GYMN-L Digest - 16 Jun 1996 - Special issue

There are 14 messages totalling 619 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. petitioning/politics (4)
  2. Floor Music Questions
  3. Gymnastics Coverage and automatic qualifying
  4. Olympic tickets available for gymnastics (2)
  5. Bart & Nadia at Macy's NYC
  6. Europeans
  7. Europeans and Canadian Nationals (long....)
  8. Another petitioning "loser"
  9. GYMN-L Digest - 10 Jun 1996
 10. GYMN-L Digest - 10 Jun 1996 - Special issue


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:53:35 -0400
Subject: Re: petitioning/politics

Beth writes (in part):
>     But being somewhat cynical, I think the reason the girls are getting
>special treatment and the guys aren't is that the girls are in contention for a
>team medal whereas the guys really aren't. So USAG will abide by all the rules
>of fair sportsmanship with the men's team, but with the women - well, the
>priority here seems to be to win a medal at all costs, even at the expense of
>keeping a girl (or girls...) off the team even if they legitimately qualify.

Maybe I'be missed this one, but I haven't seen this come up yet...

What about Bart Connor's petition in 1984?  I believe he was having
shoulder/upper arm surgery at the time.

Maybe the rules were different then.  Could someone with a better memory

P.S. Speaking of 1984, recall that Dianne Durham injured her ankle at the
Trials and didn't make the team.


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:51:52 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Floor Music Questions

Hello everyone!
I had some questions about floor music that I was hoping some of you on the
list could help me with.  First, how often do optional gymnasts (Level 8, 9
or 10) change their floor music?  Second, who chooses the music?  The
gymnast, the coach, or the gymnast and coach together?  If you can answer
these questions please E-mail me privately.
Thanks!   Janet


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:04:20 -0400
From:    ***@UMICH.EDU
Subject: Gymnastics Coverage and automatic qualifying

        I was wondering if someone who is going to trials and the games
will right a full report to me. Based on the coverage of the track and
field trials, gymnastics will not be that great on NBC.
          At least on ESPN2, they had  all four heats and semi-finals of most of the
 events and
even showed pole vaulting and the 10,000 heats ( Believe me this is a
 big improvement) along  with the men's and women's 100m.
        I guess it also depends on the sport, but a lot of people on the
track and field forum I am on the  hate profiles that NBC does.  Many people
feel that they could be showing sports.
        The only think interesting about NBC and track and field is the
automatic qualifying issue.  It was brought up by Micheal Johnson(200m
and 400m world champion) that maybe the IAAF would allow USA Track and
field to have automatic qualifiers. However a lot of USA world and Olympic
champions agreed that since the top three qualify, a person must be good
on that day to gain a spot.
        For example Carl Lewis has won 8 gold medals. However that should
not place him on the team in the 100m,200m and long jump automatically.
The same issue is know being discussed in swimming were only the
top two can go.
        In many sports many people are bumped off teams and coaches are not
reprimanded for incidents that would normally mean being banned for a couple of
years. People are also give three times to make a team so that a country
will have more entrants, even though the athlete did not meet the
standard at the trials. This is all done to insure a medal or a top
         The Olympics are all about politics and egos.
 The country with the best stars and the most gold medals is the champ.
Why do you think people are paid for winning a gold medal.  I have to
agree I can understand Chow, but not Pickens. 16 girls 7 spots. I think
the men should have the same opportunity.
        Oh well, I guess I will have to wait and see.


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:21:23 EDT
Subject: Olympic tickets available for gymnastics

This past week I checked the ACOG web page for Olympic ticket availability and
found tickets were available to the following events:

Men's team compulsories; women's team compulsories; men's team optionals;
women's team optionals;  men's all around, women's all around; and event finals!

Last year when I entered the big ticket lottery I couldn't even receive tickets
to all the compulsories as they were supposedly all sold out. But now tickets
are suddenly available!

