GYMN-L Digest - 5 Jul 1996
to 6 Jul 1996
There are 20 messages totalling 571 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Bill Foster and reality
2. The Olympic Trials @ Bostons Fleet Center
3. Olympic Trials
4. Criticism of Dominique M. (2)
6. US Anchors (2)
7. ERIC LAMP
8. Chow and Moceanu
9. Gymnasts not finishing routines
10. The gymnastics mag. over e-mail
11. Question and favor
12. Sports Illustrated
13. Dom. M's floor start value
14. Trivial Notes from Trials
15. Criticism of Dominique M. (and a word on anchors)
16. Kim Kelly Article (Last One)
17. Commentators Compared
18. international members of gymn
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 10:22:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Bill Foster and reality
> On July 5, Bill writes:
> I will try to reiterate the point. The mechanics of what goes on between a
> coach and an athlete are very complex. Every athlete has a different reaction
> to the stress of competition; most just want to be left alone to sort out
> their own feelings after they have had a big miss. They are ready to listen
> to you later. If you intrude upon that need, then YOU ARE DOING WHAT MAKES
> YOU FEEL GOOD, not what is best for the gymnast. Its very hard, as a coach,
> to come to the realization that there is NOTHING that you can do for the
> gymnast at the competition.
I completely agree that, as a coach, it is very disappointing to watch your
athlete not perform at their best. And in many cases, the best thing to do
is to allow the athlete their space to sort things out on their own.
However, I don't think that applies in this case. If he believed that the
best thing for his athletes was to give them their space instead of comforting
them immediately, then wouldn't Lori Forster follow the same coaching
philosophy? Instead, she was there comforting them. Bill mentioned in his
post "what is best for the gymnast." In this particular case, I don't think
what was done was the best thing for the gymnasts. I can't see how a coach
putting his head down out of disappointment can be helpful to an athlete's
state of mind.
Has anyone seen how the Forsters have reacted to disappointment in the past?
>From what I've heard so far about the Forsters and their positive style of
coaching, it seems that Tom's reaction was out of character and not what he
would normally do. I think if he knew beforehand the image it would project
and this ensuing discussion, he would not have reacted the same way. Right
or wrong, it is only one small incident in his long coaching career. It is
unfortunate that it was caught by the NBC cameras. It has to be difficult
trying to coach your gymnast, keeping your own emotions in check, keeping
track of scores - all while a cameraman is sticking a camera in your face.
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:28:38 -0400
Subject: Re: The Olympic Trials @ Bostons Fleet Center
See I know that we are supossed to respect everyones opinions, but to
call the gymnasts on the olympic team failures? Yeah right. Amanda in
not the most inconsisitent gymnasts around. If you don't like her, say
so. But don't call her or anyone else on that team a failure.
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:47:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Olympic Trials
Ken A is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT in his post concerning John Sullivan's hack
on the men at the Olympic Trials.
I couldn't say it better myself, and I usually have a lot to say about this
kind of garbage.
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:45:29 -0500
Subject: Criticism of Dominique M.
I am going to have to agree with Melissa on this one. I have noticed
a lot of negativism towards Dominique Moceanu coming from certain
members of the forum. I really don't understand why. I believe some
people are actually jealous of her success. Look at her
1. 1994 Junior National Champion
2. 1995 Senior National Champion
3. Silver medalist at 1995 world championships (balance beam)
4. Bronze medalist (AA) 1996 National Championships (while injured)
These are just a FEW of her accomplishments, mind you. Is your
animosity towards her due to the intense media attention and press
she gets? Is this her fault? I understand why she gets the media
attention she does. She is a good gymnast. She has a sparking
personality, and is cute. Why would the media ignore her?
Also, I have noticed a lot of negative posts on this forum, ALL THE
TIME. First you criticize TV commentators (who I see no problem with),
then it's gymnasts routines, then Dominique Moceanu, before that is
was TV coverage of gymnastics, next it was Tom Foster. It seems that
some people are never happy, or more appropriately, have a lot to
criticize. Personally, I am pretty happy with just about everything
that has happened lately with gymnastics (except for the unfortunate
injuries to Shannon and Dom).
I also notice a lot of criticism of one another on this forum, too.
If I see a post I don't agree with, I don't attack the person who
wrote publicly. I just ignore it. I am all for open-mindedness and
free exchange of ideas. I am against censorship in any form. But,
guys and gals, come on. The olympics are just 14 days away. Podium
training begins on July 15, just 10 days away. Is this all we have on
our minds is cutting someone else down? I have actually seen posts
from people who have wanted Dominique Moceanu to fail in her quest at
the olympics. She is an American, isn't she? Part of the team?
