GYMN-L Digest - 20 Apr 1995 to 21 Apr 1995 - Special issue

There are 33 messages totalling 1017 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. new subscriber (7)
  2. SI slams rhythmic gymnastics (2)
  3. back tuck sideways on beam
  4. Negativity (3)
  5. NCAA Men's Champs: Team prelims -- AA finals (3)
  6. Fwd: Re: Negativity
  7. subject...
  8. Atlanta Olympics
  9. NCAA Nationals
 10. Mo Huilan
 11. Ann Marie's post
 12. Longer FX routines
 13. Junior Compulsaries
 14. SI Article
 15. Rhythmic Gymnastics
 16. Olympic Specials
 17. SI slams R-mics (suck eggs SI)
 18. Negativity/Hillary Grivich
 19. Zmeskal's vaults
 20. triple back off unevens
 21. Improving Floor.
 22. Trivia Answers #28 - Beam and PH


Date:    Thu, 20 Apr 1995 23:06:59 -0400
Subject: Re: new subscriber

> behind on current gymnastics.  I know that there have been a few men who
> have been able to throw a triple back, but I was wondering if there have
> been any women either on floor or off bars who have been able to do it.
> With the way gymnastics has changed just in the last couple of years, I
> wouldn't be too surprised if there have been some women.  But I know that
> it is a terribly difficult move.

Not dumb at all!  Natalia Laschenova was rumored to have worked a
triple on FX, but no woman I know of has ever thrown it in a meet.  I
think Dina Kochetkova used to do a triple off bars (or was it
Fabrichnova?), and wasn't there recently a post here saying someone
else did it too?



Date:    Thu, 20 Apr 1995 23:35:41 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: SI slams rhythmic gymnastics

On Wed, 19 Apr 1995, ***@AOL.COM writes,
The [SI] headline is "Callng Arthur Murray: Ballroom dancing has as much
right to be in th Olympics as, say, rhythmic gymnastics."  Later he says,
"Let then make room (for the sport) by throwing out synchronized swimming and
rhythmic gymnastics, two ridiculous activities."
Any comments?

Sure, I've got some comments.  Somebody needs to hit this man in the head
with a large brick!  RSG requires as much or more physical ability than any
other sport.  Rhythmic gymnasts must have balance, grace, coordination, and
strength throughout an incredible range of motion.  What other sport requires
all that?  I suppose the author thinks that it's much more respectable to be
able to throw a ball through a basket.  What is "ridiculous" is that people
who are good at that make millions of dollars, while true athletes/artists
constantly have to struggle to justify their existance.  Surely, if RSG was
raking in tons of money, we wouldn't be hearing a peep out of this guy.  It's
bad enough that SI neglects to adaquately cover RSG.  They're really crossing
the line by trying to squash a sport that many people love and respect.  And,
as for Ballroom Dancing...  why not?



Date:    Thu, 20 Apr 1995 23:57:13 -18521200
Subject: back tuck sideways on beam

        Regarding the back tuck across the beam,
I seem to remember a Soviet gymnast doing it in
the 80's (Schudinova, Yudina, or Koval?), since
I remember seeing the sequence in IG.
        With the triple back on floor, Natalia
Laschenova used to practice it on the tumbling
strip.  I'm not sure if she ever did it on the
regular floor ex mat.



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 00:59:28 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Negativity

In regards to negativity on GYMN (especially the recent Grivich post),
I would just like to say that I feel that if even only one person is
offended by a post, that is one too many.  Is GYMN a free-for-all, or
are there certain, perhaps unwritten, rules?  I'd be interested to
hear from some of the original members of GYMN.  I think people need
to remember to be careful with how they word their posts.
 On a computer, human emotion gets lost and it is often hard to tell
whether people are intentionally being mean or just stating something.
It's not honest critique that offends people--after all, this is a
discussion group.  However, some people make the argument that they
can say whatever they like about a gymnast's performance because it's
not an attack on them.  However, how do you think Hilary would have
felt if she had read that post?  Maybe she did--who knows?  When a
person puts as much time and effort into something the way these
gymnasts have, it IS personal.  Can't we discuss someone's bad toe
point, for example, without using it as a forum to attack her hair,
leotard, etc?  That's just my opinion.  What do the rest of you think?
I'd especially love to hear from some of the "lurkers"!

Ann Marie


Date:    Thu, 20 Apr 1995 23:33:57 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: NCAA Men's Champs: Team prelims -- AA finals

Many thanks to Mayland for giving me a text file of the scores!

