GYMN-L Digest - 4 Jun 1996 - Special issue

There are 22 messages totalling 615 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. RSG Europeans
  2. FRA Team Champs.
  3. Rhythmic Europeans
  4. Lead Up Skills
  5. GYMN-L Digest - 4 Jun 1996
  6. Olympic tickets
  7. Gyms in Boston...
  8. Bobrova
  9. Atlanta Podium Training tix
 10. Gymnasts in commercials
 11. Podium training photographs
 12. Mocanu
 13. Lead up skills
 14. xRe: Mocanu
 15. Triplecast (was More announcer bloopers)
 16. Marinescu
 17. Atlanta: scary stuff
 18. GYMN-L Digest - 31 May 1996 to 1 Jun 1996
 19. Damian Crozier
 20. French terms for gymnastics
 21. Judging--form and elegance vs. difficulty, Women's Gymnastics
 22. Newsweek on women in the Olympics: gymnastics coverage


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 05:06:44 -0700
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: RSG Europeans

Results of the RSG Europeans, from yesterday's _l'Equipe_ --


1.  Serebrianskaya (UKR)     39.966
2.  Batyrchina (RUS)         39.950
3.  Zaripova (RUS)           39.899

1.  Serebrianskaya           10.000
2.  Batyrchina                9.983
2.  Vitrichenko (UKR)         9.983

1.  Serebrianskaya            9.950
2.  Ogrizko (BLR)             9.933
3.  Popova (BUL)              9.900

1.  Zaripova                 10.000
2.  Serebrianskaya            9.966
3.  Vitrichenko               9.950

1.  Serebrianskaya           9.950
2.  Lukyanenko (BLR)         9.933
3.  Ogrizko                  9.916

The accompanying article says that Petrova decided not to compete here,
and the duel between she and Serebrianskaya will take place at the
Olympics.  No news as to where Lukyanenko finished in the AA, although
the article says that Vitrichenko came in 6th because of a "mediocre
presentation with the clubs."



Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 05:17:51 -0700
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: FRA Team Champs.

Results of the French Team Champs., from yesterday's _l'Equipe_:

1.  Antibes             220.700
    (Landi 53.200, Tayac 46.200, Bonvallet 44.150, Aymes 38.100,
    E. Casimir 35.600, P. Casimir 28.150, Geria 23,700)
2.  Epinay-sur-Senart   210.200
    (Dumont 54.600, Darrigade 52,850, Lemoine 52.250, Prats 41.950,
    Benzza 38.850, Rousseau 16.750)
3.  La Madeleine        208.500
4.  Nantes              204.950
5.  CG Lyon             204.700
6.  Vernon              201.085
7.  Orleans             200.050

1.  Marseille           149.350
    (Canqueteau 38.925, Gely 37.600, Soulie 36,175, Laouna 36.000,
    Gattinois 35.625)
2.  Saint-Etienne       148.875
    (Troscompt 38.075, Volle 37.875, Collet 36.375, Carrascal 34.575,
    Agillianon 18.475, Leone 17.600)
3.  Nimes               144.625
    (Furnon 38.425, Popa 36.175, Ceytte 33,200, Ponge 26.500,
    Darme 25.850, Canovas 17.275)
4.  Dijon               142.025
5.  Creteil             141.925
6.  Meaux               140.650
7.  Dunkerque           139.900

The men's team from Orleans was missing Eric Poujade (because of dental
problems, which required an operation and led to 2 hemorrages, per the
article).  Canqueteau said, "I'm very happy that our team could win...and
my happiness is doubled, since Laetitia Begue may be able to compete in



Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:09:03 +0100
From:    ***@ASUCLA.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Rhythmic Europeans

Why do they keep handing Serebrianskaya titles.. I just don't get it..  I
hope  the cause of Lukyanenko's low placing is that she aimed her clubs at
the judges.

Isn't 39.899 a little high for 3rd place?

Finally DIana Popova got something for her outrageous rope routine!



Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:09:46 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Lead Up Skills

Fellow Gymners, we need your help!

Our girls are looking for lead up skills to the free hip.  They range in age
and weight from 9 years/60 lbs to 12 years/@100 lbs.  Presently we're pulling
them into the handstand from the back side of the circle to give them the
feeling of the motion and hand grips, but we'd like more ideas so they can do
more themselves.  Also, we're always looking for lead ups for any other
skills (fly-aways, different vaults, double tumbling moves, etc.)  If you've
come up with some innovative lead ups in your gyms, please post.  We'll do
the same if we come up with any.