Why does everybody just have a Coke and a smile and leave it at that.
And ENJOY THE OLYMPICS!!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:53:28 -0400
Please stop sending me these damn automatic digest things.
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:34:34 CDT
Subject: Re: Criticism of Dominique M.
In regards to Vincent Shavers post:
I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's move on.
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:52:32 CDT
Subject: US Anchors
I think that Dawes will anchor the US team on bars and floor and maybe
vault, and Shannon will anchor on beam. If Dawes doesn't on vault, I
think it will be Shannon.
What do YA'LL think?
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:57:00 EDT
Eric, Please send me your e-mail address so I can send you the Kim Kelly
Article (finally...). I have the wrong address so it wouldn't send...
Sorry for bugging everyone else!
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:04:00 EDT
Subject: Chow and Moceanu
First, John, we know you love Amy Chow, and no one is going to argue
with the fact that she is a wonderful gymnast. However, when you say
that Kerri has awful leg form on beam, I find that ironic since Amy's
form is certainly as bad as Kerri's. No one on the list thinks Amy is a
bad gymnast, the thing we discussed a while back is that how much her
presentation would be improved if her form were a little better.
Second, Melissa said in reference to Dom Moc "Why would we try to ruin
our own athletes?" I echo that question and I think that Dom would be
more "ruined" if she attempts to compete in Atlanta. We all know Dom
has credentials from '95, but she isn't the same gymnast at this point
in time. I've said it before--why put her entire career on the line for
this one competition, where she won't be anywhere near her best?
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:23:28 -0400
Subject: Gymnasts not finishing routines
Another gymnast that didn't finish a routine - I believe was Tatiana Lysenko
at the 1991 World Championship Event Finals on bars- she ripped off the bar
on, I forgot what move and didn't remount in fear of a broken finger and her
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:36:26 -0400
Subject: The gymnastics mag. over e-mail
I accidently deleted that message before I got all of the info. if anyone still
has it please send it to me.
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:13:20 -0400
Subject: Question and favor
1) With compulsories gone, how will competition format go? Will
there be just one round of optionals, or two rounds of optionals?
Somehow judgin a team by just one set of routines doesn't seem
to prove much...
2) Could Melissa Craig at UGA mail me please?
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:59:46 -0400
Subject: Re: US Anchors
I agree with some of the anchors mentioned, but I think that it should be
Kerri Strug on vault, and on floor I think it should be between Kerri,
Dominique and Shannon, whoever is most consistent with their tumbling at the
time. I wouldn't want Shannon and Kerri setting up Dominique for an awesome
score, then have her go out of bounds twice, like she did at trials (and
which has been a problem for her in the past). Then again, Kerri's done it
too in the past, although she was solid, and a different gymnast at trials.
Whew, I'm just glad that this descision isn't up to me!
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:10:58 -0400
Subject: Sports Illustrated
Anyone happened to pick up this week's Sports Illustrated? There's a great
photo of Dominique (D.) on bars, and two others (Miller, Moceanu and Chow on
beam). Other than two individual articles (of Moceanu & Miller) at various
times in the past 3 years, this was the first article I've seen about any
gymnastics events in Sports Illustrated. If they keep it up during the
Olympics, it should be quite a sight! I really enjoyed paging through as well
as reading the article. (It's the 7/8 one with Alex Rodriguez of the Seattle
Mariners on the front)
Seadrifter : )
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:34:30 -0400
Subject: Dom. M's floor start value
I was just wondering why Moceanu's floor start value at Nationals was a 9.9.
At Worlds it was a 10.0 with weaker tumbling. In nationals, if I remember
correctly, she did a piked full-in, layout front with 1.5 twists, whip
through to a 2.5 twist, and a layout front full layout front. At worlds she
did piked full in, layout front full, 2.5 twist punch front, and a layout
front full layout front.
She upgraded some of her passes yet lost on the start vaule?
Thanks if you can help.
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 21:00:46 -0400
Subject: Trivial Notes from Trials
I don't know if anyone is interested in this kind of thing, but a few notes
John Rothlesberger (sorry to butcher the spelling of his last name) was
changing after his vault and the crowd started to whistle and cheer. John
looked up confused, apparently not realizing he was the cause of the
Dom. M had a similar thing happen to her. She was changing after doing a mild
workout, stretching routine with Shannon by the p-bars when she was called
for photos by someone in the crowd and wave from underneath her shirt, which
also drew laughs.
Dom. M also had about 5 cokes during optionals. She kept drinking them in the
private box. (Must have seized her opportunity since Bela wasn't looking.)
