gymn Digest                 Sat,  5 Nov 94       Volume 3 : Issue  37

Today's Topics:
                           Amy Chow Article
                 Fairness of team selection (4 msgs)
                   gif site for gymnastics pictures
                        Jnr. GBR v ROM preview
                  Need Trivia Questions-Vault (M&W)
                   new gym address for Tanya Maiers
                     New Gym In Houston  (3 msgs)
                               roundoff
                            roundoff (fwd)
                          Seinfeld (3 msgs)
                    Shannon and Worlds... (2 msgs)

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list. 

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Date: Wed, 2 Nov 94 17:02:53 PST
From: ***@sol.metaware.com
Subject: Amy Chow Article

There was an article about Amy Chow in the San Jose Mercury News today.  I
was so excited to actually find a gymnastics article, I figured I should
share it with all of you.  I'll paraphrase as best I can (sorry if it's a bit
disjointed) :

NOTE:
This is about half.  I'll do the other half tomorrow.  I had a lease signed to
move into a new house on Saturday, and the landlord called saying something
happened!  So now I need to go look at a new place.  Gr!

San Jose Mercury News, Wednesday, Nov. 2, 1994
----------------------------------------------

Amy turned 16 in May and says she "doesn't have time" to learn how to drive. 
Since August, she has placed fifth at the national gymnastics championships,
fourth in qualifying at the national team trials, and Nov. 15-20 she'll
compete at the world championships in Dortmund, Germany.

Bela Karolyi says 'She is one of the most promising girls leading up the
1996 Olympic Games.  I believe in a beautiful upcoming gymnastics career for
her and I definately see her as one of the successful Olympic team members."

Amy trains 32-33 hours a week at San Jose's West Valley Gymnastics.  Most
mornings her father drives her from home in San Jose to Castilleja School in
Palo Alto, where she is a 4.0 student.  Mom picks her up in the afternoon
to go to the gym. 

The 4ft. 10in., 78 pound gymnast studies pre-calculus, psychology, American
literature and chemistry.  She says "I don't think it's hectic....If I
have a day without anything to do, it gets kinda boring."  In addition, Amy
also plays the piano.  She has won annual honors recitals (Command Performance)
at the state mucis teachers' association.  She also was a diver until last
summer.

Amy started gymnastics at 3 when her mom was told Amy was too young for ballet.
Her coach, Mark Young, knew that she was different by the time she was 5. 
There has been some pressure to move her to Karolyi's gym.  At a meet about 5
years ago, Bela came up to Amy and said "You ought to come back to Houston to
my gym." Amy, however, wanted to stay with her coach, Mark.

This was a big decision for Amy, being a long time fan of Mary Lou Retton. 
Amy says "It was her spirit.....some gymnasts look so concerned.  They look
very nervous.  She looked calm and ready to go.  She looked like she
was having fun."

.......



--Robin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Nov 94 12:38:46 GMT
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Fairness of team selection

I don't know about all these team selection business. For most other
Sports (especially team sports) there is simply a manager/coach who
picks his/her team for "matches". I know gymnastics "matches" don't
come round very often and selection processes are very important but
I think the present approach of a selection committee is quite adequate.
The committee "should" pick whoever is best for the team (not saying
they would) and people like Miller not only will act as a leader
for the younger ones to look upon but her "experience" will also
count a lot in major competitions. I guess the shear presence of her
will have lifted the team especially if some of the other team members
look up on her as their "model" and thus will give more effort if they
know they're in the same team as their "model". No matter how the team
was chosen, whether by trials or rankings or selection committees, it
is bound to be under criticism especially if the competition doesn't
go well...

--

Sherwin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Nov 94 13:33:58 GMT
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Fairness of team selection

>No matter how the team
>was chosen, whether by trials or rankings or selection committees, it
>is bound to be under criticism especially if the competition doesn't
>go well...

Selection processes will always come under scrutiny, but I beleive if the
system is fair to everybody there is less cause for criticism.

Basically yes you are damned if you do and damned if you dont, but people
wont take you seriously at all if they see people moving the goalposts
all the time.

Clive

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Nov 94 10:44:52 EST
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: Fairness of team selection

Clive writes:
>But in anycase picking a team to represent your country from just the rankings
>isnt a good idea, the rankings themselves are a good idea dont get me
>wrong, but I mean ok look at it this way say if a gymnast failed to win a
>major competition because h/she momentarily had a lapse of concentration such
>that they got a bad score and then finished last in that event, but
>this wasnt a true representation of their ability if they were borderline on
>the rankings a poor performance could mean the difference between being
>included in the team or not. Now that adds pressure, and thats not so good.

