gymn Digest                 Wed,  5 Oct 94       Volume 3 : Issue  27

Today's Topics:
                Alfred Vogel International (Rhythmic)
                    Birmingham Classics Mens comp
               Birmingham Classics Womens addition bits
                          Dmitri Karbonenko
                  German Worlds Qualifying (2 msgs)
                        Hello!... and help...
               New Subscriber, Introduction Of (2 msgs)
                         Olympic Fever Story
                          Question (3 msgs)
                       Recent traffic problems
                           Request for info
                  Silly Mini-Trivia Questions:  Hair
                   strike; Thompson; Karolyi's gym
                         training conditions

This is a digest of the mailing list. 


Date: Sat, 1 Oct 94 18:20:19 BST
From: ***
Subject: Alfred Vogel International (Rhythmic)

Alfred Vogel International Tournament (Rhythmic Gymnastics)

(held in Holland)




1. Magdalena Brzeska        (GER)
2. Kristina Kliukeviciute   (LTU)
3. Viktoria Frater          (HUN)


1. Magdalena Brzeska        (GER)  9.575
2. Kristina Kliukeviciute   (LTU)  9.475
3. Viktoria Frater          (HUN)  9.300


1. Magdalena Brzeska        (GER)  9.600
2. Kristina Kliukeviciute   (LTU)  9.???
3. Nicole Gerdes            (GER)  9.300


1. Magdalena Brzeska        (GER)  9.525
2. Kristina Kliukeviciute   (LTU)  9.425
3. Viktoria Frater          (HUN)  9.400


1. Magdalena Brzeska        (GER)  9.450
2. Kristina Kliukeviciute   (LTU)  9.400
2. Andrea Sebestova         (CZE)  9.400

Was Brzeska getting better or was it the lack of competition? I
think it's both actually. Brzeska certainly looked pretty good
in all her events, she won the clubs despite dropping one of
her clubs. Kristina Kliukeviciute (who is commonly known as
"Kliu" in the Press... for tongue saving reasons <g>) had a
strange hobbit... she plays soccer! Anyway she's pretty good too,
finishing second behind Brzeska in all events.


Hoop / Clubs

 1. Germany          19.300
=2. Hungary          19.075
=2. Czech Republic   19.075


 1. Germany          19.300
 2. Hungary          19.125
 3. Czech Republic   18.850

Sherwin (from watching TV by EuroSport)


Date: Sat, 1 Oct 94 17:55:34 BST
From: ***
Subject: Birmingham Classics Mens comp

Birmingham Classics 1994


The competitors were:

Craig Heap            (GBR)
Szilveszter Csollany  (HUN)
Marius Urzica         (ROM)
Evegeny Gukov         (RUS)
Grigori Misutin       (UKR)
Zoltan Supola         (HUN)
Igor Korobchinsky     (UKR)
Ivan Ivankov          (BLR)
Lee McDermott         (GBR)
Dmitri Karbonenko     (RUS)

My knowledge on Mens gymnastics isn't too good so please excuse
me if I describe them not in too much detail or get the skill
names wrong, etc.


Grigori Misutin was the top performer here with a score of 9.700.
His routine started with a full-twisting double straight and
ending with a double straight. Ivankov scored 9.600 with a double
straight opening but 'only' a double pike ending.

Pommel Horse

Ahmm... I have no idea how to describe this! (sorry folks) Here's
a couple of top scores: Ivan Ivankov 9.750 and Marius Urzica 9.700.


Britain's Rings specialist Lee McDermott top scored here with 9.525.
Igor Korochinsky scored 9.300.


Those double fronts were quite incredible. Grigori Misutin scored a
massive 9.800 and Dmitri Karbonenko scored 9.700 with the same vault.
Korobchinsky scored 9.500 with a something different... (can't
remember what exactly...)

However, after the vaults, Grigori Misutin decided not to continue
with a persisting elbow injury that had been bugging him recently.
It was a dissapointment since he was the leader of the competition
at that stage.

