GYMN-L Digest - 3 May 1995 to 4 May 1995
There
are 19 messages totalling 551 lines in this
issue.
Topics of the day:
1. One arm (2)
2. One arm
giants on unevens.
3. Chinese Gymnast at Visa Cup: A
Discussion. (3)
4. Koleshnikova (2)
5. DTB-Pokal RSG individuals (Timoshenko
interview)
6. introduction
7. One arm moves and their risk factor (2)
8. Introduction (2)
9. Kolesnikova
10. stanford
girls coach fired (2)
11.
Negative Coaching
12. I am not stupid :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 23:55:43
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
One arm
Hi everyone
One arm giants are now worth
"A" value but 2 in a row are a "B"
A gienger is a
"C" and a 1 arm gienger
is a "C"
If you do a 1 arm
giant - 1 arm gienger that is a "D" . The value
raise
only comes because there is a full 1 arm giant before the one arm
release. It must
be imediate 1 arm 1arm release without any tap of the
one
hand on the bar. I only know this because I performed the
skill.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 00:32:08
-0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject:
Re: One arm giants on unevens.
>
You know, the FIG could just do what they did with men's vault:
> Make
no differences between one arm and two arm skills. That should
> discourage the 9 yr olds of the
world from learning 1 arm Tkatchevs to
> immediate one arm deltchevs.
I
don't think the discussion was about how they might discourage these
skills (what you're suggesting is actually exactly what the
judges at the
meet did), but about whether they
should be discouraged or not.
:)
Adriana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 01:05:33
-0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject:
Re: Chinese Gymnast at Visa Cup: A Discussion.
> >
Subject:
Re: Chinese Gymnast at Visa Cup: A Discussion.
> > I don't
believe any of that tommyrot. But understand the following:
> >
>
> 1. The determination of whether a move should be banned is made by
the
> > technical committee of the FIG, not
a camorra of judges at the meet where it
> > is
introduced.
> >
> > 2. The determination of what
constitutes an overly dangerous move, and
> > therefore
subject to a penalty, is ALSO made, conincidentally,
by that
> > selfsame technical
committee.
> >
> > 3. No determination has been made
(except by some of my fellow outspoken
> > gymners) that one-armed moves on bars is overly
dangerous.
> >
> > 4. Therefore any new move involving
virtuosity, originality, and risk should
> > be
judged on those criteria ONLY until such time as the FIG technical
>
> committee determines in either regular or
extraordinary session that they
are
>
> in fact too dangerous.
> >
>
> 5. We are all aware of the above.
> >
> > 6. None of
this changes any of my previous arguments.
> >
> > 7. QED, Meng and her fellows got screwed.
> >
>
> 8. IMHO, this is because the USAG was running the meet, and they had
no
> > intention of allowing their charges
to be upstaged on national TV by the
> > Chinese second string, many
of whom are every bit the equal to America's
> > finest.
>
I agree with most of this. However,
if the technical committee has not
> yet been
asked to evaluate a new move, it cannot make a determination
> of level of danger or of scoring value. Your argument would hold if
> every new move were required to be submitted to the technical
committee
> for review and subsequently
reviewed *before* being used in a meet.
> Judges would the have the
scoring values on "approved" moves, and
> "unapproved" moves would be banned. Somehow, I don't think this is
> what you meant.
>
> Your point number 8 may
well be valid. The Chinese gymnasts
at VISA
> were great. And yes, they got ripped. But did they submit these
> moves for review?
If not, your #1 and #2 don't fly.
Skills don't get submitted to
the FIG until a gymnast is going to perform
them
at Worlds or Olympics. At other
meets, they just go to the meet
technical director
and judges, who make their own provisional
determination. The Chinese gymnasts did indeed submit
the skills to
them (they have to if the skills are
to have any value when they perform
them in the
meet, and also, it was by submitting them that there was the
controversy of the ratings assigned). If I understand David, he's saying
the judges at these meets should do provisional ratings
based strictly
on the actual difficulty of the
skill, rather than on policy considerations
that
belong only at the FIG level. There
is no regular procedure that I
know of for getting
FIG approval and ratings outside of Worlds or
Olympics. I don't know if it would be possible to
ask for ratings from
the FIG in some sort of
extraordinary session. One
wrinkle: was Jackie
Fie at this
meet? If she was involved with the
rating of the skills,
whatever she said is likely
to be what the FIG would ultimately determine
anyway. This makes the argument that the judges
exceeded their authority
a little less persuasive
(as a practical matter; not necessarily in
principle).
