GYMN-L Digest - 22 Apr 1995 to 23 Apr 1995 - Special issue

There are 29 messages totalling 1097 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. NCAA Team Finals
  2. USA Gymnastics
  3. hi
  4. NCAA Men's Event Finals Results
  5. Chinese gymnasts
  6. Event finalists (2)
  7. jo rhythmics in atlanta
  8. VISA Challenge
  9. PC Gymnastics (2)
 10. PC [or MAC] Gymnastics
 11. Unintended Consequence
 12. Notes from the coaches' meetings
 13. Unsubscribing
 14. NCAA Women's Scores
 15. #1(2) GYMN-L Digest - 21 Apr 1995 to 22 Apr 1995
 16. Compulsories.
 17. event finalists (2)
 18. Mukhina (2)
 19. Comments on Event Finals (Men)
 20. do two negatives make a positive?
 21. Floor routines
 22. Trivia Answers #28 - Beam and PH
 23. SI slams rhythmic gymnastics
 24. Cool idea (well I think so!)
 25. Government Enquiry into AIS


Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 00:07:54 -0400
Subject: Re: NCAA Team Finals

> >"An unintended consequence of Title IX" -- the goal of the CGA is to speak
> positively and non-confrontationally about men's gymnastics in relation to
> money-making and women's sports.
> I'm interested to hear other opinions, but I find this phrase *highly*
> confrontational...

I agree.  It sounds insincere to me.



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 00:08:21 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: USA Gymnastics

I was wondering if anyone could give my some info about USA Gymnastics
Online.  What is it and how do you get it?  Please e-mail me if you can help.

Ann Marie


Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 15:49:05 EST-11
Subject: hi

Hi, I'm not sure that my last post got through - I'm new to the joys
of e-mail!
Anyway, my name is Simone and I'm a library student at RMIT
in Melbourne, Australia.  I've been interested in gym since the late
1970s.  I participated for about 4 years but I'm still really
One of the major problems of being a gym fan in Australia is that we
don't have very much press coverage.  I've been reading the archived
files of gymn for some time but I've only just gotten round to
Gotta go, until my next post.


Date:    Sat, 22 Apr 1995 23:51:46 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: NCAA Men's Event Finals Results

53rd Annual National Collegiate Men's Gymnastics Championships
The Ohio State University
Columbus OH
April 20-22 1995

Individual Event Finals

Floor Exercise
1.  Jay Thornton (Iowa) 9.8500
2.  Josh Stein (Stan) 9.8375
3.  Darren Elg (BYU) 9.8125
4.  Jeremy Killen (OK) 9.7625
5.  Daniel Stover (OK) 9.7125
6.  Darin Gerlach (Temple) 9.5750
7.  Brian Winkler (Mich) 9.4750
8.  Richard Grace (NEB) 9.4500
9.  Keith Wiley (Stan) 9.4000

 Pommel Horse
1.  Drew Durbin (OSU) 9.9000
2.  Jeremiah Landry  (Ill) 9.8375
3.  Brian Yee (Minn) 9.8250
4.  Josh Stein (Stan) 9.7250
5.  Danny Akerman (Temple) 9.7000
6.  Jeff Kraft (W. Mich) 9.6500
7.  Blaz Puljic (UNM) 9.6375
8.  Kendall Schiess (UNM) 9.5625

1.   Dave Frank (Temple) 9.8250
2.   Bryan Fox (Cal) 9.7875
2.   Blaine Wilson (OSU) 9.7875
4.   Josh Stein (Stan) 9.7750
5.   Andrew Manson (Stan) 9.7250
6.   Dave Eckert (OSU) 9.7125
7.   Tony Pansy (PSU) 9.6125
8.   Kenzo Koshimura (BYU) 9.5000
9.   Kevin Schwartz (U Mass) 9.2500
10. Richard Grace (Neb) 9.2000

1.   Ian Bachrach (Stan) 9.7125
2.   Sebronzik Wright (W & M) 9.6250
3.   Ofri Porat (SYR) 9.5750
3.   Jeremy Killen (OK) 9.5750
5.   Colby Van Cleve (Minn) 9.5125
6.   Keith Wiley (Stan) 9.4750
7.   Neil Niemi (OSU) 9.4250
8.   Steve Marshall (Army) 9.4000
9.   Brian Yee (Minn) 9.2750
10. Richard Grace (Neb) 9.1250
11. Rick Kieffer (Neb) 9.1000
12. Josh Stein (Stan (8.7250

 Parallel Bars
1.   Richard Grace (Neb) 9.8000
2.   Blaz Puljic (UNM) 9.7500
3.   Jay Thornton (Iowa) 9.7375
4.   Jamie Ellis (Stan) 9.6750
4.   Tony Pansy (PSU) 9.6750
6.   Tom Ellefson (PSU) 9.5625
7.   Dave Eckert (OSU) 9.4000
8.   Drew Durbin (OSU) 9.1500
9.   Gary Thagard (UNM (8.9500

