GYMN-L Digest - 8 Dec 1995 to 9 Dec 1995

There are 17 messages totalling 461 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. A few things...(IG/a quote)
2. USA Gymnastics
3. New subscriber/IG magazine
4. <No subject given> (2)
5. FX
6. Dominique Moceanu
7. Julissa Gomez, again
8. GYMN-L Digest - 8 Dec 1995
9. VAULT QUESTIONS
10. competitions
11. vault questions (#1) (2)
12. Joan Ryan
13. GYMN-L Digest - 2 Dec 1995 to 3 Dec 1995
14. Elite Canada Day 1
15. J Gomez

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:56:12 -0500
From: ***@GATEWAY.US.SIDWELL.EDU
Subject: A few things...(IG/a quote)

Re IG:
I guess I don't notice lack of international coverage that much, since
I'm from the US. I thought the Worlds issue was pretty good, and they
*certainly* give more coverage to international gymnastics than _USA
Gymnastics_. Of course, _USAG_ has more of an excuse (the name *is* USA
Gymnastics, after all) but I remember their coverage of 1992 Paris Worlds was
a one-page photo montage. I mean, Kim Zmeskal (*USA*) walked away from that
meet with two world titles and all they could give it was one page. And
I really liked the poster of Mo Huilan, I think one of the neat things
about it is the camera angle (it's incredible that you can *see her face*
from behind when she's doing a sheep jump *on beam*!)

If people are interested in more international results, I'd suggest
subscribing to _Gym Stars_ or _World of Gymnastics_. Both are full-color
(and _WOG_ is on really glossy pages) and both are published in Europe, so of
course they don't focus so much on the US. And Lilia fans, _Gym Stars_ put a
poster of her in the Worlds issue (they also had one-page posters of Svetlana
Boguinskaya, Dominique Moceanu, and some men, and the Lilia poster had
two-page pictures of Mo and Vitaly Scherbo on the back). You can get
subscription cards for _Gym Stars_, as well as some other magazines, from
Gymn's FTP/gopher site or off the Web page
(http://rainbow.rmii.com/~rachele/gymnhome.html), and if you want to
subscribe to _WOG_ email me privately and I'll give you subscription info.
So don't post on Gymn asking "How do I subscribe to..." :)

One more thing:
Somebody asked me if I know the source for this quote
"In my homeland there is no such thing as freedom of the press. In the
United States there is no such thing as freedom from the press."
He thinks it's from Nadia Comaneci, but he's not sure. Does anyone know?

Lisa

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:31:59 -0500
From: ***@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: USA Gymnastics

I was a little offending by the lady who said USA Gymnastics is for
children....I subscribed to both IG and USA Gymn, because I love
gymnastics. It gives me a chance to see more pictures and to receive
more information. I know their are a couple of sections in USA Gymn that
may be geared toward "children", but I don't feel that the whole magazine
is. It might be for a "younger" audience, but I think it is mainly for
people who olnly want news about the US girls. I am 18 years old, and I
am a new subscriber to both. I enjoy both magazines for their
"different" set ups, although quite a few have seemed VERY similar. The
writing in the stories is just like that of IG. If USA Gymn was for
"children". then don't you think they would use simpler terms and
language? Anyway, I don't want to sound like a "grump", I can respect
other people's opinions just fine....I just wanted to let you all know
how I felt about that particular comment (and I'm sure their are others
out there who agree). Thanx 4 your time...
Aaron

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:10:14 EST
From: ***@COMPUSERVE.COM
Subject: New subscriber/IG magazine

I am Joe, a parent at Cypress Academy. I have two children who are
elite gymnasts. Melinda (12) at Cypress, and Clay (18) Freshman (scholarship)
at the University of Minnesota. We (my wife, Diana, and I) have been involved
in gymnastics for about 16 years. We have five children, the oldest daughter is
Stacy (22) hunter/jumper (english) horsewoman (local champion). Our middle
child is Scott (15) swimmer (local champion), trumpet player, high-school
freshman football player and renowned (locally) deerslayer. Our youngest (but
not quite smallest) is Rebecca (Becky)(8), swimmer and budding actress
(currently enrolled in acting school). We have to keep moving to stay up with
all of them. Since Melinda's gym is 50 miles from our home, I drive her
everyday (an hours trip one way through Houston traffic) and stay for her six to
seven hour workout (also home school her). I sit and soak up information and do
whatever I can to help the coaches with their paperwork, etc. and cheer our
elites and tens on.

