GYMN-L Digest - 12 Jul 1996 - Special issue
There
are 21 messages totalling 607 lines in this
issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. Silly posts about US not medaling at
Atlanta.
2. 1996 Olympics,
Team comp
3. Reaching too
far??? Article in B'ham News
4. questions
5. Home Country Judging
6. GYMN-L Digest - 11 Jul 1996 - Special
issue
7. Scoring and Dom
8. Posters
9. scAM
cup rules
10. Posters (fwd) (2)
11. IOC wildcards (2)
12. post olympic exhibition question
13. Posters at REVCO
14. Predictions and Favorites
15. No Subject
16. Moceanu
17. Last chance for tickets
18. NEWBIE
19. Overscoring.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 07:36:49
-0400
From: ***@GRFN.ORG
Subject:
Re: Silly posts about US not medaling at Atlanta.
OK, before I get
accused of being rabidly pro-US, I'm going to
add
the two comments that Jeff did not post.
1) Yes, I expect the US to
medal in Atlanta, but I also expect the
Russians to as
well. I suspect either china will blow a compulsory
event or that Romania will have a problem or two.
2)
I like the Russians just fine.
How I expect things to go in Atlanta?
It will be a four-team
race (Romania, USA, China
and Russia) and I really think the teams
could
finish in that order.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 07:46:00
-0400
From: ***@GRFN.ORG
Subject:
Re: 1996 Olympics, Team comp
Look, I think there is a lot to like
about the Russian team.
Really.
But they do have problems of their own,
and the US has its
strengths.
Since Chris and
Jeff have pointed out the Russian strengths,
why
not point out the Americans?
1) The US has one of the strongest
compulsory teams in the
world. Their compulsory
floor sets have been consistently
well-ranked with
the rest of the world, and from what I saw
in
Boston, the rest of the exercises will stack up fine.
2) The US was
not only without several athletes in Sabae, but
the ones who were there were not at full strength. Miller
and
Phelps competed injured (there is a good .5 added back right
there, from beam and floor mistakes, not to mention vault),
and
Chow, Borden and, most importantly Dawes, were not even on the
team. In addition, the subs made many mistakes (I've seen
some
of the floor routines at worlds, Arnold made
errors and I
think Kulikowski
did too, and then there were serious problems
in
compulsories with some of the inexperienced athletes).
3) The US is
consistent, for the most part. With the exception
of
theRomanians, I don't think there is a team which
will hit
as often as they do with these
routines.
The US team will be strong for Atlanta, probably the
strongest
team in years. The right seven girls are
heading for the Games.
I think there are a few
things the girls should be focusing on
in
preparation (most notably LANDINGS on DISMOUNTS) but with
the exception of little stuff directed at an individual,
that is
it. To predict they would not medal,
Atlanta, or no Atlanta, I
disagree with.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 07:49:53
-0400
From: ***@GRFN.ORG
Subject:
Re: Reaching too far??? Article in B'ham News
*sighs* Is there a single member of the media who is not
hoping
on the "Little Girls"
bandwagon?
This article is ridiculous (and had better well have been a
column,
because if it was a story, it was preetty darned well opinionated).
WE ARE NOT THE ONLY
SPORT WITH ATHLETES COMPETING INJURED!!!! (and
Moceanu isn't even the only gymnast; Mary Beth Arnold
completed
trials with most likely the same
injury!) Track, Diving, Figure
Skating...all
these sports commonly have athletes who have problems.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:14:43
-0400
From: ***@SWOSU.EDU
Subject:
questions
Hi Everybody,
My family is going to be attending
the 9:00 am gymnastic competition on Sun
7/21 and Monday
7/22.
Does anyone know if there is a schedule as to which teams will
be competing
when. We are really anxious as to who we will be watching.
Thanks
Marci
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:32:52
-0400
From: ***@YORKU.CA
Subject:
Re: Home Country Judging
> >However, you must also remember that
the Olympics is in the US so there is
> >an
automatic 0.1 deduction for every athlete not American, plus another
>
>tenth if the routine is good.. These are called the American Cup or scAM
> >cup rules, first
used in a major int'l competition at the 1991 Indianapolis
>
>Worlds.
>
> 1991 Worlds?
I thought it was first used at the 1984 Olympics. How I
> shudder
at all those tens with clear form deductions, eg Retton's AA floor
> routine. Shoddy, but quickly covered up landing
faults on at least two
> passes. You can even see the faults in real
time, not slow motion.
