gymn Digest                 Fri, 16 Dec 94       Volume 3 : Issue  48

Today's Topics:
 Cheap skills and why front fulls suck (was Re: Brought to you by USA
                      Cheers for the USA Women .
                    Confused in Arizona  (2 msgs)
                          Dortmund report 1
                       GER Women's Team Champs.
                            Grips (3 msgs)
                      gymnastics on tv (2 msgs)
                             In the News
                      Men's Gymnastics (3 msgs)
                Sov Sport Dortmund report (1) (2 msgs)
                        Sveta Ivanova Todorova
                    Text notation system for gymn
                              USA crowds
              which proposal are the U. Pres. voting on?

This is a digest of the mailing list. 


Date: Fri, 09 Dec 1994 15:09:59 -0700 (MST)
From: ***
Subject: Cheap skills and why front fulls suck (was Re: Brought to you by USA

> Good front tumbling is hard to master. I like to see the variety in tumbling
> passes now that front tumbling is more encouraged by the code.
> Leesa

Good back tumbling is hard to master too.  Variety is good, but at the
expense of what?  Raising the value of often unseen skills to the same
value as the more difficult, common skills results in athletes opting for
the easier skills and killing the purpose of a code that was supposed to
accurately seperate gymnasts based on difficulty.
      What is more difficult: a double layout (E-move) or a Rudi
(E-Move)?  I'll challenge anyone who says a Rudi.  Or even that they're
equal.  From how many gymnasts do we see Rudis from whom we'd never in a
million years see a double layout?  A lot.  Why do a double layout when
you can throw a Rudi?  Why do the ever rare E move of a double twisting
double back?  Just throw a Rudi for the same bonus-everyone else does. 
      Why even throw a full-in (that's a double backwards somersault
with a full twist on the first somersault folks) when you can do a front
full?  They're both equal according to the judges' tablets (but not in
their minds and unless you're wearing a US or Romanian leo your score
reflects it because most aren't dumb but that's another point altogether.)
      Obviously, front tumbling is hard.  (How many of us can do a front
full?)  But for some gymnasts, front tumbling is easier.  A double front
is hella hard.  How many of those do we see?  (Hardly any-they're *very*
rare).  That's variety right there if someone attempts one.  But they can
do a Rudi and get the same credit do why do one? 
      My point being:

- a Rudi is not a true E-move if you look at the scale of difficulty and
the value of the moves from A to E.

- a front full is not a true D move and not equal to a full-in (that's a
double backwards somersault with a full twist on the first somersault
folks) which is rated the same

- if you want to encourage variety, then do it.  Currently, there is no
bonus given for originality and/or virtuosity.  Upgrading low-rated
(comparitively) skills has only cloned women's floor exercise into one big
ball of mush like Spaghettios.  Most gymnasts are so eager to get their
bonus to be competitive and start from a 10.00 SV that they just toss in
the moves all over the place and by the time the morning session is over
you've seen 361 Rudis and about 6,209 front fulls and 230,890 Popas and
the highlight of your day so far was the Nacho bar. 

It's very depressing.


Date: Sun,  4 Dec 94 01:20:00 UTC
From: ***
Subject: Cheers for the USA Women .

 >when people discredit something that you received, you can't help but get
 >hurt by it (i.e. Zmeskal in 91 worlds.  She really didn't deserve the AA
 >title but, did the Soviet coaches need to say that in front of her face?
As someone who was there, I was disgusted by the reception most of the
foreign gymnasts received.  The audience went absolutely crazy any time a US
gymnast appeared, while giving only polite applause to other gymnasts.  I
won't repeat what was said to me when I cheered for the Soviets.  As for the
Soviet coaches saying that Zmeskal didn't deserve the title, why should they
not be allowed to speak their minds?  Could it be that they were disgusted
by the competition, too?
I should point out that not all US audiences are like those at Indy.  At the
'93 University Games, the spectators cheered for *all* the gymnasts, not
only the American ones.


Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 16:59:04 -0700 (MST)
From: ***
Subject: Confused in Arizona

> |
> | To Those Who Hold The Future Of Men's Gymnastics:

      I don't understand how the future of the sport of men's
gymnastics will be in jeopardy if it is cut by the NCAA. 


Confused in Arizona (and really mad that Fox Channel 15 refuses to play the
49er game because of copyright regulations and is instead playing a b&w
movie about slot machines).


Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 22:10:54 -0700 (MST)
From: ***
Subject: Confused in Arizona

| > |
| > | To Those Who Hold The Future Of Men's Gymnastics:

Amanda asked:
|     I don't understand how the future of the sport of men's
| gymnastics will be in jeopardy if it is cut by the NCAA. 

College gymnastics is the very backbone of American men's gymnastics
as it now stands.  It would be a HUGE setback for the men's program to
lose the support of the NCAA.