 High Bar
1.  Rick Kieffer (Neb) 9.8375
2.  Blaz Puljic (UNM) 9.7875
3.  Casey Bryan (OK) 9.7250
3.  Aaron Basham (OK) 9.7250
3.  Darren Elg (BYU) 9.7250
3.  Carl Imhauser (Temple) 9.7250
7.  Jeremy Killen (OK) 9.3750
8.  Josh Stein (Stan) 9.2750
9.  Dubie Bader (Temple) 9.1250
10.  Jason Christie (Neb (8.3250


Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 15:25:00 -0600
Subject: Chinese gymnasts

     I was wondering if anybody knows the whereabouts of 14 year old, YOU
     CHUNJING(SP?)of China.  I spotted her on the coverage of the '93
     Australian Nationals.  Back then she was only 12 and I thought she was
     quite impressive for her age.
           Also, in the magazines GYM STARS and INTERNATIONAL GYMNAST (some
     time back), it said that the young Chinese gymnast, Mo Huilan, is an
     orphan adopted by her coach.  Then in a recent letter to Gymn, someone
     said that Mo has a twin sister.  It also said stuff about her parents.
      Please tell me which one is right.  Thanks-


Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 15:37:00 -0600
Subject: Event finalists

     Hi everyone!

     I have a question for someone who knows more than me! How are event
     finalists decided when two or more gymnasts tie for 8th place? Is it
     based on previous rankings or on the all around? This wouldn't work
     all the time though, especially in the case of an unknown gymnast.

     In an old post someone asked about Dobre's famous pose. Is this her
     beautiful double stag handstand? In all the pics I have seen of her
     this pose seems to be most common.

     I really enjoy GYMN - keep those posts coming!



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 03:44:43 -0400
Subject: jo rhythmics in atlanta

ok-i know they are may 6-7 but does anyone know times and places????adrienne


Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 04:57:21 -0400
From:    ***@TIGER.HSC.EDU
Subject: VISA Challenge

Anyone have any info on the VISA Challenge?  I know there are still events
tomorrow, but any preliminary information?



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 10:33:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Event finalists

>      I have a question for someone who knows more than me! How are event
>      finalists decided when two or more gymnasts tie for 8th place? Is it
>      based on previous rankings or on the all around? This wouldn't work
>      all the time though, especially in the case of an unknown gymnast.

At least in women's, in meets like Worlds or Olympics, the gymnast higher in
the all-around gets to compete in finals (I think that means all-around
during prelims, not all-around finals).  So at Barcelona, Cristina
Bontas got to compete in BB finals over Luisa Portocarrero.  Which was a
travesty, because IMHO, Luisa's beam was much better.

This rule doesn't necessarily have to be followed at every meet.
Organizers of invites can decide to run things however they want.

>      In an old post someone asked about Dobre's famous pose. Is this her
>      beautiful double stag handstand? In all the pics I have seen of her
>      this pose seems to be most common.

Dobre's pose is the straddle V that was in the IG poster.  The double stag
handstands I remember are Silivas' and Mostepanova's.



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 09:45:56 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: PC Gymnastics

| New and old.  (Would that be something for Gymn's WWW page, Rachele?)

Sure -- if someone compiles an index of sorts (how to get the program,
name of the program, description, etc) then I'd be more than willing
to store it on ftp and create a link on the web pages.



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 10:11:19 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Re: PC [or MAC] Gymnastics

David asked:
| I'm wondering, is the USAG planning on a WWW home page?

USA Gymnastics has not officially announced plans to get a WWW home
page, but I would bet that since Delphi has signed an agreement with
Netscape, that a USA Gymnastics web page is in the future.  As soon as
one is announced, I can guarantee you that Gymners will be the second
to know (the first being USAGO! members, naturally).



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 10:18:26 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Unintended Consequence

Adriana wrote:
| On Sat, 22 Apr 1995, Mara wrote:
| > >"An unintended consequence of Title IX" -- the goal of the CGA is to speak
| > positively and non-confrontationally about men's gymnastics in relation to
| > money-making and women's sports.

| > I'm interested to hear other opinions, but I find this phrase *highly*
| > confrontational...

| I agree.  It sounds insincere to me.

I am interested to hear more opinions -- most people I talked to
thought this was good wording because the CGA does support Title IX
wholeheartedly, but not at the expense of established programs -- they
were hoping to convey that message by saing "unintended consequence"
-- sort of like "we know the intention of Title IX was not to cut down
men's sports, but unfortunately, this has been a consequence of Title

Please email me with your opinions on this if you have any -- do you
like it, if not, why exactly does it strike the wrong impression (if
you can put your finger on it) and do you have another suggestion,

Please reply to me directly on email ( rather than
posting to the list.  Thanks,



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 10:28:24 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Notes from the coaches' meetings

Chris said:
| The main goal now of the CollegiateGymnastics Association
| is to "ensure the future of the sport" but they still kept the nine man
| rule for regionals and nationals.  I think the nine man rule is  bad for
| the sport.  It limits the size of teams and the number of men who
| can do gymnastics.