>
> Simone
Even
worse than Retton's 10 in the AA finals was her 9.9
in 1b,
with a clear stumble and touch down after
her full-in (and as this was
before new life, this
overscore made a *huge* difference in the final
AA
standings).
Chris
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:59:06
-0700
From: ***@FLASH.NET
Subject:
Re: GYMN-L Digest - 11 Jul 1996 - Special issue
i wanted to thank everyone for pointing me to the nbc web site, the last
time i had looked there, they hadn't mentioned individual
gymnasts.
i noticed they
mentioned IOC wild cards, has these wild card been named.
and,
in the heart of what's
called miller country,
the mcdonalds
posters are of amanda bordan
(no i can't get one, groan,
their
being given to childrens hosptitals.)
these posters are put on the
pole
the arch is on, outside.
also, and i hate mentioning it,
my local
pbs channel produced a shannon
miller special, i'll review it in
my next posting
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:08:15
EDT
From: ***@COMPUSERVE.COM
Subject:
Scoring and Dom
"However, you must also remember that the
Olympics is in the US so there is
an automatic 0.1
deduction for every athlete not American, plus another
tenth
if the routine is good.. These are
called American Cup or scAM
cup
rules, first used in a major competition at the 1991 Indianapolis
Worlds.
I
am worried that the US athletes are going to be grossly overscored,
too.
Remember the last time the Summer games were
in the US? Does
the 1984
Olympics ring a bell with anyone? I think those scAM
cup rules were in
effect way before the 1991 World
Championships, although they were rather
boldly
used in 1991.
I have a few questions about the Monceanu
situation... Is she planning
on
retiring after the Olympics if she gets to
compete? Both she and Bela
seem to allude to this
"the dream is over if her leg doesn't heal" but
she is only 14!
Would it be THAT difficult for her to compete for 4
more years?
Isn't Bela the one who has said many times
that he is
against the age restrictions in this
sport, but that they don't bother
him too much
because most girls don't peak until they are 17 or 18
anyway? Dominique will only be 18 in 4
years. Hardly over the hill...
I
don't really like her gymnastics, but I think she does have a lot of
talent and potential.
I would just hate to see her never reach her
full
potential in this sport. I am also
concerned about her health
at this point. I just have this fear that she will try
to compete
at full force at the Olympics and do
permanent damage to her leg because
it was not
fully healed. A stress fracture is
a rather serious injury.
I just hope that Bela
and company are smart enough to realize she can't
compete if she will risk further or permanent injury. This situation
really
bothers me (and I have a feeling Joan Ryan is already writing a
chapter for her next book).
At what point can the
US add Theresa Kulikoswki to the
"official"
line up. I have a fear that Dominique will be
pushed into competing,
get injured badly early in
the competition and then the US will only
have 6
gymnasts. Does anyone else see this
happening?
And speaking on injuries... I haven't seen this mentioned
here yet,
but there was a story on the newswires
yesterday stating that Ivan
Ivankov of Belarus
was injured during training and will not be
competing
in the Olympics now. This is sad as
I think he had a good
shot at some medals.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:10:00
EDT
From: ***@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject:
Posters
I, too, thought that the posters were of Borden until I got
really close
up and realized that it is Shannon
Miller. Look at the hair and
the
slimmer body type, Amanda's legs are much more
muscular, IMO. :) Joy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:22:24
+0100
From: "***@ASUCLA.UCLA.EDU
Subject:
scAM cup rules
An Olympic Games
in the mid-80s without the Soviets, East Germans,
Bulgarians and Czechs is not a major int'l competiton.
Its a USA-ROM
duel meet, with a 1/2 teaspoon of China.
Oh and some Romi Kessler on the side.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:03:02
EDT
From: ***@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
Subject:
Posters (fwd)
Joy said:
>I, too,
thought that the posters were of Borden until I got really close
>up and realized that it is Shannon Miller. Look at the hair and the
>slimmer body type, Amanda's legs are much more muscular,
IMO.
Speaking of Amanda Borden, it was written in the local Athens'
paper
today that she has announced that she will
be turning pro. Borden will
join several of her Olympic teammates on a professional tour
after the
1996 Olympics. The
article said that it wasn't known if fellow Olympians
Kerri Strug (scheduled to compete for UCLA) or Amy Chow
(scheduled to
compete for Stanford) will follow
Borden's footsteps.
