gymn Digest                 Fri,  2 Sep 94       Volume 3 : Issue  12

Today's Topics:
                                '91 FX
                  '91 FX once and for all! (2 msgs)
                           Dynamo (2 msgs)
                          Mosaic-old inquiry
           NCAA Gymnastics may have Olympic Repercussions..
               NCAA Program Cuts (this time it's women)
                     Responses to recent traffic
                         This forum (3 msgs)

This is a digest of the mailing list. 


Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 18:53:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***
Subject: '91 FX

     I'm tuning into this discussion a little late - I chose to go to bed early
instead of writing my opinion. But then today, I logged on and found out that a
lot of people share my opinion! I have always believed Mitova deserved the
floor gold in '91. I think she may have had some low landings on some of her
tumbling runs, but something tells me that if she had been wearing a US, USSR
or Romanian leo, no deductions would have been taken. In any case, her tumbling
was awesome, and she was the only gymnast to combine great tumbling with truly
original and artistic dance, not just silly prancing around. She was in a class
by herself, and as someone said, her 6th place finish was a "slap in the face."
I truly hope she can recover successfully from her injury and win a floor gold.
But I'm afraid she'll end up in the same situation as Chusovitina and Yang Bo -
best in the world on vault and beam, respectively, but never a gold medal to
show for it...



Date: Fri, 02 Sep 1994 14:47:22 -0700 (MST)
From: ***
Subject: '91 FX once and for all!

Re: this whole 91 FX thing, Mara writes:
>I wasn't wildly impressed with Bogey's 91 FX routine...She seemed to
>just be posing between tumbling runs...I liked her 89 & 92 routines better.

Her routine, IMHO, was still gorgeous even if it perhaps wasn't as
classic as her '89 winning routine.  Maybe it would have been had
Boginskaya not been robbed of her second AA title...But regarding
"posing", I don't feel this was the case at all.  Boginskaya simply has
her own style of artistic impression...

>From Brian we hear:
>"I thought Zmeskal had great dance, but mediocre tumbling."

      Yes, her tumbling was quite mediocre, but GREAT DANCE????!  Let's
just say her tumbling was the strong point, shall we? (Insert retching
sounds here)

>"I thought Chussy deserved the title mainly for her tumbling"

Chussy's tumbling should have given her a medal considering the company
she was in re: total artistry + tumbling, but, please, MITOVA had equally
spectacular tumbling but also showed the *complete* floor routine with
dance (spell that D-A-N-C-E) that all three medalists lacked...


Date: Fri, 02 Sep 94 18:13:50 EDT
From: ***
Subject: '91 FX once and for all!

>I wasn't wildly impressed with Bogey's 91 FX routine...She seemed to  just
be posing between tumbling run<

To quote, I belive, Toursicheva's comments (though she was discussing Oksana
O. at the time) "She already re-invented the sport once ... how many times
does she have to do it?"  Like Svetlana or not she had dance ... real dance.
Maybe not what *you* like (and everyone is certainly entitled to their own
opinions and preferances) but the person that touted Zmeskal's dance over her
tumbling (I liked neither) needs a few trips to the ballet (not that that's
the only type of dance mind you). I mean most square dancers have more
natural grace, elgance, and a better musical sense then did Kimbo. Just
because you can clap along to the music does not make  it pleasing or good in
any way shape or form. Kim's floor was geared to be cute (I didn't find it so
but that's just me). Nothing more. If you like cute great but it's not a
"dance" program.

As for Mitova ... her tumbling was amazing, her choreography beyond original,
and the flag on her leo all wrong for a medal (7th place in '91 and in '92
Euros she finished 4th behind Melaine Legros - empthsis in the "gross" - it
couldn't possible have anything to do with the meet being in France could it?
I thought not). In the '92 Europeans she tumbled whip to double layout punch
front, double twist punch front into double tuck punch front ending with a
whip double tuck punch front with all the grace and elgance in her dance that
she was known for (well to those in the know anyway). She broke her neck
trying double double's though I doubt that would have done any good. The
judges had already decided to ignore her.