That ticket lottery was such a load of horse manure! The ACOG was able to hold
my deposit money about six months and earn interest on it when I could have just
waited until now and gotten good tickets at the last minute.



Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:09:16 -0400
From:    ***@CLOUD9.NET
Subject: Bart & Nadia at Macy's NYC

>From today's NY Times, Bart and Nadia will be appearing at Macy's Herald
Square store on Tuesday, June 18, from 12:30 to 1:30 PM to promote
Swatch's Olympic watches and to "host a riveting gymnastics performance"
by gymnasts from Sutton Gymnastics.  Buy a watch, get an autograph. :-)



Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:39:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Europeans

My comments on euros.
I love Lilia.  I think that she was grossly underscored on her beam and
her vault.  She stuck that second vault amazingly.  In 92, her floor
routine could have gotten a ten.  She looks great, is full of spirit and
is just amazing.
I thought bogi was grossly overscored.  She definitely deserved second
place, but she shouldn't have been in first for three rotations.  I
thought it was wonderful how she clapped for lilia.  I thought it was
even better camera work to then show a sulky frowning lavinia.  I always
liked lavinia, but at this comp.  she just didn't do anything fore me.
I thought khorkina looked alittle stiff.  I hope she is OK for atlanta

Finally.  I can't stand ww of sports.  Why can't they commit to showing
one sport like nbc.  I thought there coverage was horrible, rushing from
one gymnast to another.
Just my opinion


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:51:21 -0400
Subject: Re: petitioning/politics

In addition to all of elizabeths valid points, I thought of something
else regarding mocesnu.  SHe will make the olympic team soly because
karoly is the head coach.  And he would never allow his baby to not make
the team.  So if he is nervous about her injuries then he will petition
her and she will make it, regardless of how wrong it is.


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:17:08 -0400
From:    ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: Europeans and Canadian Nationals (long....)