I would like to comment on the current topic concerning IG magazine. If you
have a copy available, turn to the editorial page and glance down the statement
of editors, publishers, etc (all neatly enclosed in a page length box) and
you'll find that Paul Ziert is the Publisher and Bart Conner is the Associate
Publisher. To me this translates Owner/Co-owner. Looking near the bottom,
there is an invitation for anyone to submit articles for publication (so whoever
has something to write about their favorite gymnast(s), American of otherwise,
has an open invitation to input to the content of the magazine). Also, you
might observe that in November, the address changed from Oceanside, CA to
Norman, OK (where both men live and work)--draw your own conclusions.

I will be happy to answer any questions about the level 10 and elite Cypress
gymnasts. We have six Jr/Sr Int. team members, plus two alternates, and five J.
O. National team members. The other ten who are not National team members, are
pushing the outer envelope. An awesome group of intense and talented young
ladies.

JOE

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 15:25:36 -0600
From: ***@MINN.NET
Subject: <No subject given>

I was watching the Atlanta Invatational last weekend on TV, when
they mentioned that Doni Thompson had retired. Does anyone know why Doni
would retire at such a young age?


Wants to know,

Julie
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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:28:00 PST
From: ***@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject: FX

I saw a double side somi by a woman once. It was like 1988 Moscow News
or something like that. It was a big girl. She did a double side for
her first pass and a double layout for her second...

The CHinese men tumbled out of side somis in 1985.

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:44:00 PST
From: ***@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Dominique Moceanu

How did she make FX final in Sabae? Was it her exquisite dance or
her state-of-the-art tumbling?



-PJ

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:36:03 -0500
From: ***@JUSTICE.USDOJ.GOV
Subject: Julissa Gomez, again

Actually, she didn't die from the lack of oxygen -- she was
brain-damaged by it and lived for several more years. Life
expectancy is not great once you're paralyzed from the neck down
-- susceptability to infections and all that; so the fact that
she wasn't killed outright by the accident that broke her neck at
C2 & C3 doesn't mean it didn't kill her. It was particularly
striking that another gymnast from her gym broke her neck (but
fortunately did not damage her spinal cord) on the same skill;
and that Kathy Johnson was quoted as saying that Julissa, and
many other Americans, were scary to watch when doing this vault
because they were not in sufficient control of the roundoff and
in danger of missing the board -- which is exactly what happened.

In light of all that, how do coaches train Yurchenkos now to
avoid injury? Are roundoff-entry vaults inherently significantly
more dangerous, and if so why not get rid of them (it does make
things more interesting to watch to see some variety, and it's
easier on the less powerful gymnasts (which conceivably
contributes to seeing so many tiny ones -- it used to be the one
place they were at a disadvantage!) -- but is it worth it?) Do
people who saw her vault agree with the (many) people quoted in
the book that her technique was dangerous? Was it much worse
than others'? How did the gymnastics community respond at the
time (this was a period when I wasn't paying much attention)? Do
the mats help enough? And finally, has a Yurchenko-type vault
ever been a compulsory vault, and if so, does that put undue
pressure on gymnasts who do have dangerous technique problems to
take the chance anyway? And -- really finally -- if they _are_
in fact easier, because more power is generated, why aren't they
given less value (I know there's been some devaluation, but
still).

Whatever the flaws in Ryan's book, why not discuss some of the
issues in it rather than simply whether we appreciated her
treatment of them?

--Ann.

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:57:01 -0500
From: ***@FREENET.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 8 Dec 1995

Does anyone have any information on upcoming Canadian or American
television programs being brodcast?

(On gymnastics, or meets, of course)

Also, does anyone have any info or future television appearance
information about these gymnasts?

Tanya Maiers
Gail Kachura
Vanessa Atler
Mina Kim
Jaime Hill (Can)
Marlene Lavoie (Can)
Yvonne Tousek (Can)
Mo Huilan
Amy Chow
Andreea Cacovean (Rom)
Nadia Hategan (Rom)
Alexandra Marinescu (Rom)
(Finished 2nd in subway challenge) (Rom)
Dominique Moceanu

Any other 'new faces' on the scene.