Shannon and Dom really looked they wanted to compete out there. Both of them
looked pretty down at times. Bela was playing with Dom.'s ears after the
competition, getting her to smile.
Amanda would often not look at Jaycie's routines but then would quickly turn
around after she was done to see the scores. (My sister tells me I have this
one backwards, but I don't think so.)
As much as Nunno annoys me, the guy really does stick by his gymnasts. After
Jennie Thompson's problems on bars, he was visibly diappointed, but when she
was done he went to comfort her and get her focused on her next event. After
compulsories, though, he was talking to her nonstop for about 10 minutes. My
guess is that he was reviewing what she had to do during optionals to get on
Several of the men's gymnasts went to see the women's competition.
Also, does anyone know why there was such a huge Kip Simon's contingent at
the games? He's from PA, but was treated like a New Englander.
Also, sorry for the post about Dom. M's floor. I saw a similar post answering
my question after I had already sent it in.
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 21:52:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Criticism of Dominique M. (and a word on anchors)
Sigh. Since I'm one of the people who has criticized Moceanu's gymnastics,
I suppose I should respond to the question of why anyone might find fault
with her work.
First, let me say that I like Dom M.'s gymnastics and that I think she
should be on the team as long as she's able to compete. She's clearly
(IMO) one of the top seven in the US. But I also think she's overrated.
Vault: When she's vaulting solidly she's pretty good, though not as pretty
as Miller nor as powerful as Dawes or Strug. No big complaints here.
Bars: This (again IMO) is Moceanu's weak event. She rarely hits her Pak
salto, and as a result she all-too-frequently has to improvise until her
routine is back on course. Meanwhile, the US team is awesome on bars; I
don't think there's another gymnast on the olympic squad who hasn't made it
to event finals at worlds' on this event. Am I wrong? I'm uncertain about
Phelps and Chow, certain about the others.
Beam: Dom is pretty good here, but her form needs improvement. Ever watch
her legs and feet during the 3x layout pass? Karoly must not care about
form on beam--I can't remember a Karoly gymnast since Nadia whose form was
up to par. Still, I can think of at least one other gymnast on the squad
whose form is worse.
Floor: I'll admit it. I actually really like Moceanu on floor, although
I'm getting tired of the watered-down tumbling and would love to see the
real thing. I may be nearly alone here, but I'd take Moceanu's floor over
a number of the other gymnasts.
Now, why is it that I'll be accused of jealousy, or stupidity, or plain old
meanness when I say that I like Miller's and Phelps' gymnastics better? Or
that I'd rather see Chow or Borden on bars?
On another topic, I'd have Miller anchor the team on vault and floor. I'd
probably have Jaycie anchor the other two events, but I'm less clear about
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 23:59:00 EDT
Subject: Kim Kelly Article (Last One)
Okay, this is the last call for anyone who wants me to e-mail them the
Kim Kelly article. If you have not received it yet, or you'd like it
and never told me, PLEASE send me a note w/ your e-address. Thanks and
sorry for bothering everyone else.
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 00:45:00 EDT
Subject: Commentators Compared
Tonight (Friday) I was flipping through the channels and saw a showing of US
Women's Olympic Trials. However, I noticed that hte commentators were
different so I taped it hoping to see hwo teh commentators stacked up against
each other. So I'll give y'all the trascripts for 2 different routines by
both NBC and ESAP. This will give us something concrete on which to base our
rantings and rare ravings.
First: Dominique Dawes' Beam Routine (Elements are in caps)
NBC (John Tesh, Elfi Schlegel, and Tim Daggett)
(laughing about Bela)
JT--Dominique Dawes on beam...[pause]...Trying to knock off Kerri Strug just
ES--You know, we've come to expect the best from this young lady--she is the
[PREPARES FOR TUMBLING]
ES--We've seen so many of the young ladies doing acrobatic skills such as this,
it will take her the entire length of the beam.
ES--Oh, she stopped at two--playing it safe.
JT--This (cuts himself off)--WHOA!!
TG--That skill, actually very difficult, a double turn on the balance beam.
Doesn't look obviously as acrobatic as some of the somersaults on the beam,
but very, very tricky.
JT--There is at this moment nothing tangible other than pride at stake for
Dominique Dawes. She WILL be going to the Olympic Games even if she were
to fall off the rest of her routine here.
[PREPARES FOR DISMOUNT]
EF--Big dismount planned--in the past she's taken out the full twist in the
double somi off the beam--we'll see what she does here tonight.
EF--She went for it!