This is true, but along those same lines, it creates more parity among
the teams that exist. When this rule was brought up at the meeting,
the "little fish" schools complained that if the powers that be
(Nebraska, Stanford, etc) were allowed to use 12 man lineups, then the
schools with fewer scholarships would have an even harder time
competing than they already do now.

| people who are cutting the teams (athletic directors and other
| administration) I would think a team of 20-25 people would have a
| stonger case than a team of 10 people.

A couple of the coaches said this too at the coaches meeting, and
someone (don't rmember who, but it's not important) piped up and said
that the _larger_ teams, surprisingly, were being seeked out at his
school because then an AD could drop just one sport yet save
substantially more money, whereas dropping gymnastics would mean one
less sport but little savings.  For example, the entire San Jose State
men's gymnastics program is run on $75,000 a year (including the
coach's salary) -- can we say "drop in bucket"? I'm not saying that
this is the situation at all schools, because obviously it's not or
men's gymnastics would be skyrocketing, but I'm just trying to point
out there are two sides (possibly more?) to this flat little coin.



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 11:14:03 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Unsubscribing

If you are going home for the summer and would like to unsubscribe
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That's it!  When you come back next year and want to resubscribe, just
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The beauty of a listserv...



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 11:42:38 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: NCAA Women's Scores

NCAA Women's Gymnastics Championships
University of Georgia
April 20-22, 1995

Results via the AP wire:

1, Jenny Hansen, Kentucky, 39.800
        (10.000, 9.900, 9.950, 9.950).
2, Agina Simpkins, Georgia, 39.475
        (9.950, 9.725, 9.900, 9.900).
3 (tie), Suzanne Metz, Utah, 39.400
        (9.925, 9.800, 9.800, 9.875);
  Amy Myerson, Florida, 39.400
        (9.900, 9.825, 9.825, 9.850); and
  Stella Umeh, UCLA, 39.400
        (9.800, 9.850, 9.825, 9.850).

Prelim Team Scores
Session I

1, Georgia, 196.825 (49.625, 48.950, 48.725, 49.550)
2, Michigan, 195.700 (49.450, 48.850, 48.600, 48.800)
3, Utah, 195.325 (48.950, 48.125, 49.125, 49.125)
4, LSU, 193.025 (48.625, 47.900, 47.850, 48.650)
5, Nebraska, 191.750 (48.600, 46.975, 47.750, 48.425)
6, West Virginia, 189.650 (48.375, 47.025, 46.500, 47.000)

Session II
1, UCLA, 196.375 (49.000, 49.150, 48.800, 49.425)
2, Alabama, 195.600 (49.200, 48.375, 48.650, 49.375)
3, Oregon State, 195.500 (48.900, 48.825, 48,725, 49.050)
4, Florida, 195.425 (49.300, 49.025, 48.775, 48.325)
5, Penn State, 194.150 (48.475, 48.575, 48.275, 48.825)
6, Brigham Young, 191.900 (48.575, 47.925, 47.100, 48.325)

Final Team Scores (aka "Super Six")
1, Utah 196.650 (49.050, 49.250, 49.100, 49.250.)
2, Alabama 196.425 (49.475, 49.000, 49.100, 48.850;)
   Michigan (tie) 196.425 (49.250, 49.025, 48.975, 39.175.)
4, UCLA 196.150 (49.025, 48.700, 49.250, 49.175.)
5, Georgia 196.075 (49.550, 48.800, 48.400, 49.325.)
6, Oregon St. 194.850 (48.700, 48.650, 49.200, 48.300.)

Individual Events

1, Jenny Hansen, Kentucky, 9.9750
2, Leah Brown, Georgia, 9.9125
3 (tie), Heather Kabnik, Michigan
   Tina Brinkman, Arizona State; 9.8750
5, Agina Simpkins, Georgia, 9.8250
6, Katie Freeland, Arizona State, 9.7375
7, Chrissy Vogel, Florida, 9.7250
8, Wendy Marshall, Michigan, 9.6250

1, Beth Wymer, Michigan, 9.950
2, Lori Strong, Georgia, 9.9250
3 (tie), Jenny Hansen, Kentucky;
   Kristen Guise, Florida;
   Kim Bonventure, Alabama;, 9.875
6 (tie), Stephanie Woods, Alabama;
   Elizabeth Crandell, Brigham Young;
   Stella Umeh, UCLA; 9.850
9, Leah Homma,, UCLA, 9.325
10, Heather Bennett, Oregon State, 9.225
11, Kareema Marrow, UCLA, 8.800

1, Jenny Hansen, Kentucky, 10.0
2 (tie), Kristen Guise, Florida;
   Stella Umen, UCLA;
   Megan Caudle, Utah; 9.900
5 (tie), Stepanie Woods, Alabama;
   Traci Sommer, Utah;, 9.875
7, Amy Myerson, Florida, 9.850
8 (tie), Wendy Marshall, Michigan;
   Lori Strong, Georgia; 9.825
10, Randi Miller, Oregon State, 9.800
11, Sandy Woolsey, Utah, 9.750
12, Deanne Droegemueller, Oregon State, 9.325
13, Agina Simpkins, Georgia, 9.300