Background--we're a P&R program with a VERY small team (4 level 8's, 5 level
6's, and one level 5) that gets the short end of every stick available
(because team doesn't make money).  We do have strong parental support though
(I'm one of them), and a great new coach (Dana competed up to level 10--the
most qualified coach we've ever had!)
For a long time, we were the Poor Girls form Lee County--now we're starting
to place and advance.  The girls work hard and love the sport.



Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:18:31 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 4 Jun 1996

Tumbling- In response to the sweden interest in tumbling, I, myself am a
tumbler, the equipment needed is  Long (Blue) square mats on spring floor or
ski floor, i am sure most gymnastic mat supplier can tell you how to get
access to them, you would probably also need things such as round, square and
rectangular trampolines, and also a tumble trac which is a long strip of
 trampoline used to try new tumbling skills almost like the regular long mats
but more springy, if you decide to make this a sport in your country we only
need one more country to do it and it will be in the Olympics in 2000. if you
need more info, E-mail me privately and I will try and help you to the best
of my ability

"Life is only what you make it to be, so keep trying to make yourself


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:47:20 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Olympic tickets

Hi Everyone!
 I just got my Olympic tickets in the mail today.  I am going to Poduim
Training on July 16th and 18th and the exhibition on the 30th.  If anyone is
interested in meeting up at any of these events, email me and let me know!
     Seeley :-)


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 13:23:52 -0500
Subject: Gyms in Boston...

Hi again.

I posted about a week ago to find out about gyms in and around the Boston
area with summer gymnastics programs.  Though I did get one response (and
thank you for that, Megan), I would like to keep my options open, and I was
wondering if anyone else could give me more information.

Once again, I am a 20 year old college student who is a relative beginner.
I'm working my way up to a back somersault on the floor at the moment.  I'd
like to find a flexible program that would allow me to come in evenings
and/or weekends - preferably for adult open recreational workouts.  I also
need to work on strength, so some access to weights etc. would be
preferable.  Thanks in advance.



Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:40:00 EDT
From:    ***@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject: Bobrova

Hey, does anyone know what ever happenned to Natalia Bobrova, the Russian
gymnast who competed in the 1993 Worlds?  She was part of that new group of
Russian girls that included Fabrichnova and Kotchetkova.  I only saw her in
that one competition and am interested in her whereabouts, and if she is still
Also, I just wanted to say how much this group means to me!  You guys are all
:) Joy


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:44:00 EDT
From:    ***@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject: Atlanta Podium Training tix

I'm going to be receiving tickets for the podium training sessions in
Atlanta, and was wondering if anyone was interested in buying them (of
course just for face value, I think $22).  I have one ticket for each
session, I think, and I'm really wishing I could be there, but I can't
afford to make the trip from good ol' Pennsylvania.  Contact me if you
are interested.  -Joy


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:00:59 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Gymnasts in commercials

      I just saw a commercial for Lucky Charms cereal.  In it, the
leprauchaun(sp?) is running through different events in the Summer Games,
among them, Track, Swimming, and Gymnastics.   One gymnast is shown, she does
one tumbling pass, a round off, ff, 1 1/2, to a punch front.  If anyone sees
the commercial and can tell me who the gymnast is, I would really appreciate
it.  Thanks!
                            Dawn :)


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:07:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Podium training photographs

Well, I guess the 29 messages I received saying "Yes, take plenty of
photographs at podium training" tell the story. I'm not certain what my
seat will be (a press pass seems pretty impossible, unless someone has
connections?). My wife works for a photographer, so I know his company
has the kind of zoom I want to borrow - I'll just hope he lets me (one
of those 750x bazookas). I'm anticipating 7 hours of photograph taking.
If all goes well, I'll post the information here and arrange to get them
up to Rachele's page or something.
--- Jeff


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:38:30 -0700
From:    ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject: Mocanu

You wrote:
> When the young girl is asked who will be the favorite at the
>women's gymnastics competition at the Olympics, she replies, "I will."
>     "I think that it would be better for her to retire," Marinescu
>without any doubts, and laughs. "It's hardly likely that she'll win
even one
>medal at the Games."

                I tried not to say anything but I can't help it, I'm
sorry. This girl is just too much. She hasn't accomplished anything
nearly as impressive as Bogi and she has the right to say such things
about her? I think that Bogi can definitly win a medal at the games.
And as for who the favorites are, not many people name her as one. It's
true. Most name Shannon or Moceanu or the Pods or Mo. And the
difference between her and them is that they don't play themselves up
nearly as much. Doesn't she relize that there are so many other
gymnasts out there who can beat her easily? She's gonna be real
embarrased if she losses to Bogi!....