        Well I got to see both meets yesterday, so....
        I thought Bogi looked great and I didn't think she was overscored
at all.  I was surprised to see no giant 1 1/2 to bail to handstand on low
like she was doing before, and did anyone else notice that she did her
giant fulls with four grip changes instead of two like she used to do?  I
guess that allowed her to get more speed into her Tkatchev but it looked
to me like it caused her to be well past 10 degrees of handstand (no D
credit) when she finished the pirouette; it's hard to tell from TV
though...Her FX was great; with that tumbling and improved UB work in
Barcelona, things could have been different....
        Pod was good, but I still don't care for her dance on FX too much.
It seemed to cutesy for someone her age (but I don't want to start a big
debate over this please....)  I didn't think she was underscored on V
(just my opinion though).  I mean that was one of the highest scores on
the event.  Her UB, well this wasn't one of her best routines and like
Kathy said, the judges didn't overlook her grabbing the beam on her piked
Chen (is this named after her?)
        I wish Milo would learn a new vault (and that the judges would
devalue the Phelps when it is piked so much like that!)  What is a piked
Phelps worth in the code?  Tucked it's 9.9, which leaves nothing in the
middle for a piked one....
        I love Khorki's bar routine, but the Shaposhnikova to mixed grip
pirouette isn't a new element for her; she opened her routine with this
move at 1993 Jr Europeans (please no one e-mail me asking me for a copy of
this meet!)
        I wish the had shown Dina (she was fifth, no?)  Atlanta should be
very close.  Ukraine could surprise people and challenge for a spot in
team finals.  They may soon overtake Russia as the top former USSR team.
        Now for Canadian Nationals/Olympic trials.  They showed both
optionals and compulsories for the women (in that order, as that's how it
went at the meet) which decided the Olympic team.   Yvonne Tousek looked
great, although she was only fourth in optionals after missing her
Hindorff (it's almost as high as DomD's).  Her floor is just amazing
(arabian double, triple twist, front-full punch layout-half stag jump,
front full punch front) with that amazing choreography that unfortunately
most of you haven't seen.  Only in Canada would Jennifer Exaltacion
outscore Yvonne on FX (double pike, 2 1/2 to flypsring, front-full,
front-full PF, but good dance too).  Lena Degteva held the lead after
optionals (great piked Jaeger, Tkatchev, barani-out dismount), but she had
so many problems in compulsories it was really rather sad.  Her feet
slipped off early on the toe-on before the UB dismount and she did just a
front tuck and rolled out of it.  Her BB was also shaky, so she was like
.15 out of third going into FX, but couldn't make it up.
        Shanyn MacEachern isn't my favourite gymnast, so I won't say too
much here....Great acrobatics, including a piked full-in on floor (her
dance is good too), but her compulsories aren't the greatest (but her FX
was not bad actually).  I wouldn't expect her to make AA finals in Atlanta
(Yvonne should if she hits) but you never know.....
        My personal favourite, Marleen Lavoie, was only shown on vault,
where her Hristakieva was unerscored relative to the others.  They didn't
how her 1a BB routine, where she outscored the field, although the
commentator did make mention that Marleen and Jennifer Exaltacion were the
two Canadians who had mastered that routine.
        Marilou Cousineau, who's been to 5 worlds, had a rough time, which
is a shame because when she is on she is one of the best we have.  Too
many errors dropped her to fifth, barely ahead of Marleen Lavoie.
        In the men's meet, no Olympic berths were at stake, as Alan Nolet,
Kris Burley and Richard Ikeda had pre qualified; I think that sucked, as
Rob Doyle was awesome in this meet (he was second behind Ikeda, optionals
only) and IMHO he should be going to Atlanta.  Kris Burley could do very
well in Atlanta, and he is worthy of a trip to EF on FX and vault (he does
the same two vaults as Nemov, and on FX tosses a full-in full-out mount
and a full-in dismount, and is capable of a double twisting front).  He
was fourth on compulsory floor in Sabae, so who knows?
        Alan Nolet no longer does a Kovacs or a Def on HB (he did two hop
fulls to one arm flanked Tkatchev), which isn't really a surprise
considering the few times he actually caught the Kovacs and Def when he
threw them in the same routine....
        Who knows how our men will do in Atlanta.  Kris definitely belongs
in AA finals, and Alan and Richard could if they hit, but they can't
afford any errors.  Things seem to be going right in the men's program
here.  We have more depth than usual, and had there still only been one
USSR team, our men would have made top 12 in Sabae.  The women have a lot
to do  though.  I think we got too comfortable with our position and took
it for granted that we would make top 12 in Sabae.  Hopefully our routines
will be more competitive this next cycle.


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:23:57 -0400
From:    ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: Another petitioning "loser"

        I just wanted to point out another gymnast who lost a shot at
worlds due to a petitioning that no one seems to mention.  Kara Fry from
Parkettes earned the 7th spot for the Dortmund team at trials, but lost
her spot when Shannon Miller decided to go to Worlds after all.  It was
really a shame for Kara, since Shannon's performances had absolutely
nothing to o with the final team outcome.  She only did compulsories, and
the US only needed to make top 6 to advance to team finals, and they
showed there that they had the talent to medal even without Shannon
competing.  Having Kara there would have allowed for more variety in the
lineup under 7-6-5.  Steve Nunno even said that it was their intention for
Shannon to only do compulsories, and if that was the case, she should have
stayed home and Kara should have competed.  Has Kara Fry herself ever said
anything on this matter?

P.S.  I assume that my information is correct here; in IG it said Miller
was ranked second at trials based on her score from USA's but that she
would not go to worlds, according to Nunno.  A few different commentators
also said that she might not go.