1 (tie), Leslie Angeles, Georgia;
   Jenny Hansen, Kentucky;
   Stella Umeh, UCLA; 9.950
4 (tie), Leah Brown, Georgia;
   Aimee Trepanier, Utah; 9.925
6, Kareema Marrow, UCLA, 9.900
7 (tie), Agina Simpkins, Georgia;
   Kim Arnold, Georgia; 9.875
9 (tie), Merritt Booth, Alabama;
   Amy Smith, UCLA; 9.850
11, Meredith Willard, Alabama, 9.825



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 13:57:17 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: #1(2) GYMN-L Digest - 21 Apr 1995 to 22 Apr 1995

Lori Boettcher is a level 10 gymnast in Tamara's team.  She has been doing
very well and is training for this years nationals.  Is resopnse to the
decision to have only 2 people per country in the 96 olympics, I think it is
great for all the Former soviet union counrties. Has anyone heard of Elena
Vitrichenko?  She is from Belarussia and she trains under her mother Nina
Vitrichenko. She was 6th(?) at the European Championships, and she hasa great
chance to represent Belarussia in the olympics. Last summer Nina and Elena,
stayed at my house and trained with my team all summer.  it was a really
great expeience to train with, and get to know these two very powerful
influences in the sport of Rhythmic.  By the way, I am a level nine gymnast
on Illinois Ryhtmics in Wilmette Illinois, Under Irina Vdovets


Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 14:18:07 -0400
Subject: Compulsories.

I for one hope that the USGF maintains compoulsories at the sub elite level
and requjires that anyone who wishes to be an elite gymnast should be able to
do compulsories. They are not that hard and they do require that a gymnast
learn the "basics" correctly. I'ld hate to see a bunch of 12 yr olds trying to
do handspring fronts when they can't do a front handspring vault correctly.
Plus, it is a safety issue and a method of assuring that everyone has the
same basic abilities.


P.S. Does anyone actually know what happened to Elena Muckina, the Strasborg
1978 AA champion who was reported to be paralyzed? Did she ever come out and
say what happened and  how she is doing?


Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 16:22:13 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: event finalists

>the all-around gets to compete in finals (I think that means all-around
during prelims, not all-around finals).  So at Barcelona, Cristina
Bontas got to compete in BB finals over Luisa Portocarrero.  Which was a
travesty, because IMHO, Luisa's beam was much better.<

It was much better than Bontas, but I think it was Milosovici who replaced
Luisa.  Even more sad for Luisa, since Lavinia fell and ended up last!
 Personally, I don't see what the harm is in letting an extra person compete
in the event final.  I can see the problem if fifteen people tie for the
eighth spot, but really it is such a huge meet and a once in a lifetime
opportunity.  On top of that, breaking the tie based on all-around
performance is so stupid, considering it is only one event, and Luisa beat
(if my memory serves) Milo on optional beam in 1b.


Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 17:04:03 -0400
Subject: Re: event finalists

That it was Milo and not Bontas in a way is even worse -- how frightening
that Bontas was scored better than both Milo and Portocarrero.  Anyway,
the problem with using the optional score is that it might be the same.
But no reason not to use it, and if it *is* the same, then use all-around
as a second option.  I thought about the possibility of letting an extra
person compete, but looking through other results of Barcelona (this was a
long time ago, and I don't have them here to double-check), I think I
remember finding something like a five-way tie for eighth in men's
vault.  Maybe someone who has results handy can check that.



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 17:27:32 -0400
Subject: Mukhina

> P.S. Does anyone actually know what happened to Elena Muckina, the Strasborg
> 1978 AA champion who was reported to be paralyzed? Did she ever come out and
> say what happened and  how she is doing?

Mukhina injured her spinal cord doing a Thomas on floor during a practice
no too long before the '80 Olympics.  Yes, she is paralyzed, but I don't
know exactly at what level beyond that it was her neck (there can be very
big differences in function depending on exactly which vertebra(e) is
(are) affected, but all four limbs will be affected to some degree by a neck
injury).  The Soviet Union tried to cover it up and, as I recall,
even reported that she was walking, which was totally not true.  That
story was going around as late as 1989.  She graduated from the Institute
of Physical Culture or some such as a coach.  The USSR/Russia being the
oh-so accessible place that it is, she had to have instructors come to
her home (I think she lived with her grandmother?).  There were occasional
reports in IG and also a short article or interview several years ago.
I don't remember exactly what she was doing besides going on various
wild goose chases for a cure, which can happen in a place where there
isn't so much as a curb cut to let you cross the street, let alone have
a life (it happens even in places where there are more opportunities to
have a life) .  That's all I remember, or think I remember, anyway.  Any
corrections would be much appreciated, as would any more recent information.



