GYMN-L Digest - 3 Jul 1996 to 4 Jul 1996 - Special issue

There are 22 messages totalling 614 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. Flash photography at gym meets
  2. Nadia Swatch Watch
  3. What did Bela say?
  4. comments about OT (long)
  5. MOceanu's FX Start Value
  6. Did the Trials set a record?
  7. TV Alert
  8. Gymnasts not finishing routines
 10. Dominique and kerri
 11. Bill Foster & reality
 12. GYMN-L Digest - 3 Jul 1996 - Special issue
 13. Attn:  BETH GOLDER
 14. Observations (2)
 15. idea for 7-6-5 revision
 16. Continuation of last note
 18. Moceanu in Atlanta?
 19. Great NBC Coverage
 20. NBC converage, women's trials...
 21. Olympics and Positive Thoughts!


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:14:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Flash photography at gym meets

Jennifer wrote:
>Suggestion here: Try "pusing" the film instead. Open up your
>f-stop as far as possible, push the film to 1,600 or 3,200 and
>work from there. You might get some usable pictures.

Unless you develop your own film, there's a >gotcha< here. Pushing your
film also means the film must be push-processed.  When you take your film
into a photofinisher, you will have to tell them what ASA you pushed it to.
As different chemicals (or a different mix) are required,  MOST custom
photofinishers will charge you extra (up to double) for push processing.
This cannot be done in an hour either, like at a Motophoto or Price Club,

I was also in attendance at the Fleet Center for the U.S. Olympic Trials
all weekend.  The announcer was asked to say, "If you cannot turn off your
flash, then please cover it up".   Um... duh... this does NOT work.  The
flash will still go off, visibily, annoying everyone around you, the police
(or whoever those husky uniformed men with hats were) will hunt you down in
your seats, AND all your shots will be shamefully WAY underexposed.

My Minolta Maxxum cameras do all this automatic stuff so I can't push film.
If you're intent on shooting during competition, get FAST film like Fuji
800 Super G, 1600 Super HG, Kodak Royal Gold 1000, or Ektapress 1600 Plus
colour print film, or Kodak Tmax 3200 black & white print film.  The film
will be more expensive but not the processing and well worth it in terms of

Otherwise, save your flash photography for the pageantry, ceremonies, and
post-meet celebrations.  Actually, it was quite remarkable how hundreds of
flashes went off during the Springfield College Tableaus performances on
both nights of optionals.  It was like fireworks!

Speaking of which, on both nights, I ran out of film before they lit the
torch so if anyone has a nice shot of the Tableaus' finale, I'll trade for
a nice action shot (of which I have many - men & women).  E-mail me.




Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:31:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Nadia Swatch Watch

No Name wrote:
>I am wondering if anyone has seen the Nadia Swatch watch? There is a series
>of pictures on the strap. All are from the 1976 Olympics, except the one at
>the top. Nadia's competition number was 73 from the 1976 Olympics, but the
>top picture shows Nadia in a leotard with the number 38 performing either a
>Comaneci dismount on bars (most likely) or a cuervo on vault. Therefore this
>picture is not presumably from the 1976 Olympics. Just out of curiosity,
>does anyone know from which competition this top picture was taken?

I have one of these Swatches.  The top image might be from the pre-Olympic
event.  My memories from 20 years ago aren't that clear.  To me, it kinda
looks like her double twist on floor.

BTW, there's a big huge one (working clock) hanging at the Swatch booth at
the Prudential Center in Boston.  Nadia and Bart made an appearance there
on Saturday.  The lineup looked rather long.  I was having a sandwich
outside, enjoying a few brief moments of sun between Congress sessions.
Did any of you actually  go to this?  Did they do a demo?  The giant Nadia
Swatch was padded like a mat.  I wondered if they'd lay it out on the
ground so she'd tumble on it.




Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:39:05 -0400
Subject: What did Bela say?

I just watched the NBC broadcast of the US Olympic Trials.  Towards the end
of the women's compulsories show, they zoom in on Bela Karolyi sitting
there obviously enjoying the evening.  He turns to the camera and sputters
what sounds like, "Ha ha ha... Grafaglog, I get you palinka for this!", and
then slaps hands with the cameraman.  I don't have a Transylvanian-English
English-Transylvanian dictionary handy.  Could someone please translate?