Back to the original Bontas vs Chussy discussion. Chussy had no dance but she
pointed her toes and flipped around with perfect form while Christina had
negative dance and form breaks on every single element (right down to those
hideous flip flops).



Date: Fri, 2 Sep 94 13:02:16 PDT
From: ***
Subject: Dynamo

> >Nunno v. Shannon's mother, even Zmeskal's attempt to return...
> >
> Can someone tell me what Nunno v. Shannon's mother exactly refer to?

and, what's going on with Zmeskal's attempt to return?  (haven't heard
anything lately on this....)


Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 15:51:38 -0500
From: ***
Subject: Dynamo

>Beth's post among others on the same topic of "possessed" coaching leaves me
>with a sickening feeling.  I don't want to wonder afterwards when I see
>gymnasts going through routines whether they are being mistreated
>psychologically.  *It is just not worth it*.  Strug's going from coach to
>Nunno v. Shannon's mother, even Zmeskal's attempt to return...
Can someone tell me what Nunno v. Shannon's mother exactly refer to?




Date: Fri, 02 Sep 94 13:34:54 EDT
From: ***
Subject: IMHO...etc.

I've heard IMHO meand in my honest opinion, and in my humble opinion. Which
one is correct?


Jessica :)


Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 20:06:21 -0400
From: ***
Subject: Mosaic-old inquiry

I hate to do this but I need some info....on July 21 someone posted the
following about using Mosaic with a Unix dialup access:

One solution to this, if you have dialup unix access, is to use Lynx,which
is a vt100 text equivilant of Mosaic or Cello.  It dosn't do images
(obviously), but handles all the hypertext features fine.  You can also
have it download the images so you can look at them.  I use lynx whenever
I'm on a dumb term, and Mosaic every time I'm in Windows or XWindows, and
I get along fine.  Lynx runs pretty quickly - a lot of the slowness of
Mosaic is that it automatically grabs all the images, and while they are
pretty, you can get by by just getting images on demand (there is a toggle
in Mosaic to do this also).

I don't have the persons name or e-mail adrres who wrote that reply
to a mosaic question. Could that person please contact me privatly
on e-mail....or if anyone else has any info to pass on about the
specifics of this info I'd appreciate it!



Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 17:50:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***
Subject: NCAA Gymnastics may have Olympic Repercussions..

Was reading my AP wire, picked up an article about Men's Gymastics.  A few
small quotes shold fit in "reasonable" use, so here goes..

"It would have a negative impact [in reference to NCAA championship
removal] on the future of men's gymnastics when no college programs exist
for them to advance their skills for International competition," said
Richard Aronson, executive director of the National Association of College
Gymastics Coaches (copyright, Associated Press 1994).

..  References to the "40" rule for NCAA sports, and thje fact that men's
is at 31...  Scott Keswick is quoted as saying "For years and years, [the
championship's] been the base of our national team, and [college] is the
hope and inspiration of kids... If there's no scholarships, you're taking
away a dream". 

The genreal gyst of the article is that it's all going downhill, the basic
problem being Money.  The article stats that USA Gymnastics is funding a
lobby to keep it allive for 2 more years in NCAA to try and get it back
above 40 sites, and to increase support for the sport.  The title of the
article was something to the effect that the lack of support at upper
levels for Men's gymnastics in the US would lead to termendous loss of
high level gymnasts, and there would not be enough to fuel an Olympic
team, etc.  I think they may be right, unfortunately.  I think, however,
that the trend can be reveresed.  And I think some of the reversal needs
to come with the assistance of the press, of which David is in a great
position to help the cause.  I'd like to see, if possible, a speical "info
snippet" in one of the next meets about the loss of support of the sport
for men, and what kinds of things people can do to help.  Make it a cause
or such..

In other news, the manager of some baseball team was suspended and fined
for "mooning" the umpire of the game (AP article).  Mike Goff pulled the
top of his pantsx down on home plate while protesting a fair-ball call on
a hit.. ;).  It was shown on ESPN nationally ;).  I have yet to see that
happen in Gymnastics ;).