53rd Annual National Collegiate Men's Gymnastics Championships
Ohio State University
Columbus, OH
April 20-22, 1995
(top three advance to team finals tomorrow night)

1. Univ. of Nebraska, 230.425
2. Stanford Univ., 230.075
3. Penn State Univ., 228.900
4. Univ. of Oklahoma, 228.725
tie Ohio State Univ., 228.725
6. Univ. of Iowa, 227.925

                     FX   PH    R    V   PB   HB  TOTAL
 1. Richard Grace   9825 9675 9800 9725 9700 9600 58.325 Univ. of Nebraska
 2. Darren Elg      9900 9700 9650 9350 9625 9750 57.975 Brigham Young Univ.
 3. Josh Stein      9825 9800 9800 9450 9200 9700 57.775 Stanford Univ.
 4. Blaine Wilson   9675 9550 9900 9400 9600 9650 57.775 Ohio State Univ.
 5. Blaz Puljic     9450 9825 9700 9250 9700 9775 57.700 Univ. of New Mexico
 6. Jeremy Killen   9750 9550 9450 9450 9400 9800 57.400 Univ. of Oklahoma
 7. Brian Yee       9525 9800 9550 9700 9200 9550 57.325 Univ. of Minnesota
 8. Jason Christie  9700 9650 9675 9100 9450 9725 57.300 Univ. of Nebraska
 9. Danny Akerman   9550 9750 9450 9250 9600 9450 57.050 Temple Univ.
10. Keith Wiley     9875 9150 9400 9750 9500 9300 56.975 Stanford Univ.
11. Rick Kieffer    9650 8800 9700 9450 9550 9800 56.950 Univ. of Nebraska
12. Drew Durbin     9050 9900 9625 9250 9725 9400 56.950 Ohio State Univ.
13. Casey Bryan     9725 9250 9200 9300 9600 9700 56.775 Univ. of Oklahoma
14. Tyler Vogt      9600 9400 9700 9200 9500 9100 56.500 Univ. of Iowa
15. Tony Pansy      9650 8250 9800 9250 9700 9650 56.300 Penn State Univ.
16. Josh Birckelbaw 9450 9700 9625 9250 8850 9400 56.275 UC Berkley
17. Jay Thornton    9825 9000 9550 8350 9800 9625 56.150 Univ. of Iowa
18. Lee Ricketts    9400 9525 9050 9100 9350 9650 56.075 Penn State Univ.
19. Dan Fink        9550 8350 9700 9200 9450 9525 55.775 Univ. of Oklahoma
20. Steve Marshall  9200 8750 9300 9500 9450 9550 55.750 Army
21. Brandy Wood     9575 9350 9650 8800 9450 8750 55.575 Penn State Univ.
22. Jamie Ellis     9600 9100 9000 9100 9650 7300 53.750 Stanford Univ.

Individual Event Qualifiers:

1. Darren Elg, BYU, 9.90
2. Keith Wiley, Stanford, 9.875
3. Daniel Stover, Oklahoma, 9.85
4t. Jay Thornton, Iowa, 9.825
4t. Richard Grace, Nebraska, 9.825
4t. Josh Stein, Stanford, 9.825
7. Brian Winkler, Michigan, 9.80
8t. Jeremy Killen, Oklahoma, 9.75
8t. Darin Gerlach, Temple, 9.75

Pommel Horse
1. Drew Durbin, Ohio, 9.90
2t. Jeremiah Landry, Illinois, 9.825
2t. Blaz Puljic, New Mexico, 9.825
4t. Brian Yee, Minnesota, 9.80
4t. Kendall Scheiss, New Mexico, 9.80
4t. Josh Stein, Stanford, 9.80
7. Jeff Kraft, Western Michigan, 9.775
8. Danny Akerman, Temple, 9.75

1. Blaine Wilson, Ohio, 9.90
2. Dave Frank, Temple, 9.85
3. Bryan Fox, Cal Berkley, 9.825
4t. Kevin Schwartz, UMass, 9.80
4t. Tony Pansy, Penn State, 9.80
4t. Richard Grace, Nebraska, 9.80
4t. Josh Stein, Stanford, 9.80
8t. Dave Eckert, Ohio, 9.775
8t. Kenzo Koshimura, BYU, 9.775
8t. Andrew Manson, Stanford, 9.775

1. Keith Wiley, Stanford, 9.75
2. Richard Grace, Nebraska, 9.725
3. Brian Yee, Minnesota, 9.70
4t. Ian Bachrach, Stanford, 9.50
4t. Steve Marshall, Army, 9.50
4t. Colby VanCleve, Minnesota, 9.50
7t. Josh Stein, Stanford, 9.45
7t. Neil Niemi, Ohio, 9.45
7t. Jeremy Killen, Oklahoma, 9.45
7t. Sebronzik Wright, William and Mary, 9.45
7t. Ofri Porat, Syracuse, 9.45
7t. Rick Kieffer, Nebraska, 9.45