                PS- Please stop w/the age thing. PLEASE!! I am 14 and I
don't think 23 is acient. PLEASE STOP!! Just because she is younger
doesn't mean thta she doesn't have any common sense.


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:04:57 -0500
From:    ***@SWOSU.EDU
Subject: Re: Lead up skills

Vanessa had written about lead up skills to various tumbling/bar elements.
I would also be interested in these skills.

Our gym team is also very small.  4- Lv 7, 4-Lv 6, 3-Lv 5, 2-Lv 4.  Our
level 7's, I guess due to age (they are all 14+) are having difficulty
learning the handstands on bars, as well as giants; they say they are
chicken.  We also do not have any pits for the girls to use for training.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.



Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:05:08 -0400
From:    ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: xRe: Mocanu

        Okay, *I* cannot stay silent on this either.
        First of all, you say that Moceanu, Miller et al don't play
themselves up as much.  What do you call Moceanu signing autographs a few
years ago as "AA champ, Atlanta 1996 for sure".  When asked at 1995 USA's
whether Olympic AA champion was within her grasp, she said "yeah, I hope
so .  I"m gonna train for it".
        You say that most people don't name Marinescu as a favourite for
Atlanta.  Really?  Who are you talking to?  I don't know anyone who knows
anything about gymnastics who thinks Moceanu is the favourite.  The only
ones who really believe that IMO are gymnastics ignorant media types,
like John Tesh (who said similar things about Kristie Phillips in 1986
and Dianne Durham in 1983 - yes  I know Dianne didn't make it because of
injury and her gymnastics was more world class than Kristie's was -
Kristie was one of my favourites too, but I know she wasn't as good as
she was hyped to be).  Based on the IG interview with Nadia, it would
seem that Nadia thinks that Marinescu is a favourite for Atlanta too.  So
does Belu (one of, if not the best gymnasts ever, as well as one of the
greatest coaches in the world today think this; does that not mean
        Yes I can see how her comments about Bogi may seem inappropriate,
but since you didn't hear her say it (and since it was translated *twice)
you have no way of knowing how it was meant.  It's my guess that it was
tongue in cheek, but again the written word cannot tell us this.
        You know, in one of the US news magazines back in 1992, there was
an Olympic preview and in the gymnastics segment there was a quote of
KimZ, saying of Boginskaya "I hate her".  This was not a tabloid, but a
reputable magazine (I can't remember which one it was, I think TIME?).
Why did this statement not cause an outrage?  Does anyone else remember
reading this?
        This is the last I plan to say on the matter.  Imagine a 15 year
old girl with the gaul to give her own opinion when asked.  What is this
world coming to? ;-) <sarcasm>


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:57:46 -0400
Subject: Triplecast (was More announcer bloopers)

Back again after yet another absence...

Chris sends this from Peter Vidmar (in part):
>>P.S. I'm glad to see there's another person out there that actually
>>subscribed to the triplecast. For a while I thought just my family signed up.
>>Maybe we reached a double digit audience after all!

We did too!  As original subscribers may recall, the decision to do this
became VERY easy when I was ordered to stay out of work for 6 weeks
following lung surgery #2.  (And I hadn't "planned" this one around the
Olympics - I only wanted the operation to come after my vacation.)

Of course, I've joked several times that I need another operation to catch
up on watching all the tapes...  ;-)

Trying to figure out how to tape the trials while on vacation...


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:05:43 -0400
Subject: Marinescu

     I definitely agree with Alisa that the true spirit of the Olympics is to
compete and to do your best, medals or not. And, in fact, I think this is
exactly what Boginskaya's attitude is, which sets a fantastic example. As for
Marinescu, I think there's a good chance that given her circumstances and her
age, she just isn't able to appreciate this philosophy yet. The Romanian
coaches (judging from what Belu said) are sending her the message that they
pretty much expect her to win and if she doesn't do well, it will be a failure
of sorts. Romania is not going into the Olympics looking for a "learning
experience" or the joy of competition, it's going there with an eye toward
medals - gold ones. This is the attitude Alexandra is surrounded by and,
naturally, it's going to affect her views on things. Yes, from OUR perspective,
the comments about Boginskaya seem inappropriate and rude. But we are not
Romanian gymnasts whose coach is telling them they are the best and a favorite
for the gold. When is the last time there was a 23-year-old on the Romanian
team? Alexandra probably can't imagine such a thing, because it would be
unheard-of in Romania. Especially with the heavy emphasis on medals and
winning. She is bound to have a different mind-set and perspective from ours
(and many other gymnasts as well, those who aren't in the hunt for AA gold).
You've got to look at the context of her life when you "analyze" the things she
said. It seems to me that she's been taught that the purpose of competing is to
win, and that's that. It could be that she's basically just mystified by Bogy's
desire to compete or, if she views not winning a medal as a "failure," can't
understand why Bogy would subject herself to such "humiliation." WE know it's
not humiliation, but does Alexandra?? Good chance she doesn't. Let's say
Romania doesn't win the team gold in Atlanta, that China surpasses them. Does
anyone think the Romanian girls - ANY of them - would be content with the
silver? I, for one, think they would believe that they "failed." On the other
hand, if the US takes the silver, the American girls will probably be thrilled!
That would be an incredible achievement for them. So it all depends on where
you're coming from.



Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:03:46 +0100
From:    ***@ASUCLA.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Atlanta: scary stuff

There are lots of favorites for Atlanta... some for their gymnastics, some
for their coaches, some for sentimental reasons.. arguing over who is and
isn't a favorite is silly... it is impossible to single out one or two
people because the field is just too large and you never know how the crowd
and judges will react..

In my not so humble opinion, there shouldnt be any romanians or americans in
the top 3 for the women.. but I also thought Lyssenko would win AA in
Barcelona, Omelianchik in Seoul and Agache in LA... 0 for 3... I stopped
trying to predict things (although I must point out I picked LI Xiaoshuang
and Mo to win in Sabae and missed by 1 beam fall).  Ok maybe I didnt' stop
trying to predict things... My train of thought just went in a circle...

My point here is that Marinescu is entitled to her opinion just as you are
to yours... you should never put someone down for their opinion... all this
"where does she get off saying that" crap is just that... let her say what
she wants...  When Groshkova complained that she should have won FX in 90
Euros I not only agreed with her but was glad she had the guts to say it...



Date:    Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:44:49 +0100
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 31 May 1996 to 1 Jun 1996

My name is Rod and I run a club in Great Britain called South
Essex Gymnastics Club. I am coach to Annika Reeder who is the current
British Champion and we will be coming to Atlanta with the British
The main reason for writing is that I have a gymnast coming to me who is
moving from the states and wants to come to my club. Her father thinks
she is level 9 but as I have no idea what this means it does not help me
to know what she is working. Could somebody email me privately to
explain the significance of the levels and what sort of work somebody at
this level might be doing.


Date:    Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:58:06 +1000
From:    ***@COUGAR.VUT.EDU.AU
Subject: Damian Crozier

        I would just like to extend my deepest sympathy to Australian
elite gymnast Damian Crozier, his family and team mates.  For those of
you who dont know, Damian is a member of Australia's mens national team
at the AIS and has represented Australia at several major international
competitions. Damien has unfortunately suffered extensive burns to
40% of his body after his flat caught fire while he was asleep two days
ago.  Although his career is now over, i would like to wish Damien luck
with his recovery and hope that he is able to aspire to new dreams and
goals with the same success.


Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 22:04:26 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: French terms for gymnastics

Hello there.  I have been lurking around this site for about two months now,
and I decided that it was time for me to introduce myself.  I am a junior in
high school, and I have been involved in gymnastics for about two years.  I
compete for my high school team, and although I'm not good, I love the sport,
both as a competitor and a fan.  Anyway, the reason I decided to post was
that I am going to give a presentation in my French class about gymnastics.
 If there are any French speakers out there who are familiar with French
words for gymnastics terms, I would appreciate it if they could e-mail me.
 Thanks very much.



Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 21:28:25 CST
From:    ***@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: Judging--form and elegance vs. difficulty, Women's Gymnastics

This will pick up threads of a couple of posts, one being from the coach
who felt Chari Knight Hunter was a bit over-scored at JO Nationals, and the
other being comments about Pod's legs apart on her Giengers.  It is long,
for those who want to quit reading now!

Many of us who judge truly appreciate well-done gymnastics, no matter what
the skill level.  It's one reason I love watching compulsories.
For example, to watch a perfect cartwheel or full turn or split leap on
beam is awesome, even though they are only "A" skills.

Thus, (as I was one of the judges at JO Nationals), we reward perfection in
technique.  For me, watching Chari Knight and seeing pencil-pointed toes,
180o splits, amplitude and height on leaps and jumps, head back on ring and
sheep jumps made me want to stand up and yell out, "YES!"  Now, we DID
take some minor deductions in the compositional area for lack of "building"
in the routine.  (Mounted with a D, dismounted with some tumbling through
to a B in her beam routine.)  However, watching exquisitely (spelling?)
performed gymnastics in both the dance and tumbling pointed out what
perhaps should have been deducted on other gymnasts.  I suspect at times
coaches look primarily to the difficulty in the routines, and are not
always as picky about the perfection in the execution.  For coaches who
have trained "big tricks," it could feel as if well-performed routines were
over-scored.  Just some thoughts on that subject.