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 16:20:59 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Comments on Event Finals (Men)

53rd Annual National Collegiate Men's Gymnastics Championships
Ohio State University
Columbus, OH
April 20-22, 1995
Event finals

Well, same story, I didn't get to see much of it!  Apologies in
advance for any errors because I'm doing this all by memory (I've lost
my notes!) and having only caught snatches of routines.

Floor was won by Jay Thornton who mounted with a layout Thomas and
then followed that in his second pass with a tucked Thomas.  The most
difficult routine was thrown by Brian Winkler (Mich) who mounted and
dismounted (me thinks) with layout full-ins (mount might have been
full-out, almost), and has a second pass of Arabian double front,
headspring, punch front with a half (nifty!).  Many guys put their
hands down on their tumbling passes (Winkler, Grace, Wiley) and so
basically the people who hit made All-American.  Josh Stein pulled in
the closest second of the night with his routine (9.85 to 9.8375).

Pommels, I didn't see hardly at all except to know that Yee, Landry,
and Durbin all hit great routines.  Durbin got a standing ovation for
his routine -- I have never seen a standing O for a pommel horse
routine!  Will wonders never cease.  Of course he was the highest hope
for OSU that night on pommels and OSU needed something to cheer about
after not making team finals.  Drew is a very clean gymnast with
handstands as nice as Jason CHristie's. (I just like a handstand that
sorta locks into place with no break in the shoulder line, I guess.

Rings was won by Temple's Dave Frank, which was especially sweet given
the near death of their program earlier this year.  His routine
included two Malteses and a double front with a half out dismount.  I
didn't see any rings routines, actually (I'm already familiar with
Frank's), so I can't really say a whole lot.  I think that Grace fell
on his butt for the dismount -- he had a slow start to the night.
Most of the guys who were in team finals the previous night looked
spent during event finals.

Vault -- Ian Bachrach vaulted a roundoff, 1/2 turn to horse, piked
front off.  Cool!  Josh Stein did a tucked version and butsu'd that,
as did many many other tired vaulters.  The hit percentage of this
event finals (overall, not just vault) was much lower than that of the
1993 Event finals I attended.  At any rate, Ian's vault was not
outstandingly high or far, but was certainly good in both departments,
and true to Stanford gymnastics he kept nice form.  Keith Wiley did
not have a clean landing (sort of a shuffle/hop backwards) and so
couldn't win with his otherwise outstanding Kas-full.

P-bars was taken by Richard Grace, who recovered from his slow start
of the night. This was his second consecutive title on pbars.  I
didn't get to see his routine but I remember that it included a
massive straddle cut to begin the routine; consecutive giant fulls
(not Diamadovs); and a cool Diamadov to one bar (1.25 twists).  I
didn't see any pbars routines so I can't tell you all much else (I
just remember Grace's routine from the previous night).

High bar was a disappointment because the level of gymnastics on that
event just wasn't nearly the same as my memory of it from 1993.  The
most releases done in sequence was two -- and it was a
Tkatchev-Gienger, which is pretty ho-hum by what I expect in NCAA
event finals.  Rick Kieffer did throw a Gaylord II -- nice! -- to win
the event.  Wrong-way Endos dominated high bar.  If Jamie Ellis had
made high bar finals to try out his full-twisting Kovacs, I probably
would have been more excited about high bar.  There was one triple
from Josh Stein -- if I remember right, it was butt on the ground.

Blaz Puljic (New Mexico) won two seconds -- pbars, high bar, but
unfortunately I didn't get to see either routine.  At any rate, this
year's meet was probably more relaxing for him than last year's, when
he competed at the worlds in Australia and then flew over to compete
at NCAA's the next day.

Yours in gymnastics,


Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 16:40:20 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: do two negatives make a positive?

Regarding the recent posts about negativity in Gymn:

As forum manager, I am taking a different approach to this issue than
previously, for two reasons.  For one, with the high volume of Gymn
lately, it is impossible for me to read each and every message and
evaluate it for compliance with Gymn guidelines. Two, with the ever-
increasing size of Gymn, I believe that we have a greater capability
to be self maintaining.

The tone of the forum should be determined by the members.  I set the
Gymn guidelines with the advice of George and other Gymn members --
but it's up to Gymn, not just George or me, to enforce them.  If a
serious problem occurs, George and I will step in and hopefully help
to solve the situation.  I rely on people like Robin and Ann Marie to
speak up (as they did) when they feel Gymn guidelines are being
compromised.  This is what it's all about folks -- if you don't like
what someone has to say, let them know. Keep it respectful and
tasteful, but speak your mind.

Personally, as a Gymn member, I applaud the post made by David Litwin
regarding the recent rudeness on Gymn. His post stated it exactly as I
and many other Gymners see it. That said, I'd like to respond to
several issues that were brought up in the discussion:

1. The "sheer hypocrisy" of Gymn members who say that gymnastics deserves
   more media coverage but then say that gymnasts shouldn't be subject
   to the same type of criticism as the other athletes in the sports
   spotlight, e.g. football.