<Don't ask me what I'm doing up so early this morning...>


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:18:29 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: comments about OT (long)

In a message dated 96-07-03 06:07:23 EDT, you write:

<<  If they "fix" it so that Moceanu makes it to the all
 around final, it will be one the biggest farces in gymnastics history. >>

ABSOLUTELY!!!  Let's just say for a minute that Dom M will be in good shape
for the Olympics.  If she does the same  FX as she did at nationals, it will
only be out of a 9.9!  Therefore, it would certainly be unfair to put her on
floor when other gymnasts are more capable.  (like Chow or Borden)
Speaking of Chow, I really didn't like her floor.  I don't know about the
issue of the music being offensive, but I felt it was completely unsuited to
her personality.  I thought it was interesting to see her on compulsary
floor, doing a routine to classical-type music.  It looked so much better on
her!  With her body type and personality, I think classical or some type of
lighter music would be much better for her.

I'm so happy for Amanda Borden!  She had so much energy in her floor routine.
 Did you see her near triple full in her second pass?!! :)
I'm also happy for Kerri Strug.  Has anyone else noticed that she has her
best meets (eg,  these OT's and the American Cup) When she can get the total
attention of Bela?  (No Dom M to worry about)

I was really happy to see Mary Beth Arnold and Kulikowski at OTs.  I realized
that out of all of the competitors, they were the only 2 I had never seen
compete!  I really liked Mary Beth's beam.  Original choreography.
I was disappointed at Dom Dawes' compulsary beam.  No, she didn't fall, but
it really was a terrible routine.  The announcers really didn't pick up on
it, but I had seats right behind the beam, and could see clearly her major
mess up on her mount, and her shakiness throughout the entire routine.

Now, two quick questions:  How is Marta Karolyi a head coach for the Olympic
team?  I thought she was only a beam coach.  Also, Jeff asked about if we
could hear John Tesh in the Fleet Center.  No, he wasn't announcing, but I
swear I could hear his voice.  Was I the only one?  During the gymnasts' beam
routines, when the arena was silent, I heard quiet, but annoyingly persistant
static sounds that were obviously words. (though they were undecipherable) My
mom, who was sitting with me, picked up on this too.  Let me know if you
heard this too!

I just got back from Boston, so this was my first chance to comment on the
trials... that's why this is so long :)  Thanks for bearing with me!!!



Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:31:53 -0400
From:    ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: MOceanu's FX Start Value

        Even though I've made it no secret that I'm not a Moceanu fan, I
think her floor start value needs to be clarified.  USA Elite meets are
judged using competition 3 rules, which require 2 "D" moves just to get
the base score of 9.4; therefore you don't start getting bonus for an
extra "D" until your third "D".  The floor routine that Dominique did at
USA"s this year would start from a 10 in both team (comp.1b) and AA finals
(comp.2) at the Olympic Games.  In her tumbling alone she had 4 "D"
moves, plus adequate special connections bonus, which would give her the
10 SV even in competition 2.  The judges at USA's obviously didn't give
her credit for her cat leap 2/1 as this is a "D" move and her routine
would therefore have started from 10.  Btw she could even water down her
tumbling from USA's and start from a 10.0 in Atlanta in the team event: in
competition1b only three "D"s, or 1 D and one E plus full connection bonus
is needed for the 10.0 Start Value.
        Again, I just thought that this should be cleared up.


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:10:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Did the Trials set a record?

I believe you'll find that the 1991 Worlds at the Hoosier Dome in
Indianapolis set the US record, if not all-time, for attendance at a gym meet.


>On Friday night the attendance was announced at over 16,500, and on Sunday
>night (women's optionals) the attendance was almost 17,500!! That WAS a
>FleetCenter attendance record, but I'm not sure about gymnastics in general.