:)
Adriana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 18:31:39
EST-11
From: ***@DISINFORMATION.BF.RMIT.EDU.AU
Subject:
Koleshnikova
Re one arm moves ---
I was
flicking through a 1986 issue of International Gymnast, the one
with the Goodwill Games in it (October or November), and
there was a
picture of Vera Koleshnikova,
the AA champion of the 86 Goodwill
Games, catching the
bar with one hand. It looked
like she just
completed a one arm Tkatchev.
Anyone know if she actually competed
this move? Vera competed in
the
Australia Games in early 1985 but I don't think I have her AB routine
on tape.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 18:11:56
+0100
From: ***@VNET.ATEA.BE
Subject:
DTB-Pokal RSG individuals (Timoshenko interview)
Hello
GYMNers,
I am staying in Vienna this week (work,
no pleasure). One of the
TV-channels at the hotel is the German sports
channel DSF (Deutsches
Sport Fernsehn),
so I was able to watch the two-hour coverage they
gave
about the DTB-Pokal RSG in Karlsruhe (Germany).
A
report and the results were already posted to the list. Therefor I
won't repeat them here. I'm sure some of you are still
interested in
what Timoshenko had to say in her
interview, so I took some notes.
The interview went something like this (originaly in German):
(Q) What do you think about
your successors ?
(A) I do quite like them.
(Q)
Today we saw some new styles in the routines. These new styles,
are
they the future of RSG ?
(A) Yes. Every gymnast has her own style. I find
it interesting to see
those different styles.
(Q) You are now
coaching the German RSG gymnasts. Will they be able to
reach
a high level ?
(A) They sure will, but it will probably still take some
time before
they are able to beat, say, the Bulgarians or the
Russians.
(Q) And you are putting your time into it.
(A) That's right.
On
Sun, 30 Apr 1995 (21:16:39 BST) Sherwin Ho <s.s.ho@IC.AC.UK> wrote:
> ...
Alexandra
>
Timoshenko was there again for an interview, she speaks very good
>
German (or at least it sounded like very good German!)
BTW, it
didn't only sound like good German, it was good German.
CU on
GYMN,
Erik.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 07:24:39
-0400
From: ***@AMANDA.DORSAI.ORG
Subject:
Re: One arm
Sorry, two one arm giants (backward, in overgrip) are two A parts.
Ken
>Hi
everyone
> One arm giants are now worth "A" value but 2 in a
row are a
"B"
> A gienger is a "C"
and a 1 arm gienger is a
"C"
> If you do a 1 arm
giant - 1 arm gienger that is a "D" . The value
>raise only comes because there is a full 1 arm giant before
the one arm
>release. It must be imediate
1 arm 1arm release without any tap of the one
>hand
on the bar. I only know this
because I performed the skill.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 05:42:21 -0600
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject:
Re: Chinese Gymnast at Visa Cup: A Discussion.
Adriana asked:
| the FIG in some sort of extraordinary session. One wrinkle: was Jackie
| Fie at this meet? If she was involved with the rating of
the skills,
I am about 90% sure that she was at the meet, officially
as a
representative of the FIG. (I'm not completely sure since I've
been
to a number of meets lately, so I might have
that memory mixed up from
another meet.) The Technical Director of the meet was
Audrey Schweyer
(USA). I don't know which of the following
judges might have been on
the technical committee,
but other judges at the meet were: Esbela
Miyake,
Marilyn Cross, Wen Guoyn, Nellie Kim, Helena Lario, Chery
Hamilton, Weij Jing, Antonina Koshel.
Rachele
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 09:00:27
-0400
From: ***@FREENET.SCRI.FSU.EDU
Subject:
introduction
Hi, I just joined the list. I'm Angela, and I'm twenty years
old. I'll be
starting college in the fall. I've
been interested in
gymnastics since the 88 olympics. My
favorite gymnasts are KIM ZMESKAL,
Dominique
Dawes, Jenny Thompson, Dominique Moceanu, Lylia Podkopayeva,
Lavinia Milosovich, Dina Kotcheckova, Ana Maria Bican,
Tatiana Gutsu, and
I guess that's about it. I'm mostly interested in elite women's
gymnastics.
A member of the race that knows Joseph
Angela
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 09:16:11
-0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject:
Re: Koleshnikova
> Re one arm moves
---
> I was flicking through a 1986 issue of International Gymnast, the
one
> with the Goodwill Games in it (October or
November), and there was a
> picture of Vera Koleshnikova, the AA champion of the 86 Goodwill
>
Games, catching the bar with one hand.
It looked like she just
> completed a
one arm Tkatchev.
>
> Anyone know if
she actually competed this move?
Vera competed in the
> Australia Games in early 1985 but I don't
think I have her AB routine
> on tape.