   I think gymnasts should be subject to criticism, certainly.  Gymnastics
   is not a nice-nice sport where everyone gets patted on the head and then
   goes home (though it is portrayed that way on the television, for sure).

   As supporters of the sport we certainly have the right to analyze the
   faults of a gymnast's routine -- after all, this is precisely what a
   judge does every time a gymnast steps on the podium/mat.

   That said, I think that some of the criticism on Gymn has been phrased
   in rude, unproductive manners.

   A prevailing opinion seems to be that gymnastics needs to be like
   football to be considered a sport, and so this type of criticism is
   permissable.  Football does not define "sport" and I see no reason to
   compare the two.  Just because they don't share the same characteristics
   does not mean that gymnastics is not a sport, right?  Football is a sport
   where teams thrive on rivalries, the goal is to beat the opponent, and
   the focus is on winning.  Gymnastics is not like that, so why should we
   pretend?  For most gymnasts I know, they "win" if they hit 4/4 or 6/6.
   They aim to better their performance.  Some aim to win a medal,
   certainly, but gymnastics does not have the same personality as football
   and I like that just fine.

2. "If you don't like it, use the delete key."

   True.  If someone deletes a message because they don't have
   any interest in the content, that's ok.  But it's a pretty sad
   state of affairs when, on a forum like Gymn where friendliness/respect
   is one of its foundations, members need to use the delete key because
   other's rudeness, antagonism, etc interfere with discussion --
   that pretty much defeats the purpose of Gymn right there.  Gymn was
   established as a mailing list, and not a newsgroup or other type of
   forum, because we felt a mailing list was more conducive to productive
   discussion and a good signal-to-noise ratio.  Rude posts do nothing
   to enhance the forum and end up only spawning wasteful threads such
   as this one.

3. "We're criticizing the gymnastics, not the person."

   Please explain to me how the _person_ is not being criticized when
   statements are made to the effect that a gymnast is "content with
   mediocrity" and so forth...?  Sorry, no go.

4. Criticism on Gymn is not even a fraction of what you hear from
   people in the cheap seats, other parents, etc at a gymnastics meet.

   A _completely_ unfair comparison, imho.  Now if those same parents,
   fans, etc, would make those exact same comments in print in a
   national publication and sign their name to it, or would be recorded
   as saying that on national TV, etc -- that would be a

And, as a last caution, I cannot say enough that Gymn gets around and
people WILL read what you write.  Our readers are many many times the
number of subscribers on Gymn.  People can form ideas about you before
they even meet you, just by your words on Gymn.



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 17:47:01 -0500
Subject: Floor routines

Date sent:  23-APR-1995 17:43:09
*sigh* I just stumbled across a tape of last year's Hilton Challenge
and was watching some of the floor routines. I was amazed at the way
the scoring worked out at that meet, and others, such as last years
USA vs. Romania duel meet. Front tumbling, although equal in the code
of points, does not seem to merit high scores, even though they are
valued in the code of points.

In my opinion, if a routine is graceful, and the front trumbling is
done well, I'd rather see that routine score higher than someone like
Elena Piskun, who throws everything in the book, but without a whole
lot of grace (no, I'm not bashing Elena, there are others like her, too.)
In my mind, I think Shannon Miller should've placed ahead of Dawes
on floor at Nationals last summer. I don't say shoulda won, because I
would've given to Borden (who I think, when she hits, has the best floor
routine in the country, and possibly the world)

Other opinions?



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 16:07:17 -0700
From:    ***@MHS.MENDOCINO.K12.CA.US
Subject: Re: PC Gymnastics

>Ok, new topic.
>Idea:  Why don't we all put our heads together and try to come up with
>a list of gymnastics programs (games or otherwise) for the computer?
>New and old.  (Would that be something for Gymn's WWW page, Rachele?)

I love this idea. I've always hoped to find gymn games, although many of the
events would be almost impossible to translate to a simple video game .

>I recall Summer Games by Epyx which had women's vault as one of the
>eight sports events.  Who else has seen it?
>You had to stick a double Tsuk (tucked), hitting the board in the right
>spot and pushing off the horse at the right angle in order to get a 10.0.
>That's the only vault that would score a ten (not even a double front).

I had this game and played it to death. It was actually quite fun and a
challenge. It wasn't like some games where you get the trick and then it's
too easy. It would have been more exciting if there were more vaults to try.
I also only had the commodore version.

>I believe Summer Games II has rings as well as uneven bars (?!?!?) but I've
>never seen/tried it.

I played a Nintendo olympic video game briefly at someone's house that had
high bar. I could tell it would take a while to get the hang of it, because
the only tricks I could do were simple and happened totally by mistake.