[LANDS AND WAVES]
JT--A final goodbye which works as a hello to Atlanta for Dominique Dawes.
ESPN's coverage (Kathy Johnson and Bob Varsha (don't know him...))
BV--Here's Dominique Dawes on the balance beam.
KJ--This is an event that Dominique has competed so well over the past four
years...especially in pressure situations. We'll see how she handles
these Olympic Trials.
[PREPARES FOR TUMBLING]
KJ--Her trademark pass, three layouts...
KJ--Oh--she took one out. She was probably a little bit off on the second
one and made the wisest choice. That is certainly a veteran's decision.
KJ--Double turn, very difficult--Ooh, a little bobble there...
KJ--There is no pressure that compares to that that happens here at the
Olympic Trials. It is almost paralyzing at times and it really takes
a great athlete with nerves of steel to handle them.
[PREPARES FOR DISMOUNT]
KJ--So far, Dominique is handling them. I've seen her do a better routine
KJ--But this is certainly strong enough. Perfect landing.
Kerri Strug's Beam Routine
JT--Kerri Strug is over at the balance beam. Kerri, second to Dominique
ES--Kerri wasn't happy with her beam performance at the National Championships,
she took out a very difficult mount. She was trying something new at the
Nationals. I asked Bela earlier, "Are you going with the tough mount?"
He said "No way--it's out."
JT--Remember that nine-nine-five she had on the vault.
TG--First major tumbling pass right here...
TG--Right on. Kerri is actually just trailing Dominique Dawes right now.
RG--We've been focusing a lot obviously on the athletes that are in that go
or no-go zone, but I'll tell you what--someone would really like to be the
Olympic Trials champion.
JT--Sixteen hundredths of a point separates them.
[BACK DIVE 1/4]
JT--It is a nice position, I would think, to be in, going as the best in the
U.S. (pause) Shannon is the reigning National Champion.
ES--Kerri certainly has something to prove here today and she wants that spot--
she wants to be a two-time Olympian.
[PREPARES FOR DISMOUNT]
ES--She is--(cutoff by Tim)
TG--Two flips separate her from being that two-time Olympian...
JT--She's going!!! (Wets his pants) [sorry :)]
BV--And here's another gymnast hoping to make her second Olympic Team, Kerri
KJ--This will be Kerri's truest test of whether she can handle this kind of
pressure, which she will certainly feel at the Olympic Games. (pause) She
had a perfect competition going at the U.S. Championships but then fell on
this event. (pause) So she's not just trying to make an Olympic Team--
this will help her confidence going into the games.
KJ--Four elements in a row down the length of the beam--very difficult.
She is incredibly solid--so focused, so intense.
BV--We talked about the pressure--as a veteran of three of these trials, Kathy,
you told me earlier you'd rather compete in any five Olympics than any one
KJ--I used to swear they'd be the death of me. It's a different kind of
pressure. As I said earlier, almost paralyzing pressure that the athletes
train very hard to duplicate in workout so that when they get in the
situation they don't have an out-of-body experience (small laugh).
KJ--She has performed so perfectly so far--she needs a stick on this landing...
KJ--Just a little hop. Oh, what a relief--it's so wonderful to see a smile on
There you have it. Hope y'all can get something out of this, maybe see things
a little clearer now. And sorry about the rip on John Tesh--well, not really
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 15:43:01 +1000
Subject: international members of gymn
>I have not read of many people on here from the former Soviet
>countries, Roumania or China singing the praises or passages of their
Yes, I know this post doesn't really have anything to do with gymnastics,
but I can't resist replying to this.
Are there any gymn members from these countries?? Probably not. I know
there's some guy in Ukraine, but he isn't Ukrainian. And China, the last I
read, only has about 100,000 Internet users (out of a population of over
1bn), and their access is strictly controlled. The populations of these
countries, overall, have limited opportunities to get access to the net, not
to mention the language barrier.
Last time Rachele posted stats, I noticed approximately 75% of the list is
American. Now, I'm not Yank bashing, but in general, you guys tend to
forget that the rest of the world exists. Yes, you have some great gymnasts
- but you are only one of twelve teams who will be competing at Atlanta.
Your women's team is likely to win a medal, but so will two others.
So by all means, extol the virtues of your gymnasts, but just give some
thought to the 200 odd gymn members who aren't American, who don't get TV
coverage to the extent you do, and to large extent, couldn't give a stuff in
which order your women's team compete/get a chance to compete in AA.
BTW, does anyone know who is on the Romanian, Russian and Ukrainian rosters
End of GYMN-L Digest - 5 Jul 1996 to 6 Jul 1996