Parallel Bars

Ivankov top the class here with 9.600, Korobchinsky 9.550 and the
impressive youngster Evgeny Gukov scored 9.500.

High Bar

The apparatus closest to me. Cool. The top routine scored the lowest
because Dmitri Karbonenko had a fall off his Kovac. He then got up
and re-did his routine from the start (with the Kovac). His routine
then seemed to go on forever (I measured it... well it was actually
47 seconds counting from re-mount after the fall). His routine was
complex with 2 full-twisting hop on top of the bar in a row followed
immediately by a sky high Geinger. Then lots of twsting moves
including a full-twist from the dislocate. It ended with a triple
back. He scored only 8.850 though with the fall.

Ivankov again top scored with 9.400. It included a Kovac; piked
Tkatchev; and a double twisting double straight dismount (STUCK!).

It was matched by Evgeny Gukov had a Kovac immediately into a
full-twisting hop; Tkatchev; full-twisting double straight dismount.
Also 9.400

Igor Korobchinsky had 2 piked Tkatchev in a row, and also a double
twisting double stright dismount. 9.350.

Britain's Criag Heap, although he finished last overall, was such
a determined guy it's quite incredible. No matter what happens, he
always gave 200%. Maybe that's why he finished a very good second
place overall in last week's British Nationals. Anyway his high bar
routine had a Tkachev/Geinger combination; and a full twisting
double stright dismount, and stuck too. His score was 9.200.


I don't have the full scores but here're what I've got:

 1. Ivan Ivankov       (BLR)  57.250
 2. Igor Korobchinsky  (UKR)  56.600
 3. Evgeny Gukov       (RUS)  55.400
 4. Dmitri Karbonenko  (RUS)  55.250

 7. Lee McDermott      (GBR)  54.175
 8. Craig Heap         (GBR)  53.950

Here endth my reports on the Birmingham Classic 1994. Feel free to
ask or comment if there's anything unclear about anything... or
whatever... eh what, am I making sense here...



Date: Sat, 1 Oct 94 17:54:57 BST
From: ***
Subject: Birmingham Classics Womens addition bits

Birmingham Classics 1994

The TV program of the meet had just been shown and here're a
few more points I can add to my last post, including some


I can see much clearly on TV than I could last night :-). The
top vaulter was actually Daniela Maraduca who scored 9.813 average
with her two 1/2-twist Yurhcneko into layout vaults. Milosivici
also used the same vault but her score was only 9.688 (Her second
vault was well stuck and it scored 9.775). Svetlana Khorkina with
her "different" vault of 1/2 turn on, 1/2 turn off with piked back
somi; scored 9.750 average (9.7 & 9.8). It was quite incredible that
she could score so highly with her tall frame. Zita Lusack did a
good 1/2-twist Yurchenko into layout which scored 9.700, but in her
second vault she sat on her landing and scored only 9.000 giving
an average of 9.350.

Uneven Bars

Khorkina and Piskoun as I said scored highest, both with 9.800. The
third highest was Milosovici who scored 9.750. Her routine BTW had
Geinger, Khatchev, and a double front with half turn dismount.
Annika Reeder's bars only scored 8.875, but she didn't fall over in
her dismount as I said, she only took a big pace forwards.


Top three scores were: Milosovici 9.650, Hatagan and Lusack 9.500 (which
was rather surprising for me since Zita Lusack's beam looked very simple
to me).

Khorkina's scores was 9.225 with a fall. It's another case of what
could've been.


Milosovici scored tops with 9.825. Her floor had completely different
choreography than before, with a fast moving music. She's been trying out
a few new floors lately and I dare say this one looked pretty good.

Second in floor came Annika Reeder with a very high 9.800! It was very
different than the other floor routines I feel, very individualistic.
And the tumbles were high and clean. Khorkina scored 9.725, she had a wry
smile throughout the routine (I thought my eyes were deceiving me last
night but I saw it more clearly on TV today and yes 'tis true) which was
rather strange with that classical music. Zita Lusack scored 9.650 for
her floor.