>If you want to pick the best team, then the trial system is the fairest
>way to go but you have to stick to that trial system otherwise its
>pointless doing it.

I don't want to be contentious,  because I agree that the trial system
is fair, but I think it's fair to point out that the trial system
can also put pressure on someone who's been injured or is injured
(Strug and Roethlisberger are recent examples) but has only this
chance to make it.  As for one bad meet messing up your chances:
If you're in at least 3 meets that count in the scoring, and
a median score is used, your worst meet won't count.  Trimmed means
(throw out the highest and lowest scores and average the rest,
which is essentially how diving is scored) are also a way of
correcting against this problem.  And the argument goes both ways:
If your performance at trials (or Nationals and trials) is all
that counts, then one bad competition can ruin your chances of
making it on the team.

But as I said before, there's nothing wrong with using trials
(or any reasonably objective system), as long as the results
are not tampered with by whim later.

>>Kathy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Nov 94 11:08:08 GMT
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Fairness of team selection

>I don't want to be contentious,  because I agree that the trial system
>is fair, but I think it's fair to point out that the trial system
>can also put pressure on someone who's been injured or is injured
>(Strug and Roethlisberger are recent examples) but has only this
>chance to make it.

Fair point in those cases the trials arent helpful to them but its
unfortunate you cant please everybody all the time. Selection process will
always be unfair to somebody, the very nature of them precludes absolute
fairness to everyone, but the trial system although it is a high pressure
meet, is nearer to the environment of the competition that the selceted
gymnasts would be facing, and I also believe that although the pressure
on that one competition isnt that good, its alot better than having the
pressure to compete absolutely consistently throughout a series of meets.

>As for one bad meet messing up your chances:
>If you're in at least 3 meets that count in the scoring, and
>a median score is used, your worst meet won't count.  Trimmed means
>(throw out the highest and lowest scores and average the rest,
>which is essentially how diving is scored) are also a way of
>correcting against this problem.

 Well if your going to be chucking out the worst and best
results thats not a ranking system as such, thats more of an averaging
system and thus your entering the people who are most consistent,
sounds ok doesnt it, but its not as good as it sounds the averaging of
all the results could actually produce a team of consistent scorers but
who dont actually score high enough in any one event to win. The
nature of the competitions that the team are to be entered into
are such that you are down to basically just one competition you cant
afford, if you want to win that is, to have a team of gymnasts that cant
muster anything like the scores that are needed to win

>And the argument goes both ways:
>If your performance at trials (or Nationals and trials) is all
>that counts, then one bad competition can ruin your chances of
>making it on the team.

Yes although one part of the selection process must be to see if the
gymnasts can handle that one major competition pressure.

>But as I said before, there's nothing wrong with using trials
>(or any reasonably objective system), as long as the results
>are not tampered with by whim later.

totally in agreement there.

Clive

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 15:40:47 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@asu.edu
Subject: gif site for gymnastics pictures

Hi all,
      This is just to inform you that many pictures are now available
at ftp.sunet.se (pub/pictures/sports/gymnastics).  For awhile only one
was there...  Now there are over fifty.  Please go see them!!!

Amanda

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Nov 94 23:45:26 GMT
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Jnr. GBR v ROM preview

A penpal phoned me today telling me that there is a GBR v ROM
Juniors match tomorrow (Saturday) at Portsmouth, England. Amongst
the competitors advertised include Alexandra Marinescu the Junior
European Champion! I jumped at the chance to see her so I'll
be popping down there tomorrow to watch the meet. Will write
something about it when I get back.

Sherwin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 03:16:53 -0500
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Need Trivia Questions-Vault (M&W)

I'd love to get one more trivia set in before I leave for vacation.  The
topic is Vault (Men & Women).  Please send your questions (with answers)
directly to me via private e-mail ASAP.

Thanks

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 12:54:53
From: ***@by-line.win.net
Subject: new gym address for Tanya Maiers
 

Hey Gymn,

I traded some photo's with Tanya at the Nationals and have
some more photo's for her and her new coach!  Dummy me!
lost her gym address!  Would some kind Gymn. person,
Please help us and share the address with us! 

Thanks alot! 
FlashJim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 19:10:45 -0500
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: New Gym In Houston

>From the AP (and me) ...