The only other game I've found that has anything similar to gymn is ToeJam &
Earl: Panic on Funkotron, but this is not for PC either (Sega). There are
large springy fungus you can bounce on and do forward and backward flips,
layed-out or tucked. It seems that 4 or 5 is the most you can do and still
land on your feet, although you can also bounce on your stomach or back.
There are even a couple of fungus that have judges by them and they'll score
you and give you bonus points for fancy tricks. You can defy physics by
doing a couple of flips in one direction and then reversing and going the
other way, all in the air. Wouldn't this be fun if it were possible?
Wouldn't you love to see Kharkov throw a back/front/back dismount?



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 16:07:31 -0700
From:    ***@MHS.MENDOCINO.K12.CA.US
Subject: Re: Trivia Answers #28 - Beam and PH

>8. In '83 there was a protest to raise the eventual World PH's Champion
>optional score. Who was the athlete, what was the original score, and
> what was it raised to?
>Dmitri Bilozerchev 9.95 to 10.0 In finals he, and four others, scored 10.0.
>If the protest had not been honored and the optional score not raised it
>would have resulted in a 3 way tie for first with Guczoghy (HUN) and Li
>Xiaping (CHN).

I'm totally confused by this. Do you mean he and four others scored 10's in
the AA finals? If five people scored 10's in the EVENT finals, that would
obviously be a five-way tie for first. But Bilozerchev was the sole
champion, right? I'm just confused about where these five 10's were given.



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 16:30:44 -0700
From:    ***@MHS.MENDOCINO.K12.CA.US
Subject: Re: Mukhina

>Mukhina injured her spinal cord doing a Thomas on floor during a practice

I actually heard on some TV special a couple of years ago that she fell from
UB during an un-supervised practice. The narrator also mentioned that she
had been warned not to practice alone. I have no idea how accurate it was
but there was a long segment on her and they interviewed her quite a bit. I
don't know if she backed up that version of the story though.



Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 20:27:35 -0400
From:    ***@CYKICK.JVNC.NET
Subject: Re: SI slams rhythmic gymnastics

Amanda writes:
>     There is a reference to rsg in this week's _Sports Illustrated_ (with
>Joe and family on cover).  It is in the "Point After" column on the last
>page, by our favorite EM "I know nothing about gymnastics but cover it anyway
>and call myself a journalist" Swift, author of the American Cup article.
> Anyway he is mentioning the proposed Olympic sport of ballroom dancing.  The
>headline is "Callng Arthur Murray: Ballroom dancing has as much right to be
>in th Olympics as, say, rhythmic gymnastics."  Later he says, "Let then make
>room (for the sport) by throwing out synchronized swimming and rhythmic
>gymnastics, two ridiculous activities."
>Any comments?

Well, if you watched the Sports Illustrated feature about rodeo clowns on
"Wide World of Sports" a few months ago, you might recognize the author (Ed
Swift) as the one who ended up trying out "life in the barrel."  Perhaps he
got jostled in the barrel a few times too many?  ;-)

Yes, in case you haven't tried it, ballroom dancing HAS as much right to be
contested in the Olympic Games as such events as rhythmic gymnastics and
synchronized swimming.  They ALL require participants to be in equally
great shape in order to be done well.  Ya don't believe it?  Take a look at
the balance and flexibility requirements for some of those dances sometime!

BTW, SI is on CompuServe in case you want to send opinions...
(Who never knew of knee problems until attempting to learn samba - sigh!)


Date:    Sun, 23 Apr 1995 18:54:01 -0600
Subject: Cool idea (well I think so!)

Hi again,

Wouldn't it be far out if the Code was available on CD-ROM?

I'm talkin' graphics, too, whereby you could input the name or
number of an element and see a drawing and/or animation of the skill.
(I vote for Jim Stephenson's drawings, they're the best.)

And better yet, be able to view multiple elements in combination ...
create bar routines, wild tumbling passes, etc.

Any graphics geniuses out there with some time on their hands?! ;)

Just rambling...



Date:    Mon, 24 Apr 1995 11:13:47 +1000
From:    ***@STUDENT.GU.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: Government Enquiry into AIS

Hi everyone,

Last Tuesday a independant federal government inquiry was called, into
allegations of mental and physical child abuse, by Ju Ping Tian and other
coaches at the AIS in Canberra.  Since then the media, which doesn't find
time to cover gymnastics at any other time, has jumped on the story and
it has recieved mass publicity on national current affairs programs and
made page three of National newspapers.

The allegations were made anonymously, in letters, by parents of girls who
have trained at the AIS.  The allegations include:

- Girls called fat and lazy and publicly humiliated if they gained weight.

- Shown how to vomit thier food including normal meals.

- Forced to go to the sauna fully clothed to lose weight.

- Forced to train up to 40 hours a week.

- Told they were liars, cheats, sluts and thieves.

- Told the only reason they were at the AIS was because their parents
didn't want them.

Where do I begin?!  These allegations are not new, a few 'failures'
have attacked the AIS in the past (two girls who trained at the AIS
for short periods of time in the mid-late 80's are sueing the AIS
becuase they now suffer from Anorexia and blame Ju Ping - but
that's another story!)  Following are some interviews that have been done in
the last few days, with gymnasts, coaches, parents and officials.  Hope
this will intrest some of you.