If the NCAA drops men's gymnastics, the opportunities available to a
male gymnast will drop DRASTICALLY, which will of course lead to fewer
gymnasts and less competitiveness.  College Athletic Directors who
have men's gymnastics teams in their programs support those teams
*because* the NCAA sponsors men's gymnastics, and therefore the teams
can raise the AD's totals for Academic All-Americans, All-Americans,
NCAA titles and so forth.  This is important for the AD to keep
his/her job.  Hopefully, the AD also supports the team for the
student-athlete and for amateur athletics, etc.  However, if the NCAA
cuts men's gymnastics, then the AD will need to use the
money/scholarships in his/her department that goes towards men's
gymnastics and instead put it towards other NCAA sponsored sports.
Therefore, if the NCAA drops it's sponsorship of a Championships for
men's gymnastics, you will almost immediately be able to count on one
hand the number of colleges that offer men's gymnastics.

Now, why will this be a problem?  So what if there are no men's
gymnastics programs in colleges anymore?  We still have USA
Gymnastics' Olympic Training Center, Ed Burch's Gold Cup, and
Daggett's also looks to be very promising.  Probably a few other clubs
would step up to the plate.  But there are two problems: (1), it's
just not enough, and (2), it will force a gymnast to choose between
college and gymnastics, or between gymnastics and other sports.

Regarding it not being enough -- there is no way that the current
club/USGF system could fund the number of gymnasts that the college
system supports.  Somewhere between 400 and 500 gymnasts are NCAA Div
I gymnasts... these gymnasts range anywhere from full to no
scholarships, but they do not have to pay for most of their basic
gymnastics expenses.  That's a lot of money that has to be generated
really quickly if the NCAA drops the sport.

And of course, it's a question as to if that money will even need to
be generated, because what everyone in the men's world is wondering
is, just how many male gymnasts will be left if the NCAA drops the
sport?  Many of the current ones will have to choose to finish their
college education as oppposed to continuing in gymnastics... and it
will be very very difficult to do both, for those who want to, because
they won't have the help they receive as a student-athlete to
accomplish both goals (financial support, academic support, and
athletic support).  Many of the potential future gymnasts will choose
not to continue in the sport when they realize that they can run track
(or whatever) and get a scholarship for college.  Therefore, many
believe that boys' gymnastics will suffer, particularly when the guys
get to high school age and find that other sports can offer them a
better future.

Also, the NCAA provides many more goals for current gymnast -- can I
be All-American, can I get a scholarship for my gymnastics, can I win
the regional title -- etc?  If the only post-high school goal that a
male gymnast has is the National team and hopefully Worlds/Olympic
team, combined that with the difficulty of participating in the sport
(great expenses, putting your education on hold, and very few
opportunities), well, things just don't look good for having a nice
large number of gymnasts competing and pushing each other to raise the
level of the sport.

Hopefully other people have more comments and questions -- feel free
to post!



Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 23:41:58 -0500 (EST)
From: ***
Subject: Dortmund report 1

     Regarding Mara's question about whether Roshchina and Fabrichnova are
club-mates, that's what the author of the article clearly says. The word he
used was "odnoklubnitsa," which broken down basically translates literally into
same-club-girl. Maybe the girls train at their clubs with their personal
coaches and only go to Krugloye before big meets. I'm really not sure.
     Mara is right that the Russian coaches make a decision about whom to
promote, regardless of results. I remember back in 1987-1988, the Sovetsky
Sport reporters were already touting Boginskaya as the next big star and as
Shushunova's successor. Plus, when Shushunova and Omelianchik were competing as
co-World AA champions, the powers that be in the Soviet system clearly chose to
promote Elena over Oksana. I loved them both, and to this day don't really
understand why Oksana wasn't given the chance to live up to her full potential.
I assume with Khorkina they're using the same reasoning as with Bogy - going
for a nontraditional look, a style that really stands out. Even though
Roshchina won nationals, her coach even said that it was only because of
Khorkina's beam fall. I think all the coaches, and Svetlana herself, know that
she's been picked to be the leader. We asked her about this in Dortmund, and
she said she's uncomfortable with that role and that helping the team is more
important to her than individual stardom. But more on that in the February IG
(as far as I know). :)



Date: Mon, 12 Dec 94 02:19:00 UTC
From: ***
Subject: GER Women's Team Champs.

>From the DPA, following are results from the German Team Champs. (women),
held Dec. 10 in Kiel.
 1.  SG Schorndorf   179.75
 2.  SC Berlin       178.85
 3.  TuG Leipzig     173.35
 4.  PSV Rostock     162.20
The best individual gymnast was Rufina Kreibich (TV Hoffnungsthal) with
37.70 pts.


Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 10:00:56 PST
From: ***
Subject: Grips

> Inverted: Someone help me out here. I think that this is the reverse of
> the eagle grip (i.e. start with a regular grip and do the old "skin the
> cat".  This is the grip used for the german giant.

      The difference between inverted and eagle is in shoulder and wrist
possition, the turn of the arm is the same.  In an eagle, the wrist is
flexed (i.e. your hand is dragging behind as you go around the bar).
Because of this you can't really support weight going over the top, so you
usually have to dump your shoulders over the bar ahead of your body so your
wrists can support your weight.  In an invert, the wrist is extended, so
your wrist is leading your hand over the bar.  In this position you can
support yourself in the handstand, so people can (and usually do) go over
the top with their head in, something that would cause them to peel off in
an eagle.
      I might have done a better job of describing this in the FAQ.



Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 18:27:03 -0800 (PST)
From: ***
Subject: Grips

> [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
> OK, I'll take a shot at this.
> >the description of some of these new skills on bars go into detail on
> grips...
> >can someone give a brief description of the types of grips (reg,
> inverted,
> >eagle) and describe what the hand positions are?
> >thanks
> Regular: Hanging with the palms facing forward.  Thumbs point toward
> each other.
> Reverse: Hanging with palms facing behind you.  Thumbs point away from
> each other.
> Eagle: Start with a reverse grip, then do a "skin the cat". This grip
> would normally be obtained by pirouette (only with good shoulder
> flexibility) or shoot through; not by doing a skin the cat.
> Inverted: Someone help me out here. I think that this is the reverse of
> the eagle grip (i.e. start with a regular grip and do the old "skin the
> cat".  This is the grip used for the german giant.
> Mixed: One hand in reg. one in rev. grip.  Thumbs point in the same
> direction.
> Cross: Wrists crossed over. Usually (always?) in mixed grip.
Texx terrorizes the gymn gang by admitting:

Uh... definitely NOT always. 
I have been known to do cross grips with
thumbs pointing the same way as well as opposite ways.
{rest of Jims post omitted}




Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 23:31:58 -0500 (EST)
From: ***
Subject: Grips

On Sat, 10 Dec 1994, Texx wrote:

> > Mixed: One hand in reg. one in rev. grip.  Thumbs point in the same
> > direction.
> >
> > Cross: Wrists crossed over. Usually (always?) in mixed grip.
> >
> Texx terrorizes the gymn gang by admitting:
> Uh... definitely NOT always. 
> I have been known to do cross grips with
> thumbs pointing the same way as well as opposite ways.

Texx is right about cross grip not always being in mixed grip, but it's
not particularly terrorizing.  Wasn't there a cross-grip, non-mixed-grip
giant in the last HB compulsory?  And the "mixed grip salto" on UB would,
under the terminology we're using here, be a cross-grip, non-mixed-grip
salto (this is the one frequently and incorrectly called a Deltchev).



Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 17:58:24 -0500 (EST)
From: ***
Subject: gymnastics on tv

According to a cablevision guide:
Dec. 24 ESPN 8-9pm Central -some competition from Mexico City
Dec. 31 ESPN2 2:30-4:00 Central -some comprtition from Richmond, VA.


Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 02:29:43 -0500
From: ***
Subject: gymnastics on tv

>>Dec. 24 ESPN 8-9pm Central -some competition from Mexico City<<

This is the exhibition featuring Svetlana Boginskaya, Lavinia Milosovici, and
Bart & Nadia (among many others) that was taped in, I think, October.

>>Dec. 31 ESPN2 2:30-4:00 Central -some comprtition from Richmond, VA.<<

This is another re-run of the Women's World Team Trials (It was also re-run
on Thanksgiving ... ESPN tends to use things at least 3 or 4 times).



Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 17:38:27 -0500 (EST)
From: ***
Subject: Indy

     I'm a bit behind the times here, but whoever said that the Soviet coaches
said in front of Zmeskal that she didn't deserve the AA title in Indy has their
info wrong. Both the Soviet and the Romanian coaches boycotted the press
conference after the AA, which I suppose says something about their feelings,
but they were not THERE to say ANYTHING in front of Kim. The only people who
showed up for the press conference were Bela, Kim, and Boginskaya, who chose to
go regardless of what the Soviet coaches did. I give her a lot of credit for
that. I was her interpreter at that press conference, and the infamous quote
"I'm 100% sure I would have won if the championships had been held in Europe"
was not put in proper context in the US media. First of all, a reporter asked
her a question that was posed that way: "Do you think you would have won if the
championships had been held in Europe." So she didn't come up with that
statement out of the blue; she was responding to a direct question. Plus, after
"Europe," she said, "but I'm happy for Kim and congratulate her on her
success," which the US media conveniently left out. Svetlana was not at all
bitter. On the way to the press conference, she told me that she knew coming in
that the best she'd be able to do was 2nd, since the meet was being held in the
US, so she was not disappointed at all. The only coach I heard make a negative
comment in front of a gymnast's face was Bela Karolyi, who said in front of
Svetlana that her time had passed. When asked about this later, Svetlana just
laughed and said that she didn't think Kim Zmeskal was that good a gymnast to
cause her (Svetlana's) time to be over. She seemed to find the whole thing very
amusing. The only time during Indy that she got really hurt was when Kim didn't
shake her hand and when, the next day, the crowd booed her when she didn't
shake Kim's hand. She left the arena in tears, and Chusovitina explained to
reporters that Svetlana's feelings had really been hurt when Kim didn't shake
her hand. I don't necessarily agree that Svetlana should have turned around and
done the same thing, but I know it upset her that she was booed and Kim wasn't.
She later said in a "Sovetsky Sport" interview that she really couldn't figure
out the whole incident, but guessed that Bela had told Kim not to shake her



Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 00:06:14 -0700 (MST)
From: ***
Subject: In the News

Here is some info I got from the USOC... notice that in the middle
somewhere is some recent news on the Pacific Alliance Games (good
results for USA)...:

(compiled by the USOC's Public Information/Media Relations

December 6, 1994

Samaranch Not Going to Run Again
IOC President Juan Antonio Samaranch has decided not to run for
re-election in 1997. Samaranch, 74, feels that he should be
obligated to respect the age limit for IOC members. He has been
president since 1980. Story ran on Reuters and today's USA Today.