Rita Brown has opened her new gym in Houston. I believe this a temporary site
she talked about at Nat'ls and not the completed mega-building - it will be
the largest training gym in the world - which won't be livable until at least
January. This will dwarf Karolyi's newest Houston facilty (Cypress academy is
also in Houston) This article quoted Rita as saying  "I think competition is
good for everyone" but when I talked to her in August she said that she
"wasn't in compeition with Bela" and "hoped he didn't see it that way." She
said choose Houston since it's become "a gymnastics center" and is hoping to
host teams from all over the world in her new gym. "It'll be a great place
for invites and traning camps." The article says that Bruce, Beathard, and
Bhardwaj - her 3 National team members - are now training in Houston but then
again the article says that Rita was the assistant coach in Barcelona (Steve
was) so make your own choice on what to believe.

-Susan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Nov 94 20:00:09 EST
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: New Gym In Houston

Susan writes about Brown's new gym:
>for invites and traning camps." The article says that Bruce, Beathard, and
>Bhardwaj - her 3 National team members - are now training in Houston but then

Is there some significance to the fact that she and her best gymnasts
share the same last initial?  Maybe they should call themselves the
Killer B(ee)s :-).

Speaking of coaches, it was nice to read more evidence that Amy Chow is
a level-headed person who wants to enjoy her gymnastics.  I'm sure
that her coach had something to do with that.  I wonder about
Bela's attempted solicitation.  Has he decided to return completely
to training senior elites, and not just returning "old timers"?

>>Kathy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 12:37:24 -0500
From: ***@orl.mmc.com
Subject: New Gym In Houston

|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

>> The article says that Bruce, Beathard, and
>> Bhardwaj - her 3 National team members - are now training in Houston

Yes, the current facility is temporary. Located about 10 minutes
fron the "Real" gym, to open in january.

As far as the 3 "B"'s, I have seen them around the Altamonte Gym
recently, so I'm not sure that they are training in Houston.

BTW
Jenni Bethard has given a verbal commitment to attend Georgia
next year! It looks like the Bulldogs are going to be a tough
team to beat for the next few years!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 02:53:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@delphi.com
Subject: roundoff

>: Basic skill.  How is it really done?  I was always told that one should
>: put one's hands down roughly in a line parallel to the direction of
>: travel (in other words, do a quarter twist)...

>: Watching a number of elite gymnasts in slo-mo, however, they seem to
>: invariably do the entire half turn before their hands ever touch...

>: At any rate, are those elites just demonstrating personal technique,
>: or is this the best way to do a roundoff?  Inquiring minds want to
>: know...

>        Once again (like twisting and other skills), there is more than one
>*good* technique to doing a skill.

Especially for different gymnasts with different body types, different
abilities, etc.

> I believe this technique is to
>allow you to stretch more into the roundoff, before your hands hit (i.e.
>you stretch to your first hand, but continue foward to your second hand)
>Stretching forward implies/requires speed, which you can't have too much of
>when tumbling a roundoff.  On the other hand, turning more before the hand
>placement (one would think) would allow a better push and therefore faster
>in getting your upper body moving back into the next move (99% chance this
>is a flip-flop). 

Not quite. The greater the turn, the straighter you can keep your arms for
instance, allowing one to use the compliancy ( up and down movement of the
sprung floor) instead of the compliancy of your bent arms and muscles.

As sprung floors have gotten more compliant (4" of spring now with usually
1.5" of surface foam) gymnasts have altered their technique to take
advantage of it, by tumbling with straighter arms and legs. You can block a
sprung floor instead of pushing off.

>        So believe your coach, because both ways are right, and I'm not
>convinced either has an advantage over the other.

Neither is wrong, true. The straight arm - straight leg school of thought
does have the virtue of using the surface better and preserving a bit more
of your forward speed (the blocking action is directed down and back towards
the begining of the tumbling pass,) but is not always practicle (you need a
bit of room to run into it to make it work well,) or all individuals. I have
seen great male tumblers do it both ways, but the great women tumblers tend
to lock everything up straight ( I said TEND, there are always exceptions!)
IMHO the women are far better technically than the men, perhaps because they
have to be. After all, these floors are designed to accomodate much heavier
male gymnasts and have to be a bit hard for the women in comparison.

>: p.s. $1.25 to Dave Litwin's favorite charity (aka Yogurt Park) if he
>: can make an ascii sketch of a roundoff.  (That should surely drive
>: him bonkers...)