Other thoughts.  As judges, we all have our biases.  My personal bias is
for well-done gymnastics (amplitude and form), with a special love for
well-done dance.  I think it's because there are SO MANY good tumblers out
there, that the athlete who can dance really catches my eye.  I also think
that many of us who judge relate what we see to our experiences as athletes
and coaches.  I'm in my late 30's, and many of the judges nationally are in
their 30's and 40's.  (Boomers--it follows us everywhere.....)  Back in our
era, we really emphasized flexibility and form.  (We didn't have the
training or equipment to do the big tricks like the gymnasts do today.)
So, given that background, one of my "pet peeves" is gymnasts who DON'T
have 180o splits.  It's hard for me to understand, because even us
"unflexible" people worked very hard at getting splits in our leaps and
jumps.  I've talked with coaches locally and regionally about this, and a
lot of it has to do with the need to work on so many other skills, that the
training time is not always devoted to the flexibility work.

Finally, to the comments about Pod's Gienger's.  Yes, the judges should
deduct if they see her legs apart.  And yes, it can be hard to see
depending on where the judges sit.  (The quote I've heard in judging
clinics is, "Where you sit (about a score) depends on where you
sit.")  Anyhow, a technical point is that separation of legs is an up to
.15 deduction versus other form deductions such as bent knees or arms which
are up to .2 deductions on bars, beam or floor. (page 22, Current Code of
Points)  So, legs apart is a lesser deduction than other form deductions.
For a minor separation of legs, a judge could take say .025 or .05 where
she might take .05 or .1 for bent arms or knees.  I haven't watched the
tape closely of the competition that people on the forum have been
discussing on Pod's Gienger form, but thought that the deduction should at
least be pointed out.  (And for the male judges out there, including
Dean, I don't mean to exclude you by using "she," however at big
international competitions, the judges are women.)

Anyhow, I'm not sure this thread connects well with current forum
discussions, but wanted to share some thoughts and see what kind of
response others might have.



Date:    Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:17:01 -0400
From:    ***@EROLS.COM
Subject: Newsweek on women in the Olympics: gymnastics coverage

For those who haven't seen this week's issue, you may want to take a look

Most of the coverage is re track, and the history of women's participation in
the games (I found this material more interesting than the gymnastics, but
perhaps because I am less well-informed in these areas), but they do devote
several pages to gymnastics (and include gymnastics prominently in their
timeline of the games:  1936 Berlin, debut of women's gymnastics as an event;
1956 Melbourne and the start of Larissa Latynina's run; 1976 & Olga Korbut;
1980 & Nadia Comaneci; 1984 and Mary Lou Retton).

Moceanu and Miller are featured, with the requisite comments on young
prodigies and comparisons of Dominique to Nadia, etc.; and comments on
Shannon's toughness and introspection, with a suggestion that she is happier
not having to play the frontrunner role.  Nothing earth-shattering, and
plenty to disagree with.  Though they do comment wryly on the potential that
Moceanu, "at her tender age and diminutive size (4 foot 6 and 71 pounds)" "is
[] fated to be poster cild for the perennial backlash against her sport," as
"[t]he Olympic showcase inevitably escalates criticism that women's
gymnastics . . . is an institutionalized form of child abuse" -- in a way
that indicates they have little interest in taking sides in this debate
(though they note in the feature on Shannon that while male adult athletes
are lauded for competing with injuries, young female gymnasts who do the same
find their coaches challenged; personally, I think adult v. child, rather
than male v. female, rightly has a lot to do with the difference in
response);  but -- despite all this relatively subtle, if nonetheless
noncommittal commentary, they also say that "[t]echnically, Moceanu still has
to qualify for the . . . team"!  Certainly, we all expect her to . . . but a
technicality?  Oh, well.  The real howler, though, was in a passage talking
about introverted young gymnasts' shyness in front of cameras:  "most of the
girls would prefer five hours on the rings to five minutes with a
journalist"!  Maybe so, but do you suppose the journalist has any idea that
five hours on the rings would be unusual for most?  (it might work as a quip
for those in the know, i suppose, but the audience is clearly not geared to
people who know instantly on reading that sentence that rings is a men's

Photos:  big ones of Dom in a double stag leap & of Shannon on beam; little
one of Nadia on beam (I suppose so the masses can see how much she
really looks like Moceanu).

Anyway, couldn't resist the urge to comment.



End of GYMN-L Digest - 4 Jun 1996 - Special issue