December 7, 1994

On Nov. 11, 1994, the USOC Executive Committee approved a
proposal from the Athlete Support Committee increasing Basic
Grants to athletes who are in the top four in the world and which
may result in Level II grant increases to athletes in the top
eight in the world for individual sports and top six for team

Gymnastics Training Site
USA Gymnastics announced that the National Team athletes in group
rhythmic gymnastics will move to Downers Grove, Ill., to train
for the Pan American Games, world championships and Olympic Games
beginning in January 1995. The facility, Elite Sports Complex,
Inc., is scheduled for a grand opening on Dec. 17. All media and
general public are invited to attend the open house on Dec. 17
from 1:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m.

December 12, 1994

Australia Chooses U. of Ga.
The Australian Olympic Committee chose the University of Georgia
as its pre-Olympic training site for the 1996 Olympic Games.
Story ran on AP.

Jansen Takes Phone Crown
1994 Olympic gold medalist Dan Jansen took top honors of the USA
Today's fan voting for the 1994 AAU Sullivan Award. Jansen beat
out golfer Tiger Woods and Olympians Tommy Moe and Shannon
Miller. Results ran in today's USA Today.

Date: December 12, 1994        
Luan Peszek, Director of Public Relations
Ramonna Robinson, Manager of Public Relations

USA Names Rhythmic Group
National Team Training Squad

USA Gymnastics, the national governing body for the sport in the USA,
selected seven gymnasts as members of the 1995 Rhythmic Group National
Team Training Squad. The squad is training for the 1995 Pan American
Games to be held March 4-19 in Mar del Plata, Argentina.

The seven gymnasts were selected from a training camp held at the U.S.
Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, Colo., November 17-27.

Members of the squad include:
Aliane Baquerot/Manhattan, N.Y./16
Mandy James/Orange Park, Fla./15
Kate Nelson/Arlington Heights, Ill./16
Nicole Sengstock/West Allis, Wis./16
Brandi Siegel/Miami, Fla./15
Challen Sievers/Downers Grove, Ill./15
Becky Turner/Atlanta, Ga./17

The National Team athletes in group rhythmic gymnastics will move to
Downers, Grove, Ill., beginning in January 1995 to train at Elite
Sports Complex, Inc. This new facility was built especially for
rhythmic gymnastics and will also be called the USA Gymn astics
National Rhythmic Training Center. Former Bulgarian National Team
coach Efrossina Anguelova is the coach of the Pan American Games Team.
Anguelova coached the group World Champions from Bulgaria in 1989.

USA Gymnastics Rhythmic Program Director Nora Campbell said, "We are
thrilled to have these seven talented athletes training together for
the Pan American Games competition. With the addition of Group
Rhythmic Gymnastics to the 1996 Olympic Games, we're w orking
extremely hard to ensure a good showing in Atlanta."

# # #

Date: December 12, 1994        
Luan Peszek, Director of Public Relations
Ramonna Robinson, Manager of Public Relations

USA Men and Women Gymnasts Earn Team Gold
Medal at the Pacific Alliance Championships

The USA gymnastics delegation earned the team gold medals at the
Pacific Alliance Championships in Auckland, New Zealand, December

The women's team included: Kellee Davis, Soni Meduna, Summer Reid, and
Marianna Webster. The men's team included: Spencer Slaton, Kip Simons,
Josh Stein and Jay Thornton.

For the women, Davis took first in the all-around competition as well
as first on floor and vault and second on beam. Webster took third
all-around, third on bars and fifth on floor. Meduna took fifth on
floor and Reid was sixth in the all-around and third on beam.

Stein took first in the all-around for the USA men, while Simons
earned third. Still waiting on individual event placings for men.

The USA Women's Team:


Kellee Davis/American Twisters/Pompano Beach, Fla./Columbia Heights, N.Y./16

Soni Meduna/Dynamos/Oklahoma City, Okla./Colon, Neb./15

Summer Reid/Flips Gym./Sparks, Nev./Sparks, Nev./17

Marianna Webster/Dynamos/Oklahoma City, Okla./Joplin, Mo./15

The USA Men's Team


Spencer Slaton/UCLA/Los Angeles, Calif./Atlanta, Ga./19

Kip Simons/Ohio State/Columbus, Ohio/Bloomsburg, Pa./22

Josh Stein/Stanford Univ./Stanford, Calif./Houston, Texas/22

Jay Thornton/Univ. of Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa/Augusta, Ga./20

# # #

Date: October 28, 1994                 
Luan Peszek, Director of Public Relations
Ramonna Robinson, Manager of Public Relations

Gary Alexander Named USA Gymnastics
Vice President of Programs and Events

Gary Alexander has been named Vice President of Programs and Events
for Indianapolis-based USA Gymnastics, the national governing body for
gymnastics in the United States. Alexander will begin on November 9.