Parallel Bars
1. Jay Thornton, Iowa, 9.80
2. Tom Ellefson, Penn State, 9.75
3. Drew Durbin, Ohio, 9.725
4t. Richard Grace, Nebraska, 9.70
4t. Tony Pansy, Penn State, 9.70
4t. Blaz Puljic, New Mexico, 9.70
7t. Jamie Ellis, Stanford, 9.65
7t. Dave Eckert, Ohio, 9.65
7t. Gary Thagard, New Mexico, 9.65

High Bar
1. Rick Kieffer, Nebraska, 9.80
2. Jeremy Killen, Oklahoma, 9.80
3. Blaz Puljic, New Mexico, 9.775
4t. Darren Elg, BYU, 9.75
4t. Carl Imhauser, Temple, 9.750
6t. Jason Christie, Nebraska, 9.725
6t. Dubie Bader, Temple, 9.725
8t. Josh Stein, Stanford, 9.70
8t. Casey Bryan, Oklahoma, 9.70
8t. Aaron Basham, Oklahoma, 9.70

Men who qualified for more than one event final:

Five (!)
Josh Stein, Stanford

Richard Grace, Nebraska

Jeremy Killen, Oklahoma
Blaz Puljic, New Mexico

Tony Pansy, Penn State
Rick Kieffer, Nebraska
Keith Wiley, Stanford
Jay Thornton, Iowa
Drew Durbin, Ohio
Dave Eckert, Ohio
Darren Elg, BYU
Brian Yee, Minnesota

Notable notes:
Nebraska, despite compiling the highest team total, did not win any
event!  Weird.  But they looked awesome.  They hit their first routine
and then never looked back.  Stanford was equally outstanding in
overall gymnastic quality -- in fact probably more so as I think
Stanford leads the collegiate ranks for innovative routines -- but
they had nine falls this night.

The highest score of the meet was 9.90, achieved by Darren Elg on
floor, Blaine Wilson on rings, and Drew Durbin on pommels.

Jason Christie of Nebraska has got a really pretty handstand.

Most individual qualifiers to Nationals: six -- both Cal Berkeley and
New Mexico.  Next was Temple with five.

Lots of teams with red on today: Nebraska, Stanford, Oklahoma, Ohio,
New Mexico, Temple.

My biggest "WOW" of the competition was Keith Wiley of Stanford on
vault.  As one person put it, that vault (I think a Kas, not sure)
dropped right out of the sky.  It was just GORGEOUS.  I think Keith
Wiley was my favorite gymnast there tonight -- a real eye catcher.

Sorry, I didn't catch much of the meet because I was a volunteer
during the competition.  I will be able to see more tomorrow and can
hopefully write down some more detailed impressions and some of those
cool combinations.



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 00:32:47 -0700
From:    ***@SEATTLEU.EDU
Subject: Re: new subscriber

I have seen a video of some soviet gymnast from about three years ago
working triple backs off the unevens.  It was pretty cool to see a woman
do it , but I tell you it was pretty nasty looking.  These girls had very
nasty looking giants (I suppose you have to do this sort of giant to build
the speed) and the cowboy position to the absolute maximum.


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 09:43:14 MET
From:    ***@SEPA.TUDELFT.NL
Subject: Re: new subscriber

Re to triple back on Floor

Olga Chudina can do a perfect triple back on floor.  (she even did it in
competition, but not in international meets)

Many of the girls in the former Soviet Union do triples in training.
Laschenova was one of them.

But no one managed to do one like Chudina's



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 04:11:33 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Fwd: Re: Negativity

Forwarded message:
Subj:    Re: Negativity
Date:    95-04-21 04:09:41 EDT

GYMN is hardly a free-for-all, and our hosts make sure that anyone who
goes too far beyond the bounds of decency is reigned in.

However, I have said it before and I will say it again. Any performer
who chooses to place themselves or their work in the public eye should
be prepared for some criticism, constructive and otherwise. That's the
nature of the beast. And as to withholding such criticism from
children, phoey. I believe in protecting children from a very great
deal, but when they and their parents/guardians decide that these
children are going to step in front of a group of people and perform,
they have crossed the line.

Apart from criticism that is purely slanderous, or that which is based
solely on the race, creed, color, religion, national origin, or sexual
preference or the subject, I would say that this forum has leeway
enough for everyone to make their opinions known.