>        A $1.25 won't get you much more than something looking like a
>cartwheel (you didn't say how good it had to be).  If you want to
>'commission' ASCII artwork of the quality need to represent a roundoff
>you'll have to do better than that :)

You betcha. Now in ANSI.....

bjcorr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:48:35 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@minerva.cis.yale.edu
Subject: roundoff (fwd)

> Neither is wrong, true. The straight arm - straight leg school of thought
> does have the virtue of using the surface better and preserving a bit more
> of your forward speed (the blocking action is directed down and back towards
> the begining of the tumbling pass,) but is not always practicle (you need a
> bit of room to run into it to make it work well,) or all individuals. I have
> seen great male tumblers do it both ways, but the great women tumblers tend
> to lock everything up straight ( I said TEND, there are always exceptions!)
> IMHO the women are far better technically than the men, perhaps because they
> have to be. After all, these floors are designed to accomodate much heavier
> male gymnasts and have to be a bit hard for the women in comparison.

I'm not sure the straight arm & leg technique requires that much room. 
The men use it very effectively, and they aren't allowed to take more than
three steps in their tumbling runs.  The Soviets practically just
hurdle (I'm not saying they're the only ones; I haven't really noticed
others specifically).

:)
Adriana

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 12:57:12 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Seinfeld

     Anyone catch last night's "Seinfeld" in which Jerry went out with a
"Romanian gymnast who was a silver medalist in the 1984 Olympics"? Well, the
actress looked nothing like Szabo, and the show gave her the name "Katya"
(which is Russian) instead of "Kati," but it was still nice to have our sport
turn up on a top 10 show! Also, someone DID do some research, because Kramer's
commentary when watching a tape of 1984 was very good - he had gym terminology
down pat. And later in the show he hurt himself by trying to do a reverse hecht
off his couch. Anyway, I thought it was all pretty amusing! :)

Beth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 15:21:32 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@asu.edu
Subject: Seinfeld

I for one saw it and couldn't believe it...  It was mighty funny.  Yeah,
Kramer new his tricks...  For those of you that didn't see it it went
something like this "Giant swing... good form...  reverse hecht,  kip,
giant swing...  full-in double back and she sticks it!" was his
commentary.  Though one glaring innaccuracy was that "Katya won a silver
at the 84 Olympics"...  Maybe they were hoping to imply individual,
because  she would have also left LA with a gold too...

But pretty good.  Did you help them out David? ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Nov 94 14:03 PST
From: ***@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Seinfeld

yeah, I laughed pretty hard.  The idea of Szabo doing a full-in off
bars is pretty amusing...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 02:53:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@delphi.com
Subject: Shannon and Worlds...

>Ben writes ...
>>So, we need Shannon, for example, to win.<<

>Well let me just get this out of the way right now so everyone can blast me
>up front ... Shannon or no Shannon the yes has half a shot in hell of
>winning
>a gold medal. Romania is going to be gunning for this one and if they falter
>Russia is right there. In fact if we were talking talent and difficulty
>alone
>Russia has the edge but Romania is better disiplined and less likely to miss
>(also more likely to play it safe). If compos were part of the final Russia
>would have a better shot. My early prediction (based on history not having
>seen either Russia or Romo do these compos) is that Russia will have a slim
>lead (provided they hit) after the compo optional portion and Romania will
>win in the "new-life" optional only section.

Whoa girl! Hold on here, what is the more important issue here, whether or
not we win a gym meet, or how we treat our athletes? Are you telling me that
cheating Kara out of a life long dream for a better chance at a team medal
is justified? And I thought you people thought us coaches cruel and
nearsighted in regards to the kids! Yes, Romania and Russia are lurking
right there, So? You have my admiration for your tactical analysis of the
situation, but aren't you going a bit over board? I think it's far more
important that we treat our athletes with fairness and respect than play
dream team gymnastics with them in an attempt to beat Russia.

>The US will be lucky to get a bronze and Shannon Miller ain't gonna' change
>that fact one little bit. The total lack of depth within the gymnastics
>world will be the deciding factor.

Wait a minute, are you changing your mind here? Now you say we DON'T need
Shannon?

>>A fellow in a movie once said "never put passion before principal, even if
you win, you lose."<<

>Nice idea but let's be realistic here ... winning *is* good. This is a
>competition and a competition is, by it's very definition, about winning.