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:35:27 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: TV Alert

I was browsing through the TVguide and I noticed that on ABC's WWOS this
week, they are going to be broadcasting the Europeans from Birmingham. It is
on at 4:30 Eastern. Does anybody know if this was the Europeans that were
supposed to be on two weeks ago, when boxing was on instead?

yours in gymnastics,


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:06:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Gymnasts not finishing routines

How about Tatiana Lissenko at the 91 worlds after hurting her fingers.  I
can't remember but I am almost posotive she walked off in a dazed impression


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:16:42 -0400
Subject: Re: kERRI STRUG

Hi Leanne,
I can't tell you how much I agree with you.  I think Kerri's form on beam
is great.  I think she chould compete on every event.
As far as uneven bars go, I would take moceanu out.  How ever, since that
event is the least pounding on her leg, then I think that the coaches
will put her on that event rather than any other.
You must also consider politics.  Moceanu and strug are the head coaches
gymnasts.  IMO both will be in contention to make AA.  I don't think
moceanu should, but since bela still has his influence.....
As for mary lee, there is NO way she will take phelps off any event.
IMO the two gymnasts who have the greatest chance of suffering are
shannon and dom. d.
A sham too since both could win.
Well Just my opinion. Alisa


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:21:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Dominique and kerri

I saw something at trials that I really liked.  It seems that dom. m.
truly admires kerri.  She was seen trying to catch up with her, and as
kerri approached dom's face went from the pout she had on all day to a
huge smile.  Just my opinion, and a nice thing to see.


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 13:18:54 -0400
Subject: Bill Foster & reality

Well, I for one am happy to finally find out that a reality is defined
as being only one's own opinion. Although I offered up the possibility
that Tom Forster had his head down out of disappointment FOR his girls,
I would like to point out, yet again, that we spectators are free to
form opinions on coaches as we would on politicians, movie stars et al.,
and that if I were a parent (which would make me one of those worthless
spectators) that I would be disgusted if my daughter had just had her
heart broken in the trials but her coach wasn't there to comfort her
because he was having a hissy fit.

Just my opinion and ... (see below)
--- Jeff


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 13:22:31 -0400
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 3 Jul 1996 - Special issue

That sounds a bit exaggerated to me. The duration depends on where
you're going from/to as there can be train changes involved, but I'd say
offhand that to go from anywhere on the Perimeter (I285) to the center
of downtown Atlanta where the gymnastics are held is about 30 minutes
without changes, and MARTA lets you out right next to the Georgia Dome.
Keep in mind, they're expecting the MARTA lots to be full by 7am.
--- Jeff


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 02:28:04 -0700
From:    ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject: Attn:  BETH GOLDER


Thanks for the great wishes from you, Rhiann, and your entire club!

I lost your email address, so I wasn't able to send this to you

I appreciate you taking the time to send the note!



Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:54:00 EDT
From:    ***@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject: Observations

I think a reason that Kristy Powell went back to Aladdin music is
because so many gymnasts started using "Fugue" performed by Vanessa-Mae.
Not only Mary Beth, but many college athletes, and a bunch of other top
gymnasts.  However, I think Kristy's choreography was the best out of
all the Fugue routines.

In response to Jeff's comments, I think the US needs Amanda on the team.
There has been so many problems with team unity in the past, and Amanda
really brings everyone together.  I mean, you could see the difference
in the 1994 World Team (with Amanda) and the 1995 World Team (wihtout).
Her major contributions may not be in score, but in spirit, which may
prove more valuable in the end.

I too noticed a bit of hostility between Kerri and Shannon.  I also
noticed it at the 1996 Nationals.  Kerri was talking and laughing with
Jennie Thompson and when Shannon came over to have Jennie unpin her
competition number, Kerri immediately froze up and left.  Anyone know
the history of this?

