
still went for vault, as well as bars and beam. The look on her face when
she heard she had made bars finals was disbelief more than anything else.
Good for her!!!
Jennifer Lynn Eisenbart grumbled:
>Why is the Tsuk-half (half on, half off layout front) named
the Phelps? . . .didn't Shannon Miller introduce it at the 1994 worlds,
Actually it's named the Phelps-Miller in the Code. For simplicity, I would
assume, people have taken to calling it the Phelps. Miller did it (with a
fall?) in Brisbane EF and Phelps did it in Dortmund. Apparently the two
meets were treated as one for the purposes of naming skills. Any thoughts on
>Also, real quick, did Fontaine ever get the bars dismount named after her,
and is she still competing?
(1) Yes she did, and (2) I have no idea, but I thought she was training at
Hills . . .
>Can someone clarify just how much Shannon's break on bars cost her?
At least 0.3, then a deduction for the extra swing. Judges?
From Sherwin's EF report:
>Mens Pommels - I really know nothing about this apparatus! Li Donghua of
Switzerland the pommels specialist. Lots of work on one pommel. 9.762
I'm still hearing cowbells!!!!! ;-)
>Oksana Chusovitina who is always in the vault finals. A nearly stuck first
vault. Only 9.625 though. A very long and high and stuck second vault, maybe
not as high tariff? 9.600 is the score and the average is 9.612.
Apologies to the kids here (cover your eyes now), but I must say Oksana was
ROYALLY SCREWED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on vault EF. She should have been third, at
least. Add into it the fact that she was relaxing in the stands literally 2
minutes before she had to vault (bemused as to why her name was being flashed
on the scoreboard, then running with her coach to put on a leo), she gets a
bonus 0.1 for guts!!!
>Mihai Bagiu of USA does a free flowing pommel horse routine. He seems
satisfied with his performance. 9.650.
Mihai was disappointed and Peter Kormann was fuming.
>Now here's someone I'm very much looking forward to seeing.
Alexandra Marinescu of Romania. A Jaeger and a clean stuck
full-twisting double back dismount.
If she hadn't been placed second in the lineup on every event in team, she
could have been on the AA podium. Look for her in Atlanta.
>Svetlana Khorkina with her original style on the unevens.
Sveta's bars were in a class of their own all week.
>Is it considered a form error
on Mo's Gaylord when she bangs her knees on the regrasp?
They didn't take a deduction, but in my opinion they should.
>Oh I don't know about Amanar not being able to place ahead of the
PODmeister. She did it at this year's European Cup.
IMHO Amanar has great tumbling, but needs choreography (*any* choreography)
Feel free to ask me any questions you might have, although I may take a
couple of days to reply.
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:48:25 -0500
Subject: Hate mail and problems with article distribution
Date sent: 17-OCT-1995 19:37:23
People, the following is some of what appeared in my mailbox a few minutes
ago. I am going to quote only the pertinent lines, so as not to be accused
of being petty and nasty:
Rachele told you not to post your stupid article on here, because we
didn't want to hear about it, so what did you do, write post after post,
telling us how many people had wanted it, and fishing for compliments!
All you had to do was mention it once!
The reason I mentioned the article was that, sincerely, I was trying to
get things figured out with people who I know I had accidently deleted
requests from, or that the addresses I had received were copied wrong. I
also apologized for posting it on the list. I will again. I was trying to
make sure everyone who wanted a copy got one.
Get rid of the ******* long signitures! Didn't you even read Rachele's
post, that said anything more than 4 lines is stupid and not welcome on
I shrunk this signature by 10 lines earlier this week. It is still shorter
than many others here, and I have received no other complaints.
As for being a writer.......that is the biggest joke on this forum! You
can't write to save yourself, and yes I have read your **** on the eating
I am a journalism major. I have received many compliments on my writing.
Many from the people who I have both worked for and worked with. The
article that was sent out was a DIRECT copy from the school newspaper. It
had been published, and I received compliments from my editor in chief.
Obviosuly, I'm doing something right.
Get the point! Those of us with extensive knowledge of this sport hate
you, and getting messages from you in our mailboxes daily is driving us
all tworards unsubscibing (if it wasn't for Rachele's promise to us, that
she would do something about it, we'd have signed off long ago!) No,
you are not the only one, but you are the most frequent, and most
annoying person on this forum!
I have received a few comments from Rachele, but nothing as blunt as quit
posting or get off. As for being the most frequent, I AM SORRY! I love the
sport. If I weren't as tall as I was, I would have stuck with the sport.
As it is, I do what I can when I can. As of now, I don't know whether I
will shut up or keep talking. I don't know who it would serve best.
People, this is the hate mail I have been subject to for the past two
weeks. This is ridiculous flaming, but I would not have posted it here
except for the fact that I needed to address what I quoted. As I posted
back to the person who wrote this, I'm sorry if you don't like me. That's
your perrogative. But there are many other people who have sent their
support, including a few on this list whom I respect dearly. Thanks to
all of you.
End of GYMN-L Digest - 17 Oct 1995 - Special issue