Suzanne Yoculan said "Even though we're disappointed she will not
be
competing for the University of Georgia, we are
in complete support of
her decision."
There
was also a quote from Bela Karolyi
(from the Olympic Trials)
who believes
professional gymnasts can easily support themselves. He
said
"The professional opportunities is one of the main reasons gymnasts
should stay in the sport. The older gymnasts can showcase the
sport
and sell it. There are more and more opportunities
available every year.
It's one of the most important things happening in
gymnastics."
I personally have mixed feelings about Borden
deciding to go pro. On
one hand, I certainly think she should take advantage of her
future
gymnastic opportunities (both
personal/financial). But I was
also
looking forward to watching her perform next
year for the GymDogs
and
the experience she would have added to the team. I really enjoy
collegiate
gymnastics and have felt that over the last l0 years
Olympic gymnasts have
added to the overall increased quality/popularity
of
the collegiate gymnastic programs throughout the United States. I'm
afraid
that with the increased professional opportunities associated with
gymnastics that fewer and fewer Olympic gymnasts will be
eligible for
collegiate gymnastics. Financially I certainly can understand
why gymnasts
would take advantage of professional
opportunities but as Karin Lichey
(current UGA gymnasts) said about Amanda Borden not attending
UGA, "It's
disappointing, she would have been
a part of something wonderful."
Beth-
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:43:03
+0000
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject:
IOC wildcards
Someone asked about IOC wildcards. There are ten, which were distributed
as
follows:
RSG Group - China
RSG
Individuals - Australia, Egypt
Artistic Men Individuals - Barbados,
Ireland, Iceland, People's Republic of
Korea (North Korea), Puerto
Rico
Artistic Women Individuals - Belgium, Morocco
I am
working on the web pages for Olympic rotation schedules (podium
training, compulsories, AA and EF draws) today. Hopefully they will be
posted on USA Gymnastics Online by tonight.
Rachele
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:33:46
-0500
From: ***@MERLE.ACNS.NWU.EDU
Subject:
post olympic exhibition
question
Hey all,
Here's a quick question. For those of you who went to the Trials,
do you
remember receiving a pamphlet thingy on the
post olympic tour? It had a
couple
of phone numbers to call in order to reserve tickets and what not.
It think it's being sponsored by John Hancock. If anyone has the number I
can call to order tickets, I would appreciate it. I think I lost it on the
plane on the way home.
Thanks in advance.
Sue
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 13:34:14
-0400
From: ***@NORFOLK.INFI.NET
Subject:
Posters at REVCO
FYI fellow Gymners...................
In
last Sunday's local newspaper, there was a REVCO circular for items on
sale and rebate offers.
In it was a promotion for Kodak film--buy two rolls
of any Kodak film and recieve a
free olympic poster. The one that was shown
in the circular has Dawes, Moceanu
and Miller on it. Even though
I
currently don't need any film, I went last night
and bought two rolls that I
didn't really need so
I could get the poster for my daughter.
I live in Virginia but suspect
this could be a national promotion.
Connie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 13:37:08
EDT
From: ***@COMPUSERVE.COM
Subject:
Predictions and Favorites
I have been reading everyone's predictions
regarding the upcoming
Olympics with great interest. I think this is a hard one to
predict
as there are several men and women who
have the "goods" to get on the
medal
podium. This one will come down to
who is going to be ready
mentally, even more so
than usual. In this regard, I think
the
"veterans" will have a little bit of
an upper edge.
On the men's side, I think the team medals will go to
1.China
2.Japan and 3.Russia I think the team medals for the
ladies
will go to 1. Romania 2. China 3. United
States
The all around and the event finals are really hard to predict
as
there are so many who could medal. I think the top 10 ladies will
be (in no particular order): Mo Huilan,
Podkapayeva, Khorkina,
Milosovici, Miller, Dawes, Amanar,
Kochetkova, Boginskaya and Piskun.
There are about 15 more who could be in the top
10 if they make all
around finals and if they hit
their routines. And, Monceanu and
Gogean should be
in there, too, if they are able to compete.
The event finals are
available to about anyone since the "new life"
rule
is in place (I hate that rule). I
just hope the girl who wins
bars does NOT stand on
the low bar at any point in her routine.
It
would be nice, too, if the vault medal
went to someone who is a
little original (like Podkapayeva or Khorkina) and if
the person
who wins floor does not do 3 of those
"cheater" front tumbling passes.