For those who want a sanitized, opinion-free place on the net to
discuss gymnastics, the USAG provides such a forum. In my experience,
however (and Susan can attest to this) the criticism you hear in this
forum at its worst is much milder than what can be heard in the cheap
seats at any major gymnastics meet. And, by the way, a darned sight
milder than the nastiness I have heard coming from the mouths of some
parents of club-level gymnasts at meets AND workouts.

I think the current tone on GYMN is just fine, and well within keeping
of the FAQ. (When in doubt, RTFM, right?)  ;-)



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 11:25:14 +0100
From:    ***@VNET.ATEA.BE
Subject: subject...

Hi everybody,

My name is Erik and I'm writing you from Belgium. At the
moment, my only connection to the internet is an e-mail gateway at my
employer's. Therefor I can't spend too much time writing e-mails. I'm
still working on a proper introduction of myself and on some questions
for which I hope to find the answers through the GYMN-list. Expect to
read them one of these days.

The reason I'm already sending this mail is because I read something
on another list (Edupage) which might be of interest to lots of you:
the Atlanta Olympics have a WWW-page !
Unfortunately I'm not able to access it myself. If anyone can and if
he or she finds something of interest for the other GYMNers, I think
it would be nice to report about it on GYMN.

I included the original message hereunder:

*** included message ***
> ***************************************************************
> Edupage, a summary of news items on information technology, is provided
> three times each week as a service by Educom -- a Washington, D.C.-based
> consortium of leading colleges and universities seeking to transform
> education through the use of information technology.
> ***************************************************************
*** other subjects removed ***
> The new WWW page <> contains "The Guide to
> the 1996 Olympic Games."  (Atlanta Journal-Constitution 4/11/95 D1)
*** other subjects removed ***
*** end included message ***

See you on GYMN,



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 11:38:44 +0100
From:    ***@VNET.ATEA.BE
Subject: Atlanta Olympics

I forgot to fill in the subject line on my previous e-mail.
It should have read 'Atlanta Olympics'.
Sorry for the inconvenience.



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 09:27:47 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: NCAA Nationals

Does anyone know when NCAA women's nationals will be televised,if at all?


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 14:34:35 +0100
From:    ***@PHARM.LON.AC.UK
Subject: Re: new subscriber

I heard that Lashenova trained it on floor, but never competed it (to my
knowledge).  Knowing some of her double tucks, it was probably high, but



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 10:26:30 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: SI slams rhythmic gymnastics

After several months of sitting back watching Jim post messages and replies,
I finally have a good reason to make a post!

First of all, I didn't know we had so many interested in Rhythmic Gymnastics
here.  After working as a dance coach in an artistic club, our owner decieded
to add a Rhythmic program.  I thought the idea was great, the program was
given to me to run, because of my intense dance background as well as 16
years of gymnastics experience.

After having the program running for six months, I had 6 students.

The bad part of all of this is the other coachs', the parents, and the
artistic girls in the gym. Our head coach constently "picks" on the
rhythmic girls. Telling them how easy Rhythmic is, and how the are
taking the easy way out. The parents have told me that my girls have
to much fun and not enough work. One parent even asked when I was
going to put up the "toys" and teach my girls something! My reply was
"I will put away the balls, ribbons and hoops when artistic gives up
the beam, vault and bars! After all weren't they just "toys"!. " And
the other gymnasts in the club, one level 8 artistic inpaticual, loves
to pick on the rhythmic group. I had one coach, the beginners coach
make the foll owing statement, "Lets give all the really "big' girls
to rhythmic, they don't do anything really."  The girl that she was
referring to was a 7 year old that has several medical problems and is
overweight because of them. I love kids and would take her in my class
anytime, but the remark upset the parents of the child greatly. Her
mother put her in the beginning class on the advise oh her doctor to
help her with her weight control.

Now the moral of the above story. All but one of my girls have quit rhythmic.
The only one to stay with it, was my daughter. For a while, I thought that
our program could make it. The girls were tough, telling the artistic girls "
If Rhythmic were easy, the would call it Artistic".

So you see the problem is wide spread. Not only do Rhythmic gymasts and
coachs, have to deal with people like SI, we also have the same problems in
the gym.

Let me add on more thing, when I started coaching dance, I ran into much of
the same problems.  Some parents wanted classicial ballet, others wanted
"gymnastics dance". And ballet was often low rated. The gymnasts would
complain constantly in my classes about how the hated dance and saw no reason
for it.

While I know that this type of problem does not happen in all the gyms, it
has been enough to make me stop coaching anyone except my daughter.  The
moral of the story is that gymnastics and sports in general are cut throat.
They don't like change and they don't like any other sport.