Thanks.

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:16:53 -0600
From: ***@MINN.NET
Subject: <No subject given>

I was watching the Atlanta Invatational when they mentioned
that Doni Thompson had retired. Does anyone know why Doni retired at such a
young age(14)?


Wants to know,

Julie

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 23:20:16 GMT
From: ***@CLOUD9.NET
Subject: Re: VAULT QUESTIONS

>> 7)Who is credited with performing the first tsukahara vault?

>Mrs. Tsukahara? ;^) I don't know, but the first I ever saw it done was in
>'76 and by then all sorts of women were doing it. Nelli Kim would be my
>guess.

Inge Hanke (GDR) did a tucked Tsukahara at the 1971 GDR Natls. See "Flick
Flack" for sequence photos... According to the same book, Turischeva was
the first woman to perform this vault at an international meet -- at the '74
Worlds.

Debbie

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:35:07 -0500
From: ***@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: competitions

Are there any upcoming competitions that some of the US girls who were
injured during the World's will be competing in? (Dawes, Borden, Chow).
I would like to know about any competitions that may not be on the gymn
calendar.....thnx in advance!
Aaron

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:04:40 -0500
From: ***@JUSTICE.USDOJ.GOV
Subject: vault questions (#1)

Jeff asked whether anyone had done a front somi off the
board to the horse; it would surprise me, as it would really have
to be a one-and-a-half in order for your hands to hit the horse.
Hard to see how you would have forward momentum going after that.
Perhaps you meant something else?

Of course, I never was a very good vaulter, so perhaps I
underestimate what can be done!

--Ann.

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:58:10 -0500
From: ***@JUSTICE.USDOJ.GOV
Subject: Joan Ryan

For those of you haven't read the book, incidentally, Joan Ryan
does not oppose gymnastics, but rather certain coaching styles.
Her model guy is a coach (I forgot the name) who said to her that
he would feel more successful if he brought 6 gymnasts to the
point where they got college scholarships than to have just one
make the Olympic team. Not who you want to train with, perhaps,
if you want to make the Olympic team, but hardly a bad attitude!
He also fired a coach who, he thought, produced too many injuries
in his gymnasts. Ryan's beef is basically with Karolyi & Nunno,
and I think a lot of us have qualms about them (certainly I think
people ought to hear these stories if they are thinking of
sending their kids to either coach, and then talk about the coach
with former students and their parents for a reality check);
and it would have
been nice if she'd devoted a little more space to good coaches,
but that really wasn't what her book was _about_. There _are_
different issues when you're dealing with very young athletes:
the heavy training affects their development (with the long-term
osteoporosis (sp?) presenting perhaps the most serious problem);
and we want to be sure that the choices they make are choices
that they will not be unhappy with down the road (to the extent
we can ever do that, of course). And there's also something
different about gymnastics: if not done with proper training and
supervision, we all know it can be dangerous; and the risk of
spinal cord injury is much higher than in most other sports,
because in most other sports your feet are underneath you. You
can tear your knee or break your arm or dislocate a shoulder
doing many sports; but breaking your neck -- not being able to
move anything below your neck, not even being able to turn your
head or breathe on your own -- is, I think, the last thing most
of us would ever want to have happen to them. And though it's
not likely, it's more likely to happen in a gym than on a soccer
field (though not, of course, more likely than from diving into a
shallow body of water, or getting in a car or motorcycle
accident).

Which reminds me of a question C.J. Patterson asked me, that I
didn't know the answer to: what, if any standards, are set for
coaches, and by whom? (He noted that in the UK, you must have (a
license or classification or something) in order to teach certain
skills).

Okay, I'll try and shut up about the book now.

--Ann.

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 22:31:55 -0500
From: ***@SOL.EECS.USMA.EDU
Subject: Re: vault questions (#1)

I saw someone at JO nationals about 4 years ago do a front onto the =
horse.=20
Basicaly he did a tucked double front over the horse and just lightly =
brushed the horse with his hands to get credit. He had so much forward =
momentum that he had to roll out of the landing in the meet. =20

/\/\ike


>Jeff asked whether anyone had done a front somi off the
>board to the horse; it would surprise me, as it would really have
>to be a one-and-a-half in order for your hands to hit the horse.
>Hard to see how you would have forward momentum going after that.
>Perhaps you meant something else?