Winning is good, yes. But not by any means possible, then the winning loses
it's meaning. And competition is about competing, about the struggle, not
the outcome. Winning only gives direction, a goal to strive for. By the tone
of your remarks I can only hope you are not coaching any gymnasts yourself,
as a matter of fact, I am quite certain of it.

> If the US win's a medal  - and the women probably deserve a bronze fair
>and square - let it be on their merits and not on more abstract matters.

My point exactly, let it rest on their merits, not the meddeling of others.
We had a trials, let the results stand.
>-Susan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 09:40:42 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@minerva.cis.yale.edu
Subject: Shannon and Worlds...

[Susan's analysis of who is likely to win at Dortmund]

> Whoa girl!

Sounds rather like you're addressing a horse here, now, doesn't it...

Moving along...

Hold on here, what is the more important issue here, whether or
> not we win a gym meet, or how we treat our athletes? Are you telling me that
> cheating Kara out of a life long dream for a better chance at a team medal
> is justified? And I thought you people thought us coaches cruel and
> nearsighted in regards to the kids! Yes, Romania and Russia are lurking
> right there, So? You have my admiration for your tactical analysis of the
> situation, but aren't you going a bit over board? I think it's far more
> important that we treat our athletes with fairness and respect than play
> dream team gymnastics with them in an attempt to beat Russia.
>
> >The US will be lucky to get a bronze and Shannon Miller ain't gonna' change
> >that fact one little bit. The total lack of depth within the gymnastics
> >world will be the deciding factor.
>
> Wait a minute, are you changing your mind here? Now you say we DON'T need
> Shannon?

I think you totally misinterpreted Susan.  She said, and I agree, that
there's no way the US has a chance at winning this one, Shannon or no
Shannon.  Then she shifted from that subject into who *is* likely to win
and how, and that had nothing to do with the US selection process and how
it should be run in order to maximize the US's chances of beating Russia
or anyone else, because she already said the US has no such chance.  So
she wasn't at all changing her mind at the end; she was just restating
wat she said at the beginning -- the highest the US will finish is 3rd,
whether Shannon is on the team or not (of course, and this is my
comment, not Susan's, without her they might not even finish that high). 
I don't think what you quoted was at all intended to say that they should
mess with the selection process in order to try to beat Russia and Romania.
 
> >>A fellow in a movie once said "never put passion before principal, even if
> you win, you lose."<<
>
> >Nice idea but let's be realistic here ... winning *is* good. This is a
> >competition and a competition is, by it's very definition, about winning.
>
> Winning is good, yes. But not by any means possible, then the winning loses
> it's meaning. And competition is about competing, about the struggle, not
> the outcome. Winning only gives direction, a goal to strive for.

I believe these two are not mutually exclusive.  Competition is about
both.

> > If the US win's a medal  - and the women probably deserve a bronze fair
> >and square - let it be on their merits and not on more abstract matters.
>
> My point exactly, let it rest on their merits, not the meddeling of others.
> We had a trials, let the results stand.

Now, as to the results of Trials and Kara Fry.  I'm not sure I believe
Kara is getting cheated out of anything.  The original process provided
that Shannon only had to show she was ready.  She didn't have to compete
in Trials to start with.  Does it really make that much of a difference
that she didn't actually perform at Trials if they know she's ready by
some other means?  The "results" in her case are the same; shouldn't
they stand?  Also, it's not like everyone didn't know Shannon
was around and that she was getting special exceptions.  The same thing
happens when it is decided to place an athlete who wasn't able to compete
at Trials because of injury on the team.  The other athletes and coaches
know about petitions and know they may get bumped.  Also, who says USAG
wasn't trying to protect Shannon from getting screwed over (I mean in
addition to serving their interest in the best possible team.  And I'm
not saying they don't or shouldn't have other interests)?  I
find it difficult to believe Shannon isn't interested in this meet.  Does
she have any way of getting around her coach's decisions without
irreparably injuring her relationship with him and thus jeopardizing her
future success?  Of course, I don't know whether she wants to go or not
(maybe someone here knows and can fill us in?), but if she does and hadn't
been able to, she would be getting cheated as much or more than Kara is.

The process we used in Puerto Rico provided that the top four spots would
be decided at trials and the coaches and officials would choose the other
two (mainly in order to provide for injured gymnasts).  I think this is a
pretty decent process, because it combines trials and "arbitrary"
selection and announces it up front.


:)
Adriana

"Consistency is the key to greatness"

                 -- Jackie Joyner-Kersee

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End of gymn Digest
******************************