I believe that people have the right to whatever sport they choose and should
not be put down because of it. I love artistic gymnastics as well as rhythmic
gymnastics, but I would love to dance and play football too!

My .02 worth,
thanks for reading or deleting! :)


Date:    Thu, 20 Apr 1995 14:41:45 -0400
From:    ***@ZEUS.TOWSON.EDU
Subject: Mo Huilan

        I read the bio on Mo that was posted a couple of days ago.  I was
wondering if anyone had anymore interesting tidbits to add about her.  I
saw her at Brisbane last spring, and she is incrediable.  Her Gaylord on
the uneven bars is simply a majestical thing to see in person.  She is
poised to be a factor in Atlanta.

The Peach has always been my favorite fruit.
Atlanta is nearing!



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 11:06:32 -0500
Subject: Ann Marie's post

I am generally one of the lurkers and wanted to respond to Ann Marie's
comments about the "trashing" of gymnasts.  I also believe that their
is a fine line between constructive criticism and personal attacks.  I
think that in some cases, the critiques on this forum have crossed
that line.  The gymnasts may not be perfect, but they are still good
enough to be some of the best in the world (Hillary Grivich included).
As a college professor, I know all about criticizing other people's
work and this criticism is an important part of acadmics as is it an
important part of athletics.  We must continually try to improve the
sport.  Where would women's gymnastics in the US be without coaches
and others constantly criticizing and trying to make our athletes

I have particularly noticed some strong undercurrents in the posts
about Zmeskal and Miller.  Obviously, there are a number of people who
like Kim or SHannon (both gymnastically and personally), but I'm not
sure there are many who really like both.  Both are world caliber
athletes.  They may have peaked at different times, but both are
champions.  They did what worked best for them.  I sometimes wonder if
some of the comments on GYMN reflect more of a dislike for the
athlete's coach rather than the athlete herself.  I must admit myself
that it look a long time for me to warm up to Shannon Miller as a
gymnast because I don't care very much for Nunno.  Anyway, that's my
two cents.  I hope that we can continue to focus more of the gymnasts'
skills and abilities rather than on their personalities.  I agree that
no world class athlete should be shielded from criticism simply
because of their age.  However, I also know that we can't necessarily
fault some of these girls for character flaws or occassional
immaturity--after all, they are teenagers.



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 08:06:56 PDT
Subject: Re: Negativity

> That's just my opinion.  What do the rest of you think?  I'd especially love
> to hear from some of the "lurkers"!
> Ann Marie

OK, I guess you could call me a lurker.  I have been watching this
list for a few weeks and sometimes I like it and sometimes I think
that people are so caught up in the ideal of perfection that they
forget that each gymnast (and everyone else) is a whole person.  We
cannot separate the person out of the routines.

Now, for who I am and why I am here.  I have two daughters in
gymnastics.  They are 1. 10 and competing Level 5 and 2. almost 7,
working Level 4 and the strongest kid I have personally ever seen (if
she can learn some grace she's going places).  I have spent the last 5
years in the gym watching while mine were in class - only in the last
1 1/2 years have I been able to leave while the younger one practiced.
I have seen a lot of girls at different levels work individual skills
and each one approaches it in a different way and with a different
level of drive and determination.

My older daughter keeps me focused on the importance of the whole
person.  She has an attitude that she will do her best, hopefully
improving (which she does, although slower than her teammates) and if
she does better, great.  If she doesn't, she will next time.  No big
deal.  But don't you dare even mention the word *quit* - she'll be all
over you.  As a very competitive person myself (although athletics is
not my arena), this laid-back attitude was very new and something I
had to think about.  I am very proud to have a daughter who is so well
grounded at 10 years old.  Now, if it only lasts into those teen

Gymn Mom


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 09:19:50 PDT
From:    ***@MCM.COM
Subject: Re: NCAA Men's Champs: Team prelims -- AA finals

Thank you Rachele for the very prompt report of the results.  I just
wanted to note that the top two teams are from the West.  I remember
after regionals, someone noted that if the top six scores were looked
at, then Temple would have gone.  This is yet another example of
judging bias.  Apparently the judges is some areas boost scores up,
whether knowingly or not.  If the selection were to be completely
fair, I believe four or even five teams from the west deserved to go.
And I predict that the team finals will just be a showdown between the
two west teams.  And just like when nationals were in New Mexico, I
believe Stanford will win it all with more outstanding gymnastics.



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 13:30:35 -0400
From:    ***@ACS.BU.EDU
Subject: Re: new subscriber

Hi thanks for the info!!