I agree that Forster's actions did not LOOK good, but TV has a way of
focusing on unimportant things.  I too was a little offended by how the
profile of Tom and co.  said that he gave up his Olympic dreams in high
school, and now they rested with his athletes, but NBC made it out to be
that way--NOT Tom Forster.  I agree that he was probably disappointed
FOR his athletes.  And there is a lot of pressure since Tom so publicly
opposes harsh training methods to show that you can still get results in
a positive environment.  I think the Forsters are some of the best
people to come though gymnastics in a while.  (Besides Mary Lee Tracy,
of course!) Their gymnasts are well-rounded individuals as well as great
athletes.  A gymnasts who used to train with the Forsters attends Penn
State and as a freshman has proved to be one of the best gymnasts Penn
State has ever seen.  Besides this, though, she is very kind and very

I seriously don't think that Dom Moc will be up to competing in Atlanta.
If she and Bela are this upset about it, that should tell everyone
something.  I hope she's not pushed past her limit so that she may
compete in future competitions.  Her career should not be over at 14.
(And college gymnastics is out of the question since she gave up her
eligibility at the knowledgable age of 12...)


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 15:04:14 -0500
Subject: idea for 7-6-5 revision

My partner, who isn't all that interested in gymnastics but who patiently
listens to my thoughts anyway, just came up with an idea for revising the
7-6-5 rule to make it more tolerable.

What would you think of a system whereby the coaches decided which six
gymnasts they want to have compete in each event.  Then all seven gymnasts
compete, but the score of the seventh doesn't count toward team competition
no matter how good it is.  It does, however, count toward qualification for
AA and event finals.

With that system in place, coaches could choose the best gymnasts on each
event for the team competition without jeopardizing anyone's chances in the


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 15:09:00 EDT
From:    ***@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject: Continuation of last note

Sorry, sent it by accident.

Considering Dom Moc's condition, and also considering that Marta is head
coach, I think Dom will be on the team but should not compete in all
events.  Especially not on floor--her start value before this big layoff
was 9.9 and obviously her tumbling is not up to par with top athletes,
even on the US team.  That said, here's who I think should compete
optional routines:

VAULT--Strug, Dawes, Chow, Phelps, Miller, Moceanu (if healthy enough)
UBARS--Strug, Dawes, Chow, Phelps, Miller, Borden
BEAM---Strug, Dawes, Chow, Phelps, Miller, Borden
FLOOR--Strug, Dawes, Chow, Phelps, Miller, Borden

Seeing this, I really think that having Dom Moc on the team will hurt
the US.  I am also concerned about Dom herself.  There is no way that
she will be in any kind of shape to compete at a high level, and if she
does, I really think it could end her career.  What for?  One or two
routines which will surely not be her best?  I think Dom should focus on
the long-term, not just the Olympics.  It hurts me to see her suffering
mentally right now, but I'd hate to see her compete, not do well, and
retire feeling like a failure.  I don't know what I'd do as her coach.
But I'm not her coach, so that's one less decision I'll have to make.

Miller is obviously not out of shape at all, I am sure she'll be up to
Atlanta standards.

What does everyone think of having Kulikowski on the team?  I'm all for
it--let Dom heal and be in Sydney 2000.

Joy :)

PS-Did the people who requested the Kim Kelly article ever get it?  I've been
having computer problems and I'm not sure if they were ever send.  E-mail me
privately  and let me know if I need to send it again.


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 15:17:38 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM

Looking for a girls team coach (levels 5-9) and/or a head boys coach.   New
(8 months old) gym in Michigan that is growing quickly (400+ students, with
42 on team).  There is a tremendous opportunity here for growth and
responsibility,  in an affluent, highly populated area, 30 miles west of
Detroit.  Great gym with pits and in-ground tumble trak, pleasant working
environment.  Need someone with energy, enthusiasm and ideas. Philosophy of
gym is upbeat, playful and innovatitive.  Motto of gym is "all children are
stars." Lots of opportunity for advancement, travel.

Experience with gym management, computer skills, and marketing and
fundraising a plus.

Contact ***
All Star Gymnastics
235 E. Main St.
P.O. Box 147
Northville, MI  48167


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 15:15:20 -0600
Subject: Moceanu in Atlanta?

One thing that I do find distressing is that Moceanu seems to
be thinking (by her words -ALL I worked for all my life) that if she
doesn't compete in Atlanta then she blew it. I think that with alot more
maturing she could be a better gymnast. She might not be the 'olympic
champ' but that is a long shot anyway and she could even qualify to
AA and not win a medal. Does that mean she failed? I see alot of
pressure on this athlete and even though I dislike her gymnastics
i feel it is stupid of her or anyone to measure her success and
hard work by an AA gold medal. By that measure, only a handfull
of gymnast would be a success. Someone needs to talk to her.