Date: Fri, 02 Sep 94 15:04:46 EDT
From: ***
Subject: NCAA Program Cuts (this time it's women)

This is from a story on Reuter's (all direct quotes from the article noted)
and seemed applicable to the NCAA program cutting discussion.

9 women have sued the University of Bridgeport (Conn.) for sex discrimination
after the gymnastics program was canceled. They're seeking to either
reinstate their program or cancel all other school sports.

 The lawsuit contends that "the decision to end the programme violated the
plaintiffs' rights to equal athletic participation."
Men's volleyball was dropped along with women's gym for finacial reasons. The
nine women are on scholarship (for gymnastics) and choose Bridgeport so that
they could compete. Now it's too late for them to go to another school and
they claim that they were mislead.  The scholarships will be honored but the
girl's say that's not the point.

 "'Gymnastics is my life, but now I can't compete' Kelli Mugglin, 18, told
the Hartford Courant newspaper."

It's the same old story with men getting the majority of funding (athletic)
even though half the students are women (in this case 54%).

"Trial Lawyers for Public Justice, a national law firm with a reputation for
helping reinstate women's collegiate teams, is guiding the lawsuit, the
Courant said."

[end of article ... the following comments are mine]

This contrasts with all the recent hype over the cutting of men's programs
nationwide. In fact what the girls are claiming is exactly what the disputed
prop. that sounded the death knell for many men's programs hoped to rectify;
the $ equality between men and women. Women's "small" sports have been cut
for "financial reasons" for years and little fuss has been made. The men's
depletion (far more widespread and far faster) has been a major issue (it's
all the reporters wanted to talk to the guys about at Nationals). I'm not
really sure if that's sexist or not (I don't really buy into all that kind of
excuses junk) but it seems true.

On a totally different note, I've noticed for years that while gymnastics is
a sport of little girls most of it's successful and well respected (not to
mention well hyped) coaches are old men. When you do see a women's coach she
tends to be physically fit  - unlike most of the male coaches -  and
attractive. Kind of glamourous ... unlike the frumpy sweats the guys get away
with. It all could be a coincidence I guess. I've talked to Rita Brown about
this and see doesn't really think it's an issue even though she was the "gym
person" so to speak and Kevin (when they were together that is) got all the
glory as a coach.  She also owns the largest gymnastics business in the
nation and no-one (or few people) at home know what she looks like. You can
hardly say the same for Bela or Steve. Oh well maybe I'm just rambling as



Date: Fri, 02 Sep 1994 14:01:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Responses to recent traffic

Just a few quick comments:
      Gimnasta: wasn't Bogie's air guitar '89 and not '88? The '88 routine
(by the way, she performed it the best at '89 Europeans where her FINAL pass
was a tucked full-in) was a masterpiece, and I think it was hard without her
longtime coach to create one just as masterful.
      As far as televised sports, I wouldn't harsh on tennis too much. It
translates well to television, just like women's gymnastics does. Men's pommel
horse and p-bars usually does not for those of us outside of our circle of
fanatics. Believe me, I LOVE watching those events, but that's in large part
due to the fact that I know most of the stuff they're doing. Crane shots of
pommel horse just emphasize the desparation of television producers to force it
to be more MTV-ish (Just look at the ABC coverage of the Hilton Tri-Meet a
couple of weeks ago - but we've already determined that ABC's gymn coverage is
really poor at the moment.)
      I refuse to defend televised golf except for the fact that a missed put
is easier to see than poor Yurchenko form (except in the case of Silivas....),
more people who are camped out in front of their TV sets can play golf than
have ever thought about doing gymnastics, and the Ryder Cup coverage this year
was one of the most dramatic team events I have ever seen outside of gymnastics
and non-pro sports.
      Chussy has her weak points, Henni had her weak points (Hello, what
leap?) but both hav contributed their own style to their gymnastics. Kerri, on
the other hand, doesn't really have any weak events. I would blame her
underachievements (if one can really call being the youngest ever senior U.S.
champion and World and Olympic medalist underachieving....) on some of the
coaching from Nunno and Karolyi. I believe that she could've medaled in the AA
in the Olympics if Bela had put her differently in the order, and not had
stupid choreography on floor. And Nunno brought out some different aspects in
her gymnastics but didn't back it up with confidence in herself, and yes, a
certain comfort level that she needed.
      I cannot wait to see her back in action with the more personalized
coaching that she was used to and the influence of those great coaches.Sounds
like Larissa can improve in that situation as well. What happened to Leonard
Issacs, anyway?
      One more question - for traffic purposes, I would've thought that one
long post one or two times a week would be more coherent, easier, and less
"noisy" than two or three a day, every time I have a response to something. Can
one of the board people tell us which is preferred? Others seem to get
overwhelmed with 20 10-line posts every day. Thanks.
Apologies for the longer-than-I-had-planned post