Overall Khorkina did well to finish second with a fall off beam. However,
Lavinia Milosovici looked real good again (shame she could never do that
during a major AA comp like Worlds or Europeans) and who knows, she can
yet do it maybe in Sabae?!!



Date: Sat, 1 Oct 94 20:10:00 BST
From: ***
Subject: Dmitri Karbonenko

Just a small point about Dmitri Karbonenko during the Birmingham
Classics... once the camera was pointing right up to him, and he
was quite happy at the time and he spoke a few words of French to
it! Don't ask me "Why French", he must be confused, old boy :-)

I like Dmitri!



Date: Sat, 1 Oct 94 21:11:19 BST
From: ***
Subject: German Worlds Qualifying

German World Championships 1994 Qualifying Results

The qualifications on who will make the German team to compete in
the Team World Championships in Dortmund had taken place on 1st
October, 1994 (for the mens anyway). I think the women
qualifications will take place tomorrow. They are being shown live
by DSF the German Sports channel.

Mens (Top Seven)

1. Valeri Belenki        (WKTV Stuttgart)        111.80
2. Marius Toba           (TK Hannover)           110.10
3. Oliver Walther        (SV Halle)              109.50
4. Jan-Peter Nikiferow   (SC Berlin)             109.15
5. Uwe Billerbeck        (TV Nellingen)          108.85
6. Mario Franke          (SV Halle)              107.85
7. Ralf Buchner          (TK Hannover)           106.40


PS There're a lot of gym activities this weekend!

PPS There's going to be a GER v UKR match on 29th October 1994
(Will be shown live by DSF)


Date: Sat, 01 Oct 94 19:54:22 EDT
From: ***
Subject: German Worlds Qualifying

>1. Valeri Belenki        (WKTV Stuttgart)        111.80
2. Marius Toba           (TK Hannover)           110.10

What does *this* tell us about the strength of the homegrown German team and
its future?



Date: Mon, 03 Oct 1994 13:20:52
From: ***
Subject: Gif's!

I have professional gifs of your favorite gymnast for sale!  Both
Junior and Senior teams. Email me direct for a list of gymnasts
and price list!

These are professional action gymnastics photos.

Thanks, FlashJim


Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 12:58:41 -0500
From: ***
Subject: Hello!... and help...

Hello All --

      My name is Gretchen.  I've been a subscriber for about a year
now.  This is the first time I've tried to post anything.  Well, here goes....
      I am 23 and I'm going to be graduating from college this spring.  (This
is where the "help..." part comes in.)  From reading mail on this list, I can
tell that many of you have some advanced studies in your past.  I am looking for
a place where I can study Chemistry in graduate school and still do gymnastics.
I was a gymnast when I was younger, and then I was forced to quit.  About 5 years ago I started coaching.  Then about 2 1/2 years ago I started doing gymnastics
again myself.  I really enjoy it and I get _way_ to stressed when I can't get to
the gym.  I know I'll never be a "serious gymnast," but I want to keep working
out.  So, if you know of anywhere that these two things would be possible, will  (sorry) you please send me private e-mail telling me where.  I don't care much
about location, or size.  I'm not particular about that -- I just want to go to
a good graduate school and still get to the gym. 
      Since I'll be in school, if there's a school that will let me just be a
part of their gym program (and probably not compete) that could be cool, because
I am assuming, it would be cheaper than a gym.  However, right now I'm in a gym
and I like it, so that's OK too.  A gym where something could be worked out to
coach some in exchange for being able to be coached would also be cool.
      I have coached from 2 years up through level 7, and also high school.
      Anyways, that's the "help..." portion.  Now for the introo. portion, I'm
from (in college in) Sioux Falls, SD.  I will have several degrees when I grad.
this spring.  They are in:  Chemistry (first love), math, physics, computer sci,
philosophy, religion, and goverment.  I may have a minor too, we'll have to see
if I get "senioritis" and get lazy in the spring.  So, since I've told you my
degrees, I guess you can kinda' see what I'm interested in.  I also like some
other sports, besides gym, and I enjoy music too.
      Well, anyway, this letter has gotten kinda' long and I'm sorry about
that.  So, I'll stop now.  I will appreciate any responses I can get.