Not
to my knowledge, and certainly not at Goodwills, or
at least I think
they'd have pointed it out in the
coverage. Are you sure that
picture
doesn't show her just regrasping
in a cross grip? (my IG's are at home)
1-arm regrasps by mistake have been known to occur. One I remember
hearing
about was Tony Pineda (MEX/UCLA) catching his "Pineda" (Gaylord
II with 1/2 twist) with one arm at the Emerald Cup in Oregon. The only
intentional
one-arm regrasp I've seen is Csaba
"One-Arm Czar" Fajkusz's
(1-arm Gienger with 1-arm regrasp),
although I would guess it's been
tried by
others.
A teammate of mine once let go of the bar with one arm while
she was
swinging for a straddle back -- to pull down
a wedgie.
:)
Adriana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 09:04:42
-0500
From: ***@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU
Subject:
One arm moves and their risk factor
Date sent: 4-MAY-1995 08:58:21
Okie, after
watching this topic spam my mailbox for the past
five
days, I felt compelled to post something, too. (this
topic
is taking on the proportions of the
"What's in the briefcase
Pulp Fiction argument on bbs's):
This
is a simple statement, and I sincerely hope I do not get anyone
mad or angry at me. Gymnastics is an inherently dangerous
sport.
After watching people question the "danger value" of this
move for
the past week, I think people have
forgotten that so-called 'Simple'
moves can cause injuires to.
Examples? Kerri Strug
lost her grip during a COMPULSORY bar routine last
August and badly
sprained her back. Julissa Ann Gomex
broke her neck
and died on what now is considered
a commonplace move in women's gym-
nastics,
a Yourchenko vault. And...a Puerto Rican gymnast broke her neck
at
the 1989 Worlds doing a hanspring front vault, after
she simply missed
her hands on the horse.
I'm
sorry, but accidents will happen in this sport, no matter how safe
we are. If this move is correctly spotted, I do not see why
it would
be any more or less dangerous than the
men doing the same move.
Jennifer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 09:16:55
CDT
From: ***@UNANOV.UNA.EDU
Subject:
Introduction
Hi -
My name is Charlotte and I'm the mother of
a gymnast. My
daughter is 11 yrs.old and
competes as a level 5 gymnast in the
state of
Alabama. We belong to a gym called
Shoals School of
Gymnastics in Florence, AL. Our group has traveled to several
competitions out of state in the last two years and plan
to
continue to do so.
Our family enjoys
gymnastics very much (you have to enjoy it if
you
have a competitor in the family - it takes up all your time).
Looking forward to the discussions presented on this list.
Charlotte
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 10:44:18
-0400
From: ***@PHARM.MED.UPENN.EDU
Subject:
Re: Chinese Gymnast at Visa Cup: A Discussion.
>Adriana asked:
>|
the FIG in some sort of extraordinary session. One wrinkle: was Jackie
>| Fie at this
meet? If she was involved with the
rating of the skills,
>
>I am about 90% sure that she was at the
meet, officially as a
>representative of the FIG. (I'm not completely sure since I've
been
>to a number of meets lately, so I might
have that memory mixed up from
>another
meet.) The Technical Director of
the meet was Audrey Schweyer
>(USA). I don't know which of the following
judges might have been on
>the technical
committee, but other judges at the meet were: Esbela
>Miyake,
Marilyn Cross, Wen Guoyn, Nellie Kim, Helena Lario, Chery
>Hamilton, Weij Jing, Antonina Koshel.
>
>Rachele
Jackie
Fie was at the meet - that is a 100% for sure.
Mayland
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:31:20 -0400
From: ***@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Subject:
Kolesnikova
I think Adriana is
right about Vera's Tkachev. She caught the bar with
her
hands crossed, and if someone took a picture
at the right moment, it could look
like she was
catching it 1-handed. But I'm nearly 100% sure she never did a
1-arm Tkachev.
Beth
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 09:36:31
-0700
From: ***@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU
Subject:
Re: stanford girls coach
fired
Texx posted:
>
> I dont know if anyone has posted this yet, but Stanford Univ this week fired
> their
girls gymn coach, their mens
wrestling coach and i forgot who the 3rd
one
> was they canned.
>
> -texx
>
I just called the Stanford
Sports Information Department, and they
confirmed
that the women's (they are women, texx) gymnastics
coach
has been "relieved of his duties"
and that the wrestling coach had
originally been
slated for dismissal but was "granted a reprieve."
This was
after there had been rumors floating around earlier this week
that four coaches were going to be fired. I don't know who the other
two coaches might be (not that it would matter to anyone
else on this
list), but I can confirm that Breck Greenwood is no longer the Stanford
head coach.
-Patrick
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 15:49:45
-0500
From: ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject:
Re: One arm moves and their risk factor
Jennifer,
>This is
a simple statement, and I sincerely hope I do not get anyone
>mad or angry at me.