Date: Fri, 2 Sep 94 10:16:42 PDT
From: ***
Subject: Tattoo?

Texx writes:
> Hair must be worn just so, wrong tshirt worn upon arrival at the meet,
> never mind that you changed befoer the meet started, if they remember
> seeing you in the parking lot in the shirt they dont like, you are

      I believe you are exaggerating a bit here Texx.  There were (are?)
some requlations with regard to unkempt facial hair, but it was at the
level of the judge who could take of one or two tenths for unkempt
appearance (or so my coach informed us).  I have no idea where you got the
idea that the clothes you came to the meet in were scrutinized, it never
mattered in any of the meets I went to (at the time heavy metal t-shirts
were worn by most of my peers at the time).  Our coach wouldn't have let us
wear anything excessive, but that was purely for the image of our gym, not
set by anyone running a competition (other gyms were much less concerned
about these things).

      Dave Litwin


Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 13:22:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***
Subject: This forum

Hi, again everyone!

I recently spoke with some individuals at the University of Chicago
conerning the possiblity of developing an internet gymnastics forum.
Unlike Gymn as it is now, my friends were also interested in a forum where
coaches could discuss techniques (new and old) and the current _technical_
aspects of the sport.  They were hoping to establish a network through
which coaches, gymnasts, judges, and spectators could develop closer ties and
build support groups.

Does anyone here have any comments?  I would certainly appreciate any anyone
could give. 




Date: Fri, 02 Sep 94 14:55:01 -0400
From: ***
Subject: This forum

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]

   Julius wrote:
   I recently spoke with some individuals at the University of Chicago
   conerning the possiblity of developing an internet gymnastics forum.
   Unlike Gymn as it is now, my friends were also interested in a forum
   where coaches could discuss techniques (new and old) and the current
   _technical_ aspects of the sport.  They were hoping to establish a
   network through which coaches, gymnasts, judges, and spectators could
   develop closer ties and build support groups.
   Does anyone here have any comments?  I would certainly appreciate any
   anyone could give. 

When I first read this I thought "Hey, what a great idea".  But the
 more I thought about it, the more I think that Gymn is the perfect forum
for this already.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing says that
we can't discuss technical topics here on Gymn.  From my point of view,
since I receive this forum through my email, it wouldn't matter to me if
messages came to me from one list or two, I would still read the same

The only drawback that I could see to this would be that some people on
Gymn might not be interested in technical talk about coaching or judging,
and might find the additional traffic unbearable.  So, I would add to
Julius' question my own request for input on the pros and cons of technical
and hopefully marketing discussions here in this forum.  Does it belong
here or somewhere else?



Date: Fri, 2 Sep 94 13:32:53 PDT
From: ***
Subject: This forum

> The only drawback that I could see to this would be that some people on
> Gymn might not be interested in technical talk about coaching or judging,
> and might find the additional traffic unbearable.

      I would love to have more technical talk on gymn (there is precious
little right now), and as for traffic it seems most of it comes from
personal disagreements that really don't need to be CC'd to gymn, and can
be resolved (or not) between the two interested parties.  For instance "I
think Bela sucks", "I think he's OK" shouldn't have to generate more than
two pieces of mail before continuing without being posted for everyone in
gymn to read.

      Merely my oppinion (with no flames intended),



End of gymn Digest