Gretchen --


Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 20:19:37 GMT
From: ***
Subject: New Subscriber, Introduction Of

I've just finished reading through the intros file (thanks Anil).
Fascinating stuff. Demographically, the average gymn-subscriber
seems to be a twenty-something computing graduate who did two months
gym, stopped and is still pining for the chalk. Sound familiar?

Me? Well my name's Frances Robinson, I'm nineteen and I live in London.
I'm *not* studying computing (or anything else) at university: I
qualified and was offered a bundle of places, but I was sick of having
to take exams. Luckily, I was able to walk into a pretty good p.a./
secretarial job, which is what I'm doing now. Thing is, the work
involves a lot of traveling round, so my mailings may be a bit
sporadic. Apologies in advance.

I did gymnastics (artistic) three nights a week from age seven up until
a couple of years ago. Decent club standard is the best I can describe
my level. Favourite piece? The beam, no question. And that goes for
watching as much as doing. All-time favourite athletes? Shaposhnikova,
Grozdova, Ricna (beam-specialists all, note), Omelianchik, Dobre,
Strazeva. Basically I go for the "Russian" style.

My knowledge of the technical side of the sport is pretty limited, and
work keeps me from getting to events much. I even find catching stuff on
tv difficult, so you guys will have to be my lifeline. I just hope I can
contribute something that's not either out-of-date or off-the-wall.

P.S. If there are two hundred (approx) subscribers to gymn, how come
there are only eighty autobios (I've just counted them) in the file?

Couldn't be that there are some slackers out there, could it?



Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 22:39:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***
Subject: New Subscriber, Introduction Of

Nice to meet you Fran, I'm Steve. I am a coach at LaFleur's of Tampa, FL.
I takes all kinds.


Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 00:40:27 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Olympic Fever Story

I finally read the story and arrived at the conclusion that Chelle's biggest
problem was her mother.  How many times did she mention forcing Chelle to
stay in gymnastics ("you do it because we've paid so much") without
reflecting on it for a second?  The ambition of the *USGF* "blinded" her to
Chelle's best interests? (and then for the rest of the story it was Frank's
ambition.)  Get real...   I knew a number of parents like that when I was a
gymnast, making the very same accusations against coaches, judges, and other
parents, getting involved with the technical aspects of coaching (though I've
never heard of any parents making their kid do stuff at home until the
parents thought it was good enough.  Child abuse).  It was unbelievable how
warped some of their opinions were.  The parents I knew didn't have the
Olympics at stake either, and I imagine that the distortions can only get
worse the higher the stakes.

I'm sure some of it is true.  There are things in the story I wouldn't be
surprised at at all.  But I would love to hear Chelle's and the other
gymnasts' versions (Patrick, are you there?  I'd like to hear what Tina
Snowden would have to say).  And I have other questions.  After all of that,
Chelle finally went to the Olympics -- and then proceeded to stay in elite
gymnastics at least three more years (through '91, which is when the book was
started).  If the whole thing was so horrible and was all for the Olympics,
why'd she stick around -- why did they spend the $$ for her to stick around
-- for three more years following the Olympics?  Possible answer: Chelle is
now competing for Oklahoma -- are mom and dad forcing her to do it for the
scholarship, or is it possible Chelle really doesn't dislike the gymnastics
itself after all?

Only a couple of many questions...


Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 15:20:18 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Question

Hi all, I'm writing a piece for language (8th grade) thats called How far
should a coach go to produce a champion?  If anyone has info or dirt on
certian coaches, e-mail me.
Thanks!              Anne


Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:29:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***
Subject: Question

> Hi all, I'm writing a piece for language (8th grade) thats called How far
> should a coach go to produce a champion?  If anyone has info or dirt on
> certian coaches, e-mail me.

Sorry to bring this up in response to your particular question, but here
comes a long awaited flame.  I *really* don't like this use of the word
"produce".  It sounds like you are referring to a bunch of
factory-chickens, and I think that's one of the implications.  Athletes
are not "produced" from a factory - they get where they are through a
tremendous devotion of time and effort, through the support of those
around them, etc.  Certainly the coach has a lot to do with the process,
but I think it's wrong to assume that the entire thing is an assembly line.

Now some would disagree with me, based on some of the techniques we've
discussed recently - some of the problems we've listed, etc.  I agree -
there appears to be a tendancy on some people's parts to try and turn it
into exactly that - an assembly line.  But I don't think that's the point
of all this.  Your wording displays your bias - when you write about
gymnastics, you don't think of it as the effort of the athlete, nor their
success, but that of the coach.  The choice of words "info or dirt"
certainly makes me feel that you seem to disapprove of this, but your
post is more likely to result in flames than intelligent responses.

This is a forum for the discussion of gymnastics from pretty much all
points of view (even mine) - hopefully it's not one where we're reduced
to smearing the slime that seems to enjoy sticking to everything else in
life, and I really don't appreciate your message, which seems to actively
encourage and support such mud-hurling.  Maybe you didn't intend it that
way, but it certainly came across that way.

Please take some time to get the feel of a group before participating,
don't just rush straight in.  We just finished off a multi-week mud
hurling session a week ago on this topic, and I think that we're all glad
it's over, and I DON'T think we want it started.

Putter.  Putter.  The flame stops here.

Glad to have you aboard, hope you enjoy the list.



Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:48:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***
Subject: Question

> Sorry to bring this up in response to your particular question, but here
> comes a long awaited flame.  I *really* don't like this use of the word
> "produce".  It sounds like you are referring to a bunch of
> factory-chickens, and I think that's one of the implications.  Athletes
>  Your wording displays your bias - when you write about
> gymnastics, you don't think of it as the effort of the athlete, nor their
> success, but that of the coach.  The choice of words "info or dirt"
> certainly makes me feel that you seem to disapprove of this, but your
> post is more likely to result in flames than intelligent responses.
> Please take some time to get the feel of a group before participating,
> don't just rush straight in.  We just finished off a multi-week mud
> hurling session a week ago on this topic, and I think that we're all glad
> it's over, and I DON'T think we want it started.
> Putter.  Putter.  The flame stops here.
Slow down Cowboy, you're having way too much of a trip here. I didn't see
anything wrong with the message you drew exception to, but I do see
something wrong with your response. While claiming to want to discourage
flaming, you subtly flamed the heck out of that person.
      For your information, much of coaching can be a production line,
and if you try to reexamine many high level gyms in your area, you will
see that. Programs start of at pre-school levels and every kid must pass
through certain stages to attain a high level of competency. Right or
wrong, this process can easily be compared to a production line.
      Don't forget that gyms are a bussiness, their product is to mold
gymnastics behavior.

      Your suggestion that the person lurk before posting is way out of
line and I hope you will never apply that to me. Sure it is common sense
to lurk first, but I prefer to decide what I want to read instead of
having SOMEONE ELSE decide who should be allowed to post here.
      The person was asking for information, on a very relevant subject,
I though, how far should a coach go? Remember that the people coaches
work with are children, and these children, whether they understand it or
not are giving up an average lifestyle to train seriously for a very
special goal. Is it possible that coaches may begin to loose sight
of the forest for the trees?
      Everyone has a bias, that is their right. If I don't like the post,
I delete it and forget it.

      Remember the first ammendment.