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:28:04 -0400
From:    ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: Re: petitioning/politics

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, ALISA wrote:

> In addition to all of elizabeths valid points, I thought of something
> else regarding mocesnu.  SHe will make the olympic team soly because
> karoly is the head coach.  And he would never allow his baby to not make
> the team.  So if he is nervous about her injuries then he will petition
> her and she will make it, regardless of how wrong it is.
> Alisa
        I don't believe that the head coach for the women's team has been
selected yet.  Won't that be determined after the trials and the team is


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:22:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Olympic tickets available for gymnastics

Dana writes (in part):
>This past week I checked the ACOG web page for Olympic ticket availability and
>found tickets were available to the following events:
>Men's team compulsories; women's team compulsories; men's team optionals;
>women's team optionals;  men's all around, women's all around; and event
>Last year when I entered the big ticket lottery I couldn't even receive tickets
>to all the compulsories as they were supposedly all sold out. But now tickets
>are suddenly available!
>That ticket lottery was such a load of horse manure!

Maybe, maybe not.  The reason tickets have "suddenly" appeared was because
these seats were originally "reserved" as camera positions for TV coverage.
(If I remember correctly, NBC is NOT the Host Broadcaster for the Games;
so expect LOTS of cameras from a variety of organizations in Atlanta.)
You'll notice that such tickets became available AFTER test events were
held.  One of the reasons for such events is not only to make sure
equipment works (and to give competitors a "taste" of the venue), but also
for the media to scope out the site for "optimal" positions.  Once the TV
folks have decided where they want to set up shop, it only makes sense to
release those areas of the arena it no longer needs to the fans.

Helena, risking animosity from in-laws by being late for niece's
graduation Tuesday in order to see the Torch at Company HQ


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:34:32 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: petitioning/politics

<< I, too, am annoyed at this "sudden" possibility of being able to petition
 directly onto the Olympic team when USAG repeatedly assured everyone it
 never happen again. Seems to me that they're basically trying to hand-pick
 team without really admitting it. I can understand their "motivation" in a
 the Olympics are in the US and they want to field the best team possible,
 quite frankly, a team that's most likely to medal. But it's still completely
 unfair. What has me a bit mystified, though, is that they're willing to bend
 all the rules for the girls but NOT for the men. >>

Well, first of all, as I stated before, the petitioning process *is* part of
the rules (you can read the original posting in the digests (november?)/ If
people misunderstood the process (either in the gymnastics community or in
the media) is that really the fault of USAG?  When people have been saying
the selection process will be different than 1992, I have been assuming they
meant that at the end of trials we would have a *team* selected, instead of
1992's training squad.  So I dont really see how anyone can say that Amanda
Borden or Kim Kelly earned a spot on the team at 92 Trials when that wasnt
really up for grabs at that meet. (whether that was right or wrong is a
different question)

But the one thing I dont understand from various recent posts is people's
concept of fair.  IMO, the seven best all around gymnasts in the U.S. should
be our Olympic Team.  If our best gymnast has an injury and cant compete at
trials, but will be healthy at the time of games, shouldn't she be on the
team?  What is more fair about a gymnast who was seventh at trials getting to
go? She was only seventh because the hypothetical first gymnast was out of
the trials, otherwise she would have been eighth!

Does anyone know for a fact that Miller and Moceanu have filed petitions, or
is it still a rumour at this stage?


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:17:24 -0700
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 10 Jun 1996

Automatic digest processor writes:


> > The coverage was pretty good although Tim Daggett made some interesting
>  useless
> > comments. In talking about Mihai Bagiu's pommel horse routine he said, "when
> > he's bad, he is also bad."
> I saw Tim on his way out of the arena, before post production on the coverage
>  started,
> and I asked him to be kind-- my family is watching.  And I think he actually
>  restrained
> himself.

Anyone here ever made a total dork outta themselves trying to leave voicemail ?
I think that happens to people on camera.  I do some broadcast work besides
my computer racket.  Some take to it naturally and some screw up and others
over ham it up.

Past Stanford gymnast Jason Cohen, being a journalism major, was announcer at a
meet a while back.  This dude does a nasty wipeout on h-bar.
Up until this point Jason stuck to numbers anouncements.
Finally he blurted "Now that HAD to HURT!"