One I can handle, but when they
do 2 and 3, I hate it!
My favorite gymnast of all time is Natalia Yurchenko. I
LOVED her
innovation. Yes, I know we are all sick of those
vaults now, but
when she first did it, it was
amazing. And, she had a great
floor
routine, plus original moves on beam and she
did a Tkatchev to
an
immediate Delchev on bars ( and this was with the
bars clost
together)!!! My other all time favorites include Olga
Mostepanova,
Oleysia Dudnik, Daniela Silivas, Svetlana
Grosdova, Svetlana
Boginskaya,
Henrietta Onodi, Tatiana Groshkeva
and Khorkina.
My favorites currently
competing are Khorkina, Boginskaya,
Dawes,
Kochetkova, Piskun
and Chusovitina.
I am really looking forward
to the Olympics because I think it is
going to be
a real fight for the medals. I just
hope everyone does
their best and the scoring is
fair. I don't want to see
anyone
getting a medal ala
Dagmar Kersten in 1988 (huge hope on dismount
from the bars and received a 10????) She was great on bars, but on
that day, she didn't deserve the high score.
Does
anyone know when the US line up (who will compete each event)
will be announced?
It should be interesting...
Wouldn't it be nice
if the US women's team
showed up at Atlanta with new floor routines?
Jill
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:02:13
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
Re: No Subject
<< However, you must also remember that the
Olympics is in the US so there is
>an automatic
0.1 deduction for every athlete not American, plus another
>tenth if the
routine is good.. These are called
the American Cup or scAM
>cup rules,
first used in a major int'l competition at the 1991 Indianapolis
>Worlds.
1991 Worlds? I thought it was first used at the 1984
Olympics. How I
shudder at all
those tens with clear form deductions, eg Retton's AA floor
routine. Shoddy, but quickly covered up landing
faults on at least two
passes. You can
even see the faults in real time, not slow motion.
>>
Oh. come on, you guys! Almost *every* routine that has been
given a 10, hasnt
been
perfect, not just those given to Americans. Nadia's '76 UB compulsory
had a huge hop on the landing, and there were overscorings in 84 AA finals,
too. Look at Szabo's
beam landing. She should have been
deducted a tenth on
every apparatus for her eyeshadow alone!
Look at the 1989 Worlds -- so
many,many
10's, most of them overscores. As long as we have a scoring system
that doesnt multiply score times
difficulty (like diving), a 10.0 doesnt been
the routine was perfect, it means it was better than the
girl we just gave a
9.95 to.
Aside from the American Cup, (which
doesn't really have the best
international
competitors, anyway), the country most consistently overscored
in competitions major and minor, in every country, is
Romania. Examples:
Bontas' wobbly beam compulsory in 92 Olympics outscoring
the world,
Milovici's '93 beam victory, countless
vaulting and beam medals in Worlds &
Europeans (talk about form errors
ignored! Piked Hristakievas,
leg
separations,etc.),
Milo's 9.95 with an OUT OF BOUNDS at Dortmund,and 90%
of
Gina Gogean's career.
And
I'm not saying this out of hatred for the Romanians; I think they are
great athletes for the most part, and they obviously have a
consistent team.
Nor am I
saying it out of patriotism -- the USA is not my favorite team,
either; but neither are they the only ones overscored.
Its the same
in every competition -- the team or athlete with a bigger name
or better position in the line up will always score
better. I think the USA
will have a slight advantage in Atlanta because they'll have
a huge cheering
session and every athlete will
want to do her best competing in her own
country,
but thats it.
Individual athletes -- Miller, Pod, Milo, etc,
will
benefit from their names and
reputations.
My Humble Opinion(s)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:44:42
-0400
From: ***@UMICH.EDU
Subject:
Re: Posters (fwd)
oh
wow....i can't believe amanda
chose to go pro, especially after
waiting a year
to go to Georgia. And if i remember correctly, her main
concern
was getting a college scholarship.
I am sorry to see that she
has changed her
mind. i too was looking
forward to the UM vs UGA meet.
Amanda would have
been a great addition to collegiate gymn.
>
Joy said:
>
> >I, too, thought that the posters were of Borden
until I got really close
> >up and realized
that it is Shannon Miller. Look at
the hair and the
> >slimmer body type,
Amanda's legs are much more muscular, IMO.