Mike Carlton - AIS assistant coach for several years.

"Basically you go and put on heavy clothing and run in the sauna, all you
lose it water, that's it.  I just think it's ridiculous, absolutely
ridiculous.  All it does, it gets the kids pretty agitated about what's
going on, makes them more paranoid about weight issues"

So he quit - "I didn't want to be there, you know, we've got coaches
screaming at kids, and I'd get pretty fed up with that.  You know the
kids aren't able to perform that, and just told 'are you lazy' or
whatever, 'you have to work harder at it continuously, continuously,
continuously'.  Then that turns into something where it stats, I belive
to degrade the individual.  You've got to be realistic in the process,
and it comes accross at the moment, it seems to me that the money factor
and the medal factor take precedents over the human factor and that
concerns me alot."

Jim Fergusson, executive director of the Australian Sports Commision
(which overseas the AIS).

"If you're a coach of a potential medal winner in the Olympic Games,
you're gunna be a pretty tough and focussed person."

"The inquiry will set these alligations to rest, and we will then be
able, to get on with our task of training gymnasts to represent Australia"

Jim Barry, president of the AGF, and vice president of the FIG.

"If any of the alligations are true, they have to be dealt with, I don't
have a problem with that.  But what I want to do is clear the good name
of the AIS."

Monique Allen, who trained at the AIS for eight years under Ju Ping, and
is a part time coach there.  (19th AA at Barcelona)

"Ju Ping has been like my second mum.  I've grown up with her since I was
12 to 20.  She is extreamily hard but she is also very soft.  I have an
enormous amount of respect for Ju Ping.  It's only because she cares that
she is so hard.  The people who are making these alligations don't
understand what gymnastics is all about."

"There have been some cruel allegations, and most of them have been

Kylie Shadbolt, who also trained at the AIS for eight years, and has
coached full time there for the past 14 months.  (36th AA at Barcelona)

"If I was abused, do you think I would come back?  Ju Ping never laid a
hand on me except to hug me.  The program is a part of me.  I'm really
angry.  This is my second family and if lies are said aobut your family
of course you get upset.  Ju Ping was like a second mum.  She was there
for most of my life.  People who are making the allegations don't know Ju
Ping.  No one under her training has spoken out."

"They would have been whinging if we hadn't done any good, and because we
have they want to knock us down.  They would hve complained if we were
not in the top 12 and did not make the Olympics.  Does anyone get
anywhere if they don't work hard?  If it was easy, everyone would be
Olympic gymnasts.  It's a tough sport because of what you have to achieve
at a young age.  You are considered a grandmother at age 18."

Courtney Hamilton, age 10, who went to the AIS on a schoralship.

"I saw them hitting some of the people.  Just being screamed at, and
if they didn't do something properly, they'd make them do like 100
something in a row.  I really wanted to go to
the Olympics, even if I didn't win, but I'd rather be happy and just do
what I love doing, and if I'm away, I'll be unhappy all the time."

Courtney's Mother, Karen.

"They'd be like, made to do extra things, and just screamed at and made
to sit in the sauna for an hour or something.  And she (courtney) was
jsut terrified to eat."

She took her daughter out of the AIS, but not without an fight from Ju Ping.

"Yes, Ju Ping, sort of had hold of Courtney, and I was trying to get hold
of her as well, it was, yeah, it was sort of a tug of war, I suppose."

Heather Cleland, mother of 10 year old Melinda who went to the AIS at 9,
and now trains at the Victorian institute of Sport.

"Melinda was put in an advanced group two to three years older than her
and they were alot stronger.  Melinda didn't want to do gymnastics when
she was sent back (from Canberra - she was sent home for not showing
enough commitment).  From the first day, they were weighed twice a day
and forced to train 35 to 40 hours a week.  They were called fat and lazy
no matter how hard they tried to meet the standards; it seemed it was
never good enough."

On the positive side, many parents are standing behind the programme,
and say their children haven't given any indication of being mistreated,
and don't substantiate anything of what's being said.

So, what's this all about?  (For those of you who haven't deleted this
already or aren't bored to death!)

It's all about inter politics and the fact that the state institutes
didn't get their own way about the training camp situation which I posted
about a few weeks ago.  So now they're just trying to discredit the
AIS & Ju Ping.  Which is why the AIS and Ju Ping isn't
concerned.  They know that the inquiry isn't going to find anything,
(after all the gym has a large viewing area which is always open to the
public, and tourist groups are constantly flooding through, so if there
was abuse going on, it would have been picked up long before now!)

So although I could post forever on the amount of information i've
collected in the last few days.  I'll sign off with one last quote, and
hope I've given you enough information, from both sides, to be able to draw
your own conclusions......

Kay Mahlook, Victorian Gymnastics Association.

"Unless the AGF's treatment of the issue of relocation is brought to some
conciliated end, then this sport is doomed, perhaps."



End of GYMN-L Digest - 22 Apr 1995 to 23 Apr 1995 - Special issue