> > I'm a little baffled as to why Tim keeps saying that pommels is Mihai's best
> > event. Unfortunately, almost every time I have seen Mihai compete on
>  he
> > falls off. Has he won Nationals on this event?

When I saw gymnastics on TV as a kid I never saw anyone fall of PH.
So I start going to college meets, and like EVERYONE falls off.
Im thinking "what kinda bozos we GOT here"
Finally I realize EVERYONE falls off, the media just edit it out.
I was amazed at how FEW fell of at Mens NCAA this year.

> Mihai won the '94 competition on PH, and was a finalist at '95 Worlds.  He and
> Roethlisberger were the only US finalists.  Mihai has competed in a lot more
>  events than
> you've seen, since it is actually a rarity for him to fall.
> (Interesting note:  There were a lot of complaints on the placement of the
>  pommels

You dont carry a 12" torpedo level in your gym bag ?
(About 7$ US at the local ACE hardware)

> (slanted) and that the rings were hung unevenly, however these problems were
>  fixed.

The team should carry a 4ft and 6 ft contractors level in the team crate
as well as a few adjustable wrenches and a set of screwdrivers etc.

If the level says the rings are wrong, you will have irrefutable proof
that the judges will HAVE to deal with.  Again make DARN sure about
you concern, because if its a false alarm, you may risk having edgy judges
who will nit-pick worse than usual due to irritation.

Course if you bring up ring level before the meet starts it will be far easier.
You really want to get everything kosher BEFORE the meet, holding up a meet
30 mins is bad form and might boomerang on you.

You will need to notch some 2x4s to get the level into the rings.
Whatever you do DONT DROP the LEVEL !
The mats will keep it from getting bent but the bubble vials may not survive
and heaven help the poor schlep under a 4ft level when it falls 5 feet onto
their head !

Use the 6ft to sanity check the h-bar.

While you are at it, "ping" the guy wires.  Make sure those suckers are tight
enough to "sing".  After watching a friend fall due to botched setup,
the fear of cthulu has been put into me in the safety dept.

>  There were reports of a board cracking in the floor during a routine...but it
>  wasn't
> checked out until the competition was over, before the girls competed.)

Usually there is a floor manager at an event who is USGF safety certified.
You better be sure about your certainty about the floor, then go after the
floor manager and remind them that their safety certification ius at stake.

On the other hand, if you break a floor board on a rebound floor,
its gonna take at LEAST 2 hrs to go out, get a new panel and install it.
Most floors go together like a puzzle hence sometimes ALL panels have to come
out to replace one.  (eechhh!)
Thats IF there is a stash of spare floor panels in a closet, if you have
to go out to the lumber yard then its worse.

Tough call, do you delay the meet 4 hrs or what ?
Other possibility:
Load a condom with chalk powder, nick the tip with a pencil point
and use it like a giant marker to mark the bad spot and give the gymnasts
a chance to rework routines to avoid the bad spot.
After the floor gets fixed the chalk will come out with a good vacum.

But why wasnt the floor properly inspected BEFORE the meet ?


> ------------------------------
> Subject: More WAG:National Championships


> coreography (sp) reminded me a lot of Kim Z.

Try choreography

> Bela -- I think that he needs to come up with a different style for his
> gymnsats. The cute little butt shaking really annoys me. I also felt he should
> have re-assured Dominque instead of criticizing her after her bars exercise.

Why do you think womens gymn sells in the US and not men ?
Not too many college guys willing to "butt wiggle" on national TV.


> Jayci -- She is really great. I didn't like the fluff about her family though,
> call me what ever you like, but do these gymnasts really want their lives
> shared with the public? What do you think Kris?

Again this is what sells.  Remember that those of us on this list will be
anoyed by this crap because we tend to be brighter than the average TV viewer.
Average person is pretty stupid, and stupid seldom figure out how to get on the
net.  Stupid think "up close and personal" is CUTE !

> Friendliness -- I hope the U.S. Team will become better friends. I find it
> saddening that no one seems to even like each other. Well, the womens team
> anyway. The men seem to like one another.