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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:01:59 -0800
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 2 Dec 1995 to 3 Dec 1995

I know dowel grips are the ONLY reaon I can stay on a bar.

The dowel grip came out in the mid 60's, starting as a training tool.
Someonme used on in a competition and ist use spread throught the NCAA.
Mexico City was the first Olympics to allow the dowel.
Originally the just stuck it between the hand and the leather of the grip.
Later in they sewed it into a pouch in the grip.
Later on yet, the girls started uing them.
Iron curtain complained that dowels were cheating but they lost the fight to
have the dowel banned.

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Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 02:40:44 EST
From: ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: Elite Canada Day 1

To: gymn-l@psuvm.psu.edu
Subject: Elite Canada Results - Day 1

Here's the results of todays competition from Seneca College, Toronto.


Junior HP
Name V UB BB FX Total

Claudine Pinard - Richelieu 9.2 9.3 9.3 8.85 36.65
Sarah Running - Bluewater 9.2 9.4 8.35 9.4 36.35
Shannon Johnson - Mississauga 9.15 9.0 8.55 8.95 35.65
Lise Leveille - Flicka 8.55 9.0 9.3 8.65 35.50
Julie Beaulieu - Gymnix 8.4 9.0 8.8 9.2 35.40
Alison Rudisi - Mississauga 8.9 8.15 9.0 9.0 35.05
Crystal Gilmore - Cambridge 8.65 8.55 8.85 9.0 35.05
Emillie Fournier - Gymnix 8.55 9.0 8.35 9.125 35.025
Sherzel Weekes - Sport Seneca 8.6 8.55 8.7 9.1 34.95
Desiree Day - Flicka 8.85 8.55 8.55 8.85 34.80

Senior HP

Shanyn MacEachern - Mississauga 9.637 9.6 9.3 9.4 37.937
Veronique Leclerc - Richelieu 9.325 9.65 8.55 9.25 36.775
Marilou Cousineau - Gymnix 9.0 9.6 9.35 8.8 36.75
Jennifer Exaltacion - Winstonettes 8.75 9.4 9.0 9.4 36.55
Natalie Barrington - Mississauga 8.9 9.4 9.3 8.95 36.55
Annie Leclerc - Richelieu 9.187 9.55 9.075 8.65 36.462
Kim Allen - Omega G.C. 9.262 9.15 8.65 9.1 36.162
Chrissy Dumanski - Mt. Royal 9.35 8.5 8.9 9.05 35.80
Lisa Campagnola - Mississauga 9.25 8.65 8.75 9.15 35.80
Kristina Hirose - Panthers (Winnipeg?) 9.225 8.45 9.10 8.95 35.725

Sorry I'm only posting the top ten but it's pretty late and I'm going
on 4 hours of sleep in the last 40 or so.
Goodnight everybody!
-=-al-=-

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Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 02:54:03 -0600
From: ***@EDEN.COM
Subject: J Gomez

About Julissa--there were a lot of events that precipitated her death. Yes,
she was injured in a gymnastics related event, namely vault. If I remember
correctly, the US coaches were NOT allowed to place a set of folding mats
between the board and the vault. Julissa missed the board and subsequently
broke her neck. There were complications in Japan due to the lack of a
translator. Later, Julissa was transported back to the US, but her
condition changed during the transport. I think it is still being debated
about the vibration of the place/transport, etc., but suffice it to say that
Julissa went into a coma. Later, the decision was made (after MANY months)
to stop life support (little/no brain activity).

I will have to ask my old coach about more information, but she was one of
the people who testified at Julissa's inquest (?) and has more specific
information.

I have not read the book so I do not know anything beyond the general debate
considering the negative depiction of gymnastics. For the record, I would
like to emphasize that while Julissa WAS injured while competing for the
national team in the sport of gymnastics, her subsequent death was a result
of many other factors. She was a beautiful gymnast on the verge of breaking
into the senior elites. We miss her.

Rich

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 8 Dec 1995 to 9 Dec 1995
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