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 13:32:01 -0400
From:    ***@ACS.BU.EDU
Subject: Re: new subscriber

Yeah, I can imagine, but just to be ABLE to do it is an accomplishment


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 13:34:29 -0400
From:    ***@ACS.BU.EDU
Subject: Re: new subscriber

Thanks. That's really interesting!!  I would love to see someone do it in
a meet, but that would require quite a lot of energy, I'm sure.  What is
it worth?


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 20:18:20 +0200
From:    ***@MAIL.LSS.CO.ZA
Subject: Re: Longer FX routines

Please don't let anyone make the floor routines longer!
I get exhausted doing the normal length routine!


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 20:24:10 +0200
From:    ***@MAIL.LSS.CO.ZA
Subject: Junior Compulsaries

Could someone please tell me what the junior compulsary routines are like in
the U.S.A and rest of the world. Are they the same as in South Africa? Here
they almost the same as the senior routines but a little shorter and easier.
e.g Bar-kip, handstand half turn, clear circle handstand, kip, squat on,
long kip, handstand, clear circle handstand, back straddle handstand,
kip, squat on, long kip, handstand, giant, shoot front.


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 15:04:10 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: SI Article

I haven't read the SI article, but was wondering--were the authors comments
made in an article or an editorial?  Either way, they're horrible, but if it
was part of an article, I'm shocked his editor let it go to print!  Was this
the same guy who said that the 1992 Women's Olympic team was going to
celebrate their bronze medal by eating a cornflake?  I hope some of you will
write to SI and make your feelings known!  Good luck!  I don't know much
about rythmic because it's rarely covered, but I remember loving the ribbon
event when I was a kid (maybe at the '84 Games?).  It hardly takes a genius
to realize it's a difficult SPORT!

Ann Marie


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 15:10:18 -0400
From:    ***@ZEUS.TOWSON.EDU
Subject: Rhythmic Gymnastics

        I myself am a big fan of artistic gymnastics, but I enjoy RSG too.
I have attented a couple RSG meets over the years, but there hard to find
aout about.  The problem with RSG is that it has never had a Mary Lou
Retton.  Thus, in the United States it is not considered a big deal.
        A couple of years ago, I visted a friend of mine in Spain.  She
is a dancer, and had done some rhythmic gymnastics.  To my surprise, the
rhythmic meet was packed, and everyone loved it.  After it was over, she
explained to me that to many people in Spain rhythmic gymnastics is as big
of a deal as football (soccer).  I couldn't believe this until I visted a
gymnastics school.  The rhythmic program was the same size as the
artistic program, and it was the rhythmic program that had all the
        My advice to all you rhythmic fans out there is to have hope.
Maybe Tamara Levinson or Jessica Davis or some unknown will have the meet
of their lives at Atlanta.  If this person gets anywhere near the notice
that Mary Lou got in 84, RSG could get some respect.

I believe Rodney Dangerfield would understand rhythmic's plight



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 15:15:54 -0400
From:    ***@ZEUS.TOWSON.EDU
Subject: Olympic Specials

        I just thought I would mention this just in case anyone missed
it in the USA TODAY.  It was reported on Thursday that Mary Lou Retton
and Pat O'Brien of CBS Sports and late night host of Lillehammer 94
fame will host a series of specials on ESPN.  They will deal with
different olympic topics as a lead up to the 96 games in Atlanta.

Bye for now!



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 12:59:03 -0700
Subject: Re: SI slams R-mics (suck eggs SI)

I've always felt that the real reason many people dismiss rhythmic
gymnastics and synchronized swimming is that they are the only two
Olympic events done solely by women.  Sexism, pure and simple.

SI needs to wake up to the fact that just because a sport isn't that
well-known in the U.S. doesn't mean that it isn't popular elsewhere.
Rhythmic is huge in Europe.  I saw the 1994 World Championships on TV and
the arena was jammed for the event finals.  If SI wants to ignore this
sport, that's their loss.

Bring on more rhythmic!



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 13:01:35 PDT
From:    ***@GEOWORKS.COM
Subject: Negativity

> That's just my opinion.  What do the rest of you think?  I'd especially love
> to hear from some of the "lurkers"!

        I think some of the criticism lately has been rude.  I don't mind
someone making a technical or sometimes even personal criticism if it is
done in a tasteful way.  For instance:

        "I think that that Dawes needs to keep her legs together on her
flipflops, and find it suprising that a.) her coach hasn't corrected this
and b.) judges don't seem to notice"
        "I think Sherbo displayed a really bad attitude at the meet in ..."