Sexist as it will sound (not intentional) girls fight dirty.
And mens gymnastics has men in it, womens gymnastics is still pretty much
little girls.


> ------------------------------

> Subject: Mens Nationals
>         This is my first time posting to the forum and unfortunately it is
> not to praise US mens gymnastics.  We are so far behind the other top
> Nations in the world it is sad.  For someone like John Mcready to place

Worse than sad.  Its (*&^%$#@ DISGUSTING !

> third is a sad.  He would not be even the alternate on any other respectable
> team i.e. China, Belarus, or Russia.

Whats sad is that you seem surprised.  Kris, you are preaching to the choir.
We are in deep trouble and its getting worse.  Mens gymn is not seen as
"butch" enough so team membership is dropping.  NCAA wants to nuke us
because we are down to 30 odd college teams left.  Title-9 has backfired.
Sure the girls are getting more teams, but instead of trimming bloated
football and basketball budgets, they are killing off mens gymnastics

>         I know the networks think that Rothlisberger is a great gymnast, and
> the best in the US, when in reality he is neither.  Well I take that back,

I was disapointed in him every time Ive seen him.
But he is well touted on this list.  His dad is a real trip, I met him once.

> by US standards he is great.  But by international standards he is less that
> average.  How can the networks hype him as being the best when he can't win
> any single event and at most major championships he finishes behind another
> US competitor.
> I know this all sounds harsh and unpatriotic, but it is reality.  In Atlanta
> look for Rothlisberger to do nothing.  Mihi (sp) Bagiu will qualify for
> pomel horse finals, and J. Lynch will place on Parallel Bars.  Our top AA

Jair is fading fast.  Im glad to see him doing well with his other career.
I havent seen him in over a year and a half withiout an injury that would
have me screaming.  He got some coaching from someone outside Stanford
for a while and that jerk did damage to Jair.

> finisher will be Blaine Wilson but he wont be in the top 15.

Blaine did OK at NCAA but I felt there were better than him.

>         The US program for mens gymnastics lacks the ability to produce an
> AA gold medalist.  The only time the US mens team has done well is when the
> Olympics were Boycotted.  The US needs to scap the current JO and senior
> programs which make it easier for gymnasts to get higher scores ( i.e.
> developmental D's in JO) and get rid of the politics and judge straight FIG
> code gymnastics and let the best gymnast win.  None of this protesting and
> getting back .4 of a point.

Well put Kris, but add one more thing.
Gag if you will, but we need a Bela for the guys.

I can see it now, they guys are waiting in the USOGTC in Colorado waiting
for their new coach.  The hear thundering footsteps down the hall, aproaching.
A cloaked figure apears in the doorway with an 8 ft stall walking stick
with a glass fireball on the top.  A ring on the hand bears a
skull and crossbones.

A deep voice "On your feet, men.  Welcome to the University of Rigor Mortis.
This time we are going to win....."


Date:    Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:43:30 -0700
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 10 Jun 1996 - Special issue

Automatic digest processor writes:
> >Does Shannon have just one record of gypsy violin music?
> >It seems that every new routine is another 90-second cut.  But,
> >silly me, I still love it--she has great music and her own style.

Do the kids really choose their own music ?
I always got feeling the coach/chorog set it all up.


> Yes!  The first time I saw Alicia Ingraham I thought "OH NO!  They're going
> to take away Shannon's uniqueness."  I was very pleased to see Jennie
> Thompson's hair in a ponytail and *without* the little "skrunchy puffy
> hair thing" (sorry, but I don't know what they're called!)

They are called "hair scrunchers"
You got a problem with them ?  I wear them quite a bit, much better than
rubber bands.  (Rubber bands destroy long hair)

Bteer that they wear those than anything else.
I usually wear my navy blue one to work of the Stewart plaid or
Black Watch Plaid




End of GYMN-L Digest - 16 Jun 1996 - Special issue