I doubt that anyone here will
get mad at you for stating the obvious.
Gymnastics _is_
dangerous. The same is true
for most sports.
I agree with all those who have said that the Chinese
gymnasts got robbed.
It should not be the policy of judges at comparatively
minor meets to try
to encourage or discourage
particular tricks. But...
>I'm
sorry, but accidents will happen in this sport, no matter how safe
>we are. If this move is correctly spotted, I do not see why
it would
>be any more or less dangerous than
the men doing the same move.
The reason it is more dangerous is that
uneven bars are thicker than the
high bar, and
therefore more difficult to grip.
The chances for peeling
off are much
higher.
On the other hand, if I have to fall in such a way that I
crash into the
rail, I'd much rather be on UB than
HB.
As for me, I do support the FIG devaluing moves that are too dangerous,
but
I don't think one-armed UB work falls into that category.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 17:41:00
CDT
From: ***@AIS.NET
Subject:
Introduction
Hello, my name is Joe, and I have just started
subscribing to this
digest. I am a high-school gymnast that loves
the sport!!! I would like to
introduce myself and thank everyone who made this
digest!! Before I go, I
would like to add that my favorite vault is a Tsukahara. Oh
yeah, my coach
is Coach Esposito and he is
awesome!!! He coached Chris Waller
in
high-school!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 18:43:16
-0400
From: ***@ORL.MMC.COM
Subject:
Negative Coaching
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Last
night after I picked my daughter (Level 6 - Rec Opt, age 12) up from the
gym, she said that she was upset with one of her coaches. I
wasn't too concerned
at first, since she has come
home annoyed at some of her other coaches before
for
"normal" reasons ("She told me I need to do FIVE more
..."), but after she
explained the reason I
became a little concerned.
It seems that she had been doing giants on
the pit bar, and her coach wanted
her to do them
on the regular bars. Mandy told him that she didn't feel
ready,
but he told her that if she did, she would be ahead of the rest of her
group. When she finally (hesitantly) went to the bar, he
told her that she had
five seconds to get started,
and looked at his watch. When she didn't start
in
time he told her to get off of the bars.
Now comes the part that
really bothers me. After she got off of the bars, he
got
angry with her for "not trying" and told her "If you're not
going to try,
quit wasting my time and the gym's
time and just go home and play with your
dolls."
This
same coach had done something very similar at an easter meet that we
had
attended. After the meet (before awards) he called the whole team together
and proceeded to chew them out for lack of effort, and used
the same
"If you're not going to put out the effort, quit wasting my
time and the
gym's time". This was an
invitational (read FUN) meet, and our team (Rec Opt
ages 8 and up)
ended up winning the first place team trophy by around 8 points!
Before
I sit down and talk with this coach, I wanted to bounce this off this
list to see if I might be over-reacting, or if anyone else
has come across
this. (after
the recently posted article about the paralized
gymnast, I am
probably a little over-sensitive
about pushing a gymnast in tricks she's not
comfortable
with.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 16:59:55
-0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject:
Re: stanford girls coach
fired
>
> Texx posted:
>
>
> > I dont know if anyone has posted
this yet, but Stanford Univ this week fired
>
> their girls gymn coach,
their mens wrestling coach and i
forgot who the 3rd
> one
> > was they
canned.
> >
> > -texx
>
>
>
> I just called the Stanford Sports Information
Department, and they
> confirmed that the
women's (they are women, texx) gymnastics coach
My
nomenclature is in accordance with my objections to the way the sport
is handled.
Refer to previous fights aboutpermissible
minimun ages for major competitions.
Nice to
see you delurking Pat !
Havent seen you since that one meet !
-texx
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 20:15:19
-0500
From: ***@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU
Subject:
I am not stupid :)
Date sent:
4-MAY-1995 20:10:42
Okie, in the past 24 hours I have gotten at
least 10 e-mails from
people telling me that the
Puerto Rican gymnast I pointed out in my
argument
was, in fact, our resident expert, Adriana Duffy.
I am not stupid. :)
I knew it was Adriana to begin with. I know more
facts
about gymnastics than I could possibly have a use for. Among them,
the fact that Adriana was 16th at the Pan American games in
1987, and was a
member of the Stanford women's
gymnastics team before her accident. I left
out
her name because I wasn't sure if everyone knew, and if she did or
did not want everyone to know.
I have since been
emailed by her (thanks, Adriana, you really are a
sweetheart)
and been assured she did not mind the example, so...
I just wanted to
point out I am not a dummy :) Beginning to feel like
one,
though.
Jennifer
------------------------------
End
of GYMN-L Digest - 3 May 1995 to 4 May 1995
***********************************************