        This has quite different tone than some of the stuff lately.
        As to the latest post about Hilary (I've never even seen her do
gymnastics), I really don't think there was much in the way of gymnastic
criticism.  It seemed to boil down to a long and sarcastic way of saying
"Hilary Sucks" (sounds similar to things people said about the men's team
awhile ago...).  To say that a gymnast who most likely works out 6 hours a
day is "clever" because they are "content with mediocrity" doesn't really
make any sort of logical sense (i.e. if she was on TV, clearly many coaches
and judges disagree with the author, and as I've not seen her gymnatics
I'll have to trust their informed oppinion) and is just a personal attack.
        I guess there isn't really anything in the GYMN rules that says you
can't be rude in general, although there is a paragraph about being rude to
a person, generally known as flaming:

        "In order to keep the list friendly, we ask that all members
        remember to be respectful of others' points of view. It is, of
        course, alright to disagree with a person's opinion, but attacking
        them for holding it will be considered inappropriate in this forum.
        Similarly, we hope to be able to keep the "signal-to-noise" ratio
        high, so please avoid all manner of "flaming"."

        I would guess the post about Hilary would fail the above
paragraph's guidlines for three reasons.  It certainly wasn't respectful,
it was attacking her for a presumed oppinion (i.e. "content with
mediocrity", which I doubt she is), and as far as "signal-to-noise" I would
guess that knowing about the author's dislike of Hilary didn't do much
other than offend a bunch of us.
        I'm pretty sure the above paragraph from the Gymn "Updated
Introductory Letter" was put there to keep people from making rude posts,
and hope people will avoid them in the future.



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 15:43:54 -0400
From:    ***@ZEUS.TOWSON.EDU
Subject: Re: Negativity/Hillary Grivich

        I just had to put my two cents in on this.  It is my belief that
comments regarding are justified because of the level of gymnastics.
Hillary was performing with the best of her sport.  Since there is at the
moment no real professional gymnasts, the international amateurs are the
best.  These athletes are teenagers but are mature, disciplined, and know
how to take peoples cuts.  I am sure that Bela Karolyi said worse things
to her during workouts or meets than what was said here.
        I agree that these athletes put out much time and effort.  These
young ladies I think have never been given enough credit for the mind and
body they have because of their gymnastics.  People their age (football
players included) could only dream for what international gymnasts have.
        My basic point is that Hillary Grivich is like a basketball
player who is hardly in the starting five, or a baseball player who is an
utility infielder.  She has reached a level that few can only dream of,
but she is no Kim Zmeskal, Shannon Miller, Tatiana Gutsu, Lavinia
Milosivich, or anyone else of this calibar.  This is not a cut on her as
a human being, it is just the way it is.  Just as the sometime starting
basketball or player are not Michael Jordan or Cal Ripken, she is not
as good as the people I mentioned before.
        Two final points on this subject.  Don't feel bad for Hillary,
I'm sure their are many Level 10 coaches that would to have a Hillary
Grivich.  That is the whole point, she is better than many gymnasts in
the world but not the top of the international scene.
        This is it I promise!  I just want to add that I am in no way
condoning the use of this forum by people just to make insults of
gymnasts they don't like.  This should defenitely be pointed out when
someone goes overboard, but I don't think it's proper to censor peoples'
opinions espically when dealing with a person who competes a level where
critisim is part of the total package.

Smile it's FRIDAY!



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 17:36:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Zmeskal's vaults

> trend coming. BTW: Is a Piked Cuervo a 10.0 vault? I know that Khorkina's
> derivative (with the RO half to the horse is) but what about traditional
> approach. Makes no sense when the Layout Tsuk full (or Kasamatsu, depending
> on how you twist) is a 9.9. Who makes up these codes?

A piked Cuervo is a 9.9 and a layout Tsuk full is a 9.8, not 9.9.



Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 14:53:20 -0700
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: NCAA Men's Champs: Team prelims -- AA finals

> Thank you Rachele for the very prompt report of the results.
> I just wanted to note that the top two teams are from the West.
> I remember after regionals, someone noted that if the top six scores
> were looked at, then Temple would have gone.  This is yet another
> example of judging bias.  Apparently the judges is some areas
> boost scores up, whether knowingly or not.  If the selection were to be
> completely fair, I believe four or even five teams from the west deserved
> to go.  And I predict that the team finals will just be a showdown between
> the two west teams.  And just like when nationals were in New Mexico,
> I believe Stanford will win it all with more outstanding gymnastics.
> Josh

Dave Jusczyk (Did I FINNALY get the spelling right ?)
Called me this morning with the prelim results.
We noted how last year Nebraska won on their home turf.

This year with (T)OSU out of the running, its now an even playing field.
(Regents of the university are really miffed that we keep leaving the word
"THE" out of their university's name.
They much prefer that we call it THE Ohio State University.
I just got backhanded by them last week for calling them OSU again.
Hence I now call it (T)OSU.....)