Date: Sun, 02 Oct 1994 15:09:08 -0700 (MST)
From: ***
Subject: Recent traffic problems

      My message that I received from the list on Friday concerning the
oral agreements and letters-of-intent with the NCAA was actually composed
and sent out over a week ago. Is there something wrong with the mailing
list or my local mailer? Has anyone else had this problem?
      Along the same lines, I requested an address change from Robyn
and mentioned it to Rachelle over six weeks ago. My new address is:
      I don't know what happened - perhaps the local mailer
malfunctioned again.
      Someone asked what the purpose of an oral committment was. In
many heavily-recruited sports, it allows an athlete to commit to a school
outside of the fall and spring signing dates so that they may be left in
peace and other schools may then pursue other avaliable athletes.
      Whoa - first Nancy picking the Goodwill Games winner by her last
name and then Amanda's pick on the Jenny Thompson move, I'd say we're
much more reliable than any 1-900 psychic line. Hey everybody, Will I
meet the mate-o'-my-dreams soon?                --Cara


Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 00:39:58 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Request for info

Greetings all!

For my sports law class I'm going to be doing a paper having to do with
collegiate competition as a training ground for Olympians and it's going to
involve some comparison to other countries' systems.  I'm focusing on
volleyball, swimming, and gymnastics (men's).  If anyone has info or can help
me find some on how other countries produce their Olympic volleyball players,
swimmers, and gymnasts, it would be much appreciated.  Thanks!



Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 19:23:24 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Silly Mini-Trivia Questions:  Hair

Here's a silly mini-trivia change of pace.  Enjoy!

Thanks to Adriana for #1, #2 and Beth for #3, #4, #5

1.  Who was the only Soviet to wear a bun at the '87 Rotterdam Worlds?

2.  How about the only Romanian (see above)?  [and no, it was NOT Marius

3.  What gymnast won the AA at every MAJOR int'l meet she was in (except one)
when she had long hair in 1 or 2 ponytails, and failed to win the AA whenever
she cut her hair short?

4.  Name two gymnasts at '91 Worlds whose bushy ponytails were really the
results of perms.

5.  Which two US gymnasts recently dyed their hair (two different shades of)

Answers in a day or two! 



Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 12:33:47 EDT
From: ***
Subject: strike; Thompson; Karolyi's gym

The Dallas Morning News reports the following:


"The wheels aren't falling of the Romanian gymastics marchine after all."
 Nadia says athletes not upset with gov't and not intending to boycott World
Team Trials.  She says its primarily Octavian Belu's fault, he was upset
because payments required too much paperwork and signatures. 

Lavinia Milosivici is owned the most money by the gov't, but Nadia says, ". .
. these kids make a good living.  They get paid a lot."


Lavinia Milosivici and Gina Gogean are traveling to Nadia's house in Norman,
Oklahoma.  Then on Tuesday, October 4th, they will arrive in Houston to join
Svetlana Boguinskaya, Kim Zmeskal, and Jenny Thompson in the grand opening of
Karolyi's new elite training facility.

When asked if Romanians will trian with Karolyi, Nadia said it wasn't likely
the Romanian Federation would go along with it.


It was Bela Karolyi who initially contacted the Thompson's to try and get
Jenny back.  She didn't leave Nunno's due to any kind of dissatisfaction.
 "It was a family decision" says her father.


Date: Sun, 02 Oct 1994 19:26:56 -0700 (MST)
From: ***
Subject: training conditions

>      What Connie said about the Romanians' training conditions reminded me of
> the article (also in this month's IG) about Elena Piskun and how her gym
> doesn't even HAVE a floor-ex mat at all! I have so much respect for her that
> she's able to perform at such a high level when she must not be able to
> practice her floor routine very much. I know she can practice the tumbling on
> the vault runway and I suppose she can do the dance moves somewhere, but to not
> have a mat to practice the whole routine on, using the whole floor area, has
> got to be TOUGH. What an athlete!

      And Elena's made floor finals at both worlds she's been too...  Wow



End of gymn Digest