USA Gymnastics President Kathy Scanlan said, "We're very happy to have
Gary join our staff at USA Gymnastics. He has a great deal of
experience and insight into our sport and will make a positive
addition to the staff."

Alexander has 32 years of gymnastics experience and most recently
worked at the United States Olympic Committee as the Director of U.S.
Olympic Festivals. He directed all areas of USOC participation in U.S.
Olympic Festivals, including integrating involve ment of USOC
Divisions of Media, Drug Education, Medical Services, Legal and
Broadcasting. He also approved and monitored the Local Organizing
Committee's marketing, licensing and sponsor programs as well as
advised 37 National Governing Bodies participat ing in the Festivals.

Alexander said, "I can't tell you how excited I am to to join the
outstanding staff at USA Gymnastics. I'm looking forward to giving
back to the sport that has given me so much." Prior to the United
States Olympic Committee, Alexander was the owner/operator of the
Gymnastics Institute of Colorado, where he managed all areas of the
private gymnastics school including class programs, team programs,
marketing and finance.

He was a gymnastics competitor from 1962 to 1978 and is an
International Brevet judge. He judged the 1992 Olympic Games, and the
1987 and 1989 World Championships. He's currently the General Vice
President of the National Gymnastics Judges Association. He was the
Technical Director of the 1990 Goodwill Games and the assistant
Technical Director of the 1987 Pan American Games. In August of 1994
Alexander was inducted into the Frank Cumisky Judging Hall of Fame.

Alexander will be moving to Indianapolis along with his wife Sue and
his 12-year-old daughter Lauren.

# # #


Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 21:11 EDT
From: ***@ROO.FIT.EDU
Subject: intro

Hi!  My name's Laura. I'm 24 years old.  I'm a senior at Florida Tech.
In May I'll graduate with a dual B.S.--in marine biology and aquaculture.

I heard about GYMN from Susan;  she's also the one that made me
a gymnastics fanatic.  (She LOVES Dimitri Biozertchev!)  I'd taken classes
when I was small, but I never kept up with them.  The best I can do now is
a back-handspring froma cheese mat.  I love to watch gymnastics whenever
the networks decide to finally show it. 

My favorite gymnasts are:  Misiutin, Liukin, Boguinskaya, and really any
ex-Soviet gymnast.  I'm glad Susan told me about GYMN.  I've read a few
messages already, and I love the informal format.

"talk" to you later.



Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 07:41:13 -0700 (MST)
From: ***
Subject: Men's Gymnastics

Ron submitted this letter to the email campaign -- I thought it was
pretty interesting and so asked him if I could forward it to Gymn.  He
said yes, so here it is:

| To Those Who Hold The Future Of Men's Gymnastics:
|      I'm sure you've heard the tale of the three blind people who are asked
| to touch an elephant and describe what it is. One grabs the tail and thinks
| it's a rope; another grabs the trunk and thinks it's a large hose, and yet
| another grabs one of the legs and thinks it's a tree.
|      Take those same three blind people and ask them to describe the NCAA.
| One grabs a small round ball, feels the stitches and hears the crack of a
| bat. "The NCAA is baseball," he'll proclaim. Another will grab an odd-shaped
| ball, feel a helmet and smell the grass beneath her. "The NCAA is football,"
| she'll say.
|      And yet a third will walk on a bouncy floor, feel the dry sensation of
| chalk and touch the odd shape of a pommell horse. "The NCAA is men's
| gymnastics," she'll say.
|      Indeed, that's what makes the NCAA so special. It's composed of so many
| sports, giving athletes and fans so many tastes and flavors, so much from
| which to choose. It is the athletic buffet of America.
|      I've always considered the NCAA a microcosm of the Olympics. Indeed, we
| always hear of the Olympic spirit and the way that event draws nations closer
| together, even if it's for only a few weeks. Perhaps what makes the Olympics
| so special is that it showcases so many sports -- sports that we, personally,
| may not always like so much.
|      But the grand aspect of the Olympics is that this international buffet
| draws us all together, where we can cheer for our favorites, appreciate the
| efforts of others and all rejoice in that special thrill we call sports.
|      The same is true with the NCAA. Its strength is in its variety. Wittle
| the NCAA down to a few sports, and, suddenly, the organization no longer is
| the same. Think of the television commercials advertising the NCAA. It shows
| a volleyball player, then flashes to football player running, then to a
| gymnast flipping, then to a diver splashing into the water.
|       It is this ideal, the ideal of so many sports being given equal
| footing, that is the foundation of the NCAA. That's why the decision in
| January by the NCAA to possibly discontinue its sponsorship of men's
| gymnastics scares me so much.
|      It may seem a minor thing. After all, it's just one sport. How much
| could it hurt to get rid of it? But that's the trap of which you must be
| aware. Slowly, ever so imperceptibly, the NCAA will begin to drop the
| so-called "unpopular" sports, the ones that aren't necessarily so well known.
|      The very mission of the NCAA, as stated in its constitution,  is ``to
| initiate, stimulate and improve intercollegiate athletics programs for
| student-athletes." Dropping sponsorship of a sport because it does not meet
| some arbitrary number of sponsoring schools goes against the very foundation
| of the NCAA.
|      At your upcoming convention in San Diego, you have a chance to keep the
| foundation solid, to keep the NCAA the grand buffet it is.
|      I urge you to vote yes on Proposal No. 2-124, which extends the
| moratorium on Bylaw and gives men's gymnastics a chance to survive.
| Please give the sport that much of a chance.
|      And above all else, if you have suggestions, please voice them. Think
| the sport is being run incorrectly? Perhaps not promoted correctly? Or
| perhaps simply needs just minor adjustment? If so, please stand up and give
| your suggestions.
|      Men's gymnastics is at crossroads in its rich, centuries-old history. I
| urge you to vote yes on the proposal.
|      Help save the sport and in the process, keep the Olympic spirit -- and
| the NCAA spirit -- alive.
| Ronald


Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 10:03:53 -0500
From: ***
Subject: Men's Gymnastics

     I have been reading all the gwyn E-mail threads concerning the NCAA`s vote
  next month on Proposal No. 2-124 which extends the moratium on Bylaw
  However in none of the messages I have seen has there been an actual posting
  of their contents. Could someone in the know please post what the Proposal
  and Bylaw actually state? I have hesitated bringing the Email letters into my
  own gym because of this. Although I have shown the letters to a few people.
  The question has been asked of me, and I really couldn't give a definitive


Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 21:30:15 -0700 (MST)
From: ***
Subject: Men's Gymnastics

|  I have been reading all the gwyn E-mail threads concerning the NCAA`s vote
next month on Proposal No. 2-124 which extends the moratium on Bylaw

This will be posted soon -- look for either Mayland or Chuck to send
in this info. 

Many of you may know the Vexler family -- featured in a side bar in
the USA Champs _IG_.  Annie Hoog, now the grandmother was an Olympian
-- both of the parents are gymnasts -- both of the kids are gymnasts
who competed at USAs this year in the Juniors division -- daughter
Talya and son Aaron (who got 2nd).  Aaron is a Temple gymnast this
year -- I just got a call from Mayland saying that Aaron's mother has
submitted FIFTY letters to our email campaign!

Keep the letters coming!



Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 19:25 EDT
From: ***@ROO.FIT.EDU
Subject: Sorry

Sorry for the mail clutter.  My intro bounced back to me several times.



Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 14:07:53 -0500 (EST)
From: ***
Subject: Sov Sport Dortmund report (1)

Here's the first report from Sovetsky Sport on the Dortmund
Worlds. Actually, it's probably the 2nd, since men's comps were
before women's comps, but either the paper didn't cover them or I
haven't gotten that paper yet. I'll post the rest of the articles
once I've gotten them translated.
     [Susan, could you pass on the Khorkina parts to our e-mail-
less friend John? I think he'd like them! :)]