Was Nebraska REALLY the best last year ? (Gimmie a &^%$# break !)

And we notice how Oklahoma won the regional and then fizzled.
(Can you say "GIFT POINTS" ?  SURE ! SURE ! I KNEW ya' COULD !)

Well the meat and potatoes are tonight, wish I could be there but I got
downed servers and mangled optical fibres.
Gonna be a LOOONNNNGGGG weekend !




Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 17:57:33 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: triple back off unevens

Svetlana Kozlova (USSR-Russia) did the triple back (successfully at '89
Moscow Stars) and current Russian Alexandra Sorokina also does it.  It is not
in the code but I'm sure it would be evaluated as an E!!!


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 18:00:09 -0400
Subject: Improving Floor.

Yes, the increased time limit would allow people to throw six or
seven major passes, so that is a problem, unless it was stopped by doing the
following: Having two sets of scores on Floor. One for the tumbling and
one for the artistic components. This could be done with two sets of
judges. One set would grade according to content of tumbling elements and
required elements in the current code. Another would grade on the overall
presentation of the elements and the routine. This is similar to the
figure skating rules with grade on "technical" and "artistic" composition.

Alternatively, I suggest that the judges "GET TOUCH" on form errors.
Alot of gymnasts have form errors while executing big skills but do
not get big deductions. A "cowboy" on a double tuck or a tucked full-in is
still a form error, and alot of gymnasts do this and the ones with the
full-ins don't seem to get the stronger deduction. Why is this? Are
the judges factoring the difficultly of the skill and if a skill is
very difficult should one allow the gymnast to have form errors to
execute it? I don't think so. I've seen alot of form errors
by gymnasts (particularly on beam and bar dismounts) as they struggle
to perform more difficult skills to get the E ratings. I wish that the CODE
would say If you cowboy, you cowboy-end of dicussion. If you don't
believe me, take alook at alot of the double backs and double
layouts off of beam and bars, respectively, and ask yourself.

I'm done here....Jeff


Date:    Fri, 21 Apr 1995 18:33:37 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Trivia Answers #28 - Beam and PH

Trivia answer time!!!
Topic:  Balance Beam & Pommel Horse

Thanks for questions goes to:

#1, 5 - Cole
#2 - Adam
#3 - Rachele
#4, 6, 8 - Nancy
#7 - Brett
#9 - Frances
#10 - Mara

1. At the Montreal Olympic games, Olga Korbut won her only individual medal
on beam.  What was her final placement and which two gymnasts stood on the
podium with her?

Olga won the silver medal.  Nadia Comaneci was first and Teodora Ungureanu
won the bronze.

2. How many circles (including flairs and loops) did Pi Gil Su (North Korea)
use in his 1992 World Championship and Olympic winning routines?


3. Which Soviet woman became known for mounting beam with flairs?

Svetlana Baitova, 1987

4. Name the Soviet from the '80's who won this event at Worlds every time he
made the team?

Valentin Mogilny member of the '85 and '89 Soviet World teams and '85 and '89
PH World Champ

5. Who/when was the first American to medal on beam at a World Championship?
What color medal?

Cathy Rigby, silver, Ljubjana, 1970

6. Three men from three countries tied for the World title in '92, 2 of them
went on to tie for the Olympic title and then in '93 only one was left to
claim the title.  Name them.

'92 Worlds - Li Jing (CHN), Vitali Scherbo (BLR), & Pae Gil Saue (PRK); '92
Olympics - Scherbo and Gil Saue; '93 Worlds - Gil Saue

7. At Montreal in 1985, this gymnast dismounted beam with a piked tsukahara.

Camelia Voinea

8. In '83 there was a protest to raise the eventual World PH's Champion
optional score. Who was the athlete, what was the original score, and what
was it raised to?

Dmitri Bilozerchev 9.95 to 10.0 In finals he, and four others, scored 10.0.
If the protest had not been honored and the optional score not raised it
would have resulted in a 3 way tie for first with Guczoghy (HUN) and Li
Xiaping (CHN).

9. Which Sov beam specialist and innovator - Sov team member at '76 Olympics
- married sports acrobat Evgey Makhalichev and competed with him as a mixed
pair. (She also performed beam at exhibitions as late as '87.)

Svetlana Grozdova.

10. Which Chinese gymnast finished out of the medal at World Championships
twice in a row after bobbling her dismount?

Yang Bo, 1989 & 1991


End of GYMN-L Digest - 20 Apr 1995 to 21 Apr 1995 - Special issue