>
> Speaking of Amanda
Borden, it was written in the local Athens' paper
> today
that she has announced that she will be turning pro. Borden will
> join
several of her Olympic teammates on a professional tour after the
> 1996
Olympics. The article said that it
wasn't known if fellow Olympians
> Kerri Strug
(scheduled to compete for UCLA) or Amy Chow (scheduled to
> compete for Stanford) will follow Borden's footsteps.
>
>
Suzanne Yoculan said
"Even though we're disappointed she will not be
> competing for the University of Georgia, we are in complete
support of
> her decision."
>
>
There was also a quote from Bela Karolyi
(from the Olympic Trials)
> who believes
professional gymnasts can easily support themselves. He
> said
"The professional opportunities is one of the main reasons gymnasts
>
should stay in the sport. The older gymnasts can showcase the
sport
> and sell it. There are more and more opportunities
available every year.
> It's one of the most important things happening
in gymnastics."
>
> I personally have mixed feelings about
Borden deciding to go pro. On
>
one hand, I certainly think she should take advantage
of her future
> gymnastic opportunities (both
personal/financial). But I was
also
> looking forward to watching her perform
next year for the GymDogs
> and
the experience she would have added to the team. I really enjoy
> collegiate gymnastics and have felt that over the last l0
years
> Olympic gymnasts have added to the overall increased
quality/popularity
> of the collegiate gymnastic
programs throughout the United States.
I'm
> afraid that with the increased
professional opportunities associated with
> gymnastics
that fewer and fewer Olympic gymnasts will be eligible for
> collegiate gymnastics.
Financially I certainly can understand why gymnasts
> would take advantage of professional opportunities but as
Karin Lichey
> (current
UGA gymnasts) said about Amanda Borden not attending UGA, "It's
> disappointing, she would have been a part of something
wonderful."
>
>
> Beth-
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:10:47
-0500
From: ***@MAGIC1.ORG
Subject:
Moceanu
I understand what is being said
about Moceanu and the risks she is =
taking...but that is her decision to make. We forget how mature elite =
gymnasts tend to be, not ever teenager can have the drive
and =
determination to not stay up until 2 in the
morning eating pizza and =
giggling about
boys. I am sure she knows the risks
and if she feels =
they are worth it, so be
it. We may not agree with her
choice, but we =
also haven't been a member of an
Olympic team either.
Amy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:04:51
-0700
From: ***@TELIS.ORG
Subject:
Last chance for tickets
I still have tickets available for the Men's
Team Optionals (Gymnastics) on
July
22 @ 9:15am and 12:30pm. I
have 2 tickets for each session ($80/each
ticket).
Remember,
we don't know what rotation the US men will be in until after the
compulsory round.
Let me know if you are interested via private email.
Thanks!!
Michelle
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 13:46:28
-0700
From: ***@GOODNET.COM
Subject:
NEWBIE
Welp, I just subscribed to this list, and was informed that
I need
to let everyone know a little about
me. My name is
Damon Smyers, I'm 20
years old, and a gymnast at A.S.U. I've been coaching here
in Arizona for
about 4 years now. I'm also a nationally certified
judge.
I've
kept this short and sweet, but any questions are welcome! I
am
looking forward to some good discussions on this list.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 23:57:49
+0200
From: ***@MICRONET.IT
Subject:
Re: IOC wildcards
Rachele wrote:
>Someone
asked about IOC wildcards. ...
>Artistic
Men Individuals - Barbados, Ireland, Iceland, People's Republic of
>Korea
(North Korea), Puerto Rico
Does it mean that Gil Su Pae will be in Atlanta?
========
Carlo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:20:40
-0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject:
Overscoring.
Yes, it has happened alot with alot of gymnasts. I
find that in every com
competition
you see gymnasts who get overscored. I think that the
crux of
the arguement is
what happens when the venue changes. You notice that Bogi
was always overscored regardless
of where she competed, but the big
thing about the
Scam/Karolyi Cup is that as soon as the US athletes
compete
against the same athletes they competed
against on HOME TURF the scores
are back to
normal. An excellent example was the 1987 Karolyi's
Cup and
what happened to Phillips in Stutgart. Things changed alot.
BTW:
I still think Bogi is the most overscored
gymnast in history. Look at
her 1992
routines.
Jeff
Dina, Dina, Dina.
------------------------------
End
of GYMN-L Digest - 12 Jul 1996 - Special issue
**************************************************