Aleksandr Barmin, Commentator for the Sports-N Television Studio,
Reports From Germany From the World Gymnastics Championships,
Special to Sovetsky Sport. (Sovetsky Sport, Nov. 18, pp. 1, 4.
Translation by Beth Squires:) According to a draw, in the first
round the hostesses of the podium opened up the women's
compulsories on the beam. Everyone expected a minor miracle,
remembering the excellent performance of the German's men team
the day before. It did not happen. Four of the six made serious
errors, and the attention somehow shifted automatically to the
other teams. It was suddenly noticed that the loudest crowd
support was for the Japanese, and the fans were shouting in
Russian. FIG President Yury Titov, who was sitting at the
officials' table on the other side, was surprised. But,
recognizing compatriots among the fans, he began to smile. Even
though he didn't realize right away what was going on. It turned
out that the Japanese girls had been led onto the podium by the
prestigious Russian coach Viktor Razumovsky, who relatively
recently began working with the Japanese gymnasts. Thanks to us,
the Japanese confidently surpassed the Germans, Cubans and
Canadians, who were performing with them.
     The Russian gymnasts appeared in the second round. They
began on bars. Yelena Grosheva of Yaroslavl went up first.
Everything was fine - 9.612. Something has to be said about the
judging here. In comparison with the rather modest scores for the
men gymnasts the day before - 9.3-9.4 (and they were considered
very decent scores) - here all the judging problems remained:
excessive lenience and the so-called "escalation" from
participant to participant and from round to round - something
that had especially regrettable consequences.
     But let's return to the performances of our girls. Muscovite
Yevgenia Roshchina began her bars routine brilliantly. She hit
everything in a handstand, showed good flight, kept her body
tight, everything was perfect! But then she missed a connection
from the low bar to the high bar - 8.9. I immediately recalled
the poor start of our men the day before. But then that was
immediately forgotten. Whereas Oksana Fabrichnova, who followed
her club-mate, out of inertia lost a few hundredths on trivial
mistakes, the third gymnast from the capital, Dina Kochetkova,
was very precise - 9.725.
     As Sveta Khorkina, the beauty from Belgorod, was approaching
the apparatus, cameras began to snap in a chorus. The sense of
pride in our star, which I immediately caught myself feeling,
grew during her exercise into a kind of overwhelming delight. All
of Sveta's movements are not simply precise and technically
exact. They are specially accented because of her unusual height
for a gymnast. These accents seem to be slightly delayed, coming
after smooth, broad movements, and they are especially effective
because of that. A brilliant 9.8! Yelena Lebedeva of St.
Petersburg, who was seventh on the list as the alternate,
completed the Russian girls' performance on the apparatus. Her
9.562 was most likely a result of the escalation in scores. No
offense is meant to her - her exercise just hasn't been brought
to the necessary level yet. Yet our team's total on bars was
absolutely the best result.
     On the beam, the Russian girls performed to such a powerful
accompaniment of cheers from the stands that this immediately
affected their mood and fighting spirit. Gymnastics specialists
from various cities in Russia who had come to the championships
with a tourist group didn't spare their voices or their hands.
[Note - it's definitely true that the Russian fans cheered and
clapped A LOT, but some of the noise also came from various
members of the IG tour! :)] Directed by Oleg Stokin and Valery
Starkin, our fans shouted loud enough for the entire stadium to
hear. And they "shouted up" a few tenths for the girls, I think.
They saw, heard and smiled in response. It seems that the judges
also reacted to this psychological pressure. The Russian team had
the second highest score of the day on beam. It was exceeded only
by one team from the final round. But more on that later. The
scores ranged from 9.587 for Roshchina and Fabrichnova to 9.75
for Kochetkova. They performed everywhere as a six-some, without
the "floating" seventh participant, since Natasha Ivanova had
badly injured her foot at the last training session.
     In the Russian girls' floor exercises, the judges came
slightly "back down to earth," and the girls themselves did not
all soar to the proper height. Grosheva got a 9.325 and Khorkina,
a 9.612. The rest of the scores were within this range. On the
vault, our girls put a fitting end to their first appearance on
the podium at Westfallenhallen. Everyone scored between 9.387 and
     The gymnasts from Ukraine also performed in this round. They
were very steady, strong and confident. They lost to the Russians
by a few tenths, but their leader, Lilia Podkopayeva, had the
absolute best result in the all-around. And this is taking into
account this round, the previous one and the next one.
     While waiting for the third group of teams, my foreign
colleagues complimented our girls and predicted a victorious
outcome for the Russians. That was nice to hear.
     Performing in the third round, the most equal and strongest
in terms of composition, were the gymnasts from Romania, the US,
Belorussia and Spain. The judges' "escalation" played into the
hands of our main rivals here. The scores were "kicked up" a
little bit everywhere, but it turned out to be a great deal in
the end. Both the Romanians and the Americans passed the
Russians. And in the fourth and last round, so did the Chinese.
     Shannon Miller, the leader of the US team, was
unquestionably good. She was excellent on beam and floor. Her
vault was weak, but the judges had given in to the trend they had
taken from the beginning, and they didn't retreat. Even vault
expert Turishcheva, as well as other judges on this event,
Andrianova (Russia), Kim (Belorussia) and Korolenko (Ukraine),
couldn't do anything about themselves or the circumstances.
     But when Miller made two blatant errors on the bars and was
given a 9.525, things began to resemble a scandal. The two
mistakes, worth .3 each, made it impossible to score even an
ideal routine higher than 9.4. And then, what was the purpose of
this from a practical point of view? The US team wasn't going to
have any difficulty ending up among the six best teams, and
everything would start from zero in the finals. And the
championships were not for the individual AA but for the team. In
short, there are unresolved but important problems in women's
judging. [Understatement of the century!!]
     In the fourth and final round, the Chinese were brilliant.
Especially on the beam. Without question, they were the strongest
here. On floor and vault it is difficult to give preference to
anyone, but our girls were best on bars. The Chinese, by the way,
blew this event, for all practical purposes. Three gymnasts in a
row made flagrant errors. Nevertheless, they put pressure on our
     Tomorrow, the men will complete the preliminaries with their
optional programs. The minimum task here is to get into the top
six, and the maximum task is to finish in a higher place, to
psychologically dispose the judges, the crowd and our rivals
toward our aspirations to be the champions.


Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 21:54:55 -0500
From: ***
Subject: Sov Sport Dortmund report (1)

I found the reporting style in the Sovetsky Sport piece a refreshing change
from what appears in many English-language papers.  There's clearly a fair
amount of cheerleading in the piece, but also criticism and realism where it
is warranted, something that does not appear often enough in most press.