Dina, Dina, Dina.


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 16:31:28 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Great NBC Coverage

To All:
   I was on the phone Monday with a co-worker, and she started talking to me
about the men's gymnastics meet she had seen on Saturday. (The trials, of
course.) She went on to say how exciting it was and how she was cheering so
loudly for Chainey Umphrey.
    I was a bit taken aback by this conversation. This woman is NOT a
gymnastics fan, nor did she know I was. She simply brought this up in normal
conversation. She went on to name the various competitors and tell me about
their routines. (Saturday was the first men's gymnastics meet she had ever
    After a few minutes, I told her of my involvement with gymnastics and
began questioning her on what she liked about the broadcast. She, of course,
liked all the little side stories that made the competitors more "human" and
likeable to the average person.
    I think on the Gymn list, we get too wrapped up in ourselves and what WE
think a broadcast should be. The fact of the matter is that we likely
represent less than 1 percent of the market that NBC (and other stations) are
aiming for.
    I watched both the mens and the womens trials over the weekend and was
overwhelmingly pleased with their coverage. The opening segments were
particularly wonderful and were perfect for drawing in non-gymnastics fans to
the show. (That's how my friend was drawn in.)
    On a related note, a lot of people pick on some of the commentators
because they say certain things again and again, but we only notice that
because we watch EVERY broadcast. For the average non-fan, those comments are
important -- just as the recurring stories about Shannon, Dominique, etc.,
are important.
     I'm sure there are track fans and volleyball fans out there who are
bothered by certain commentators, but you and I likely wouldn't be bothered
because we so rarely would be watching such broadcasts.
     The same is true with most people of the gymnastics broadcasts.
     I applaud NBC for their coverage and thank them for giving our sport a
special boost.
-- Ronald


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:07:35 PDT
From:    ***@CISCO.COM
Subject: Re: NBC converage, women's trials...

    Just wanted to say -- particularly since I have been receiving some
    very nice email from NBC about my comments on trials over the weekend
    that I may have been too hard on them in my last message...

I thought coverage was good (better than usual.)  Moreover, I thought
that it looked like NBC had listened to comment HERE!  In particular,
I though that the ratio of actual gymnastics to "commentary" was high,
and the decisions to focus on the "bottom" positions (including human
interest segments on FORMER near-olympians) was "interesting".  I also
appreciated that the competing athletes were more-or-less left alone.



Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:49:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Observations

I thought about one thing regarding dom m. and karoly.  We all know that
karoly has shall we say a flair for the dramatic side.  Could everyone be
hyping dom's injury, so that when she performs brilliantly in atlanta
everyone can be so impressed with how she overcame adversity?
I certainly hope not.


Date:    Thu, 4 Jul 1996 16:25:00 CST
From:    ***@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: Olympics and Positive Thoughts!

I've been packing & shopping & getting ready to go to Atlanta.  I'll be
there for 3 weeks as an assistant with the scoring.  I am starting to get

Anyhow, while at USAG Congress last week, I attended a session on "Olympic
Protocol" meant for those of us who will be volunteering there.  A point
that was heavily emphasized about being POSITIVE.  While we as Americans
love our freedom of speech and chances to talk & speculate, the rest of the
world, and the rest of the world's judges don't necessarily come from the
same background.  Negative talk can be VERY damaging and rude to our
visitors from throughout the world.

So what we all can do, is to stay positive about ALL the gymnasts, American
and foreign.  "Setting up" other judges with negative talk and speculation
may actually be a detriment to the US kids.  This is an International list,
and most certainly judges, coaches and officials from throughout the world
are "listening in."

I thought it might be an important point to share.  I know there are some
on the list that could take offense at the suggestion that their speech be
less than open and free.  But, positive talk and affirming thoughts may be
the supportive and helpful feedback we can give in working towards the best
and most exciting Olympic Games ever.

On to Atlanta, and GO GYMNASTICS!!



End of GYMN-L Digest - 3 Jul 1996 to 4 Jul 1996 - Special issue