A few thoughts:

>Whereas Oksana Fabrichnova, who followed her club-mate

I thought Roschinya trained at Dynamo Moscow with Fabrichnova at Kruglove.

>     As Sveta Khorkina, the beauty from Belgorod, was approaching the
apparatus, cameras began to snap in a chorus. The sense of pride in our star,
which I immediately caught myself feeling, grew during her exercise into a
kind of overwhelming delight.

This paragraph surprised me.  One would expect either Kotchetkova (or maybe
Roschinya) to be the 'star' of this team as one is Goodwill champ, the other
Russian National champ.  Obviously, on the Russian team as on the Soviet
before it, the opinionmakers have greater importance than the competition

>Her 9.562 was most likely a result of the escalation in scores. No offense
is meant to her - her exercise just hasn't been brought to the necessary
level yet.

Realism even though the author is clearly pushing for his countrywomen.  Very
refreshing to see this comment! 

>[Note - it's definitely true that the Russian fans cheered and
clapped A LOT, but some of the noise also came from various
members of the IG tour! :)]

During the compulsories, probably as much or more came from the IG tour
members!  ;-)

short, there are unresolved but important problems in women's
judging. [Understatement of the century!!]

Of the milennium...



Date: Fri, 09 Dec 94 11:47 PST
Subject: Sveta Ivanova Todorova

The ultra-cool Sveta Ivanova Todorova of Bulgaria won the recent
Golden Sands Invitational I was told.  That clinches it, there
really is a God.  She is one of the last true artists left and her
floor ex is to die for.  Style anyone?  Passion? Feeling? Maturity?
She has it all.  Ok, she cant tumble or do bars anymore, but nobody
left in gymnastics today moves like she does.

Womens gymnastics today is not worthy of her.


Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 20:23:01 -0500
From: ***
Subject: Text notation system for gymn

After having spend the better part of the day staring at pages of my own
text, I realized that part of the problem we all deal with on gymn is in
describing routines and moves online.

Until such time as we have graphics and full-motion video as part of our
internet interface (don't hold your breath), I suggest that we develop a
system of notations (similar to those used by judges) based entirely in the
ASCII character set to describe the key moves in the FIG code.

We could then develop a Gymn ASCII dictionary and put it on the FTP sites or
distribute it as updated.

Ideas? Anyone?



Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 21:25:35 -0500
From: ***
Subject: Ummm

Szabo reccomends the Nacho's with chili ...



Date: Sat, 10 Dec 94 13:41 PST
Subject: USA crowds

I must agree with Debbie's comments about Indy.. the crowd was very rude
to the foreign gymnasts.  Amy and I were repeatedly told we "weren't patriotic
enough" because we were cheering for gymnasts from <gasp> other countries.

A woman stopped us at the concessions stand (Amy was wearing a t-shirt that
was a replica of Bogy's 89 AA leo and I was wearing a shirt that had a replica
of the Groshkova flower leo with "where the hell is groshkova" written on the
back.  We were carrying numerous flags we made out of posterboard) and told us
that she really wanted to root for the gymnasts she liked (foreign) but she
felt compelled being an American, to root only for the Americans. I only hope
that for Xmas (or Channukah) she got a mind of her own.


An erudite woman who sat behind us told us it "should be illegal for Bontas
to use American music".  It actually should be illegal for this woman to
reproduce.  But then Tractor Pulls might go out of business.

Several foreign gymasts did amazing routines to no reaction from the crowd.
American gymnasts were getting huge cheers just for mounting the podium.

Thank God its over.


Date: 12 Dec 94 14:50:55 EDT
From: ***
Subject: which proposal are the U. Pres. voting on?

John asked the following question, and I thought it best to reply to
the whole list:

> Ron said:
> > |      I urge you to vote yes on Proposal No. 2-124, which extends the
> > | moratorium on Bylaw ...

> But Rachele's original message said:
> > Q. WHAT
> > A. The University Presidents will vote on Proposal 1-87. If this
> >         proposal passes, the NCAA Championships for Men's Gymnastics will
> >         be guaranteed through 1997.

> Are 2-124 and 1-87 the same thing? I'm concerned that some of our
> emails may refer to an irrelevant or nonexistent proposal.

John, and other interested Gymners,

They are the same, and in fact, there is a new proposal number, "3-??" -- I
don't know the exact number.  But they are all the same.  The first digit
refers to the manual number, the post-dash number refers to the proposal's
number in that manual.  The NCAA put out a second manual sometime in early fall
(I believe) and then just put out a third one recently. 

It's of course nice to use the latest number, but I don't think we'll lose any
points for asking for a YES vote to 1-87.  =)



Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 01:58:57 -0500
From: ***
Subject: Whoops!

Ahh, note that the Szabo/nacho message entitled "Ummm" was meant for Amanda
and not the entire list and is based on a rather inside joke pertaining to
her front fulls message. I've actually sent  mail meant for _Gymn_ to her

Sorry about the mail clutter!


End of gymn Digest