gymn Digest                 Thu,  3 Feb 94       Volume 2 : Issue  69

Today's Topics:
                   "masculinity" & men's gymnastics
                            Calendar Notes
                         February's Calendar
                    Men's gymnastics & popularity
      Men's gymnastics loss of popularity, & our troubled times
                             Reese's Cup

This is a digest of the mailing list. 


Date: Thu, 03 Feb 94 13:48:14 EST
From: ***
Subject: "masculinity" & men's gymnastics

The vast majority of people I've met express nothing but awe at the
abilities (and bodies) of male gymnasts (usually they mention rings).
I have heard of people who think differently, but to tell the truth, I
don't know that I've met any. Still, I don't think that if someone
wanted to join or put a kid in a "masculine" sport, gymnastics would
pop to mind.

Andy writes: How can you tell if a gymnast (or any athlete for that
matter) is gay based on their performance? Just can't imagine someone
saying, "Man, did you see that guy do that inverted iron-cross? What a

I think Andy misunderstood me. I didn't say (or intend to say, anyway)
that you can tell whether a guy is gay by watching his gymnastics
performances, but there are people who think you can, and my point was
that among these people are many male gymnasts. Consequently, they try
hard not to appear effeminate because they might be thought gay. It
shows on floor mostly, but also elsewhere. Guys do funny-looking
arabesques because it's the "masculine" way of doing them. They salute
a certain "masculine" way. Everything is done in straight lines and
sharp angles, no curves or softer movements. I think this masculine
stereotype and fear of appearing less than masculine is the reason why
style is so lacking in men's FX (and elsewhere). It's all so
mechanical and the routines all look alike. I'd love to see some
Baryshnikovs out there who can dance *and* do great tumbling (I
suppose these last two sentences might apply equally to women). I'd
love to see a guy do even just a split leap. I'd love more to see some
of the incredible leaps male dancers can do.


Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 13:50:39 -0600
From: <***>
Subject: Calendar Notes

_IG_ always knows when I'm going to post the calendars, I guess,
because, I *always* get the next issue just before I post the
calendar. (and then I have to stop, recheck everything, and be a day

There is apparently a mixup on the date of the broadcast of the
American Cup. USAG says it's on March 5th, but IG says it's on March
12th, with the World Cup being broadcast on the 5th. (At least they
don't say it will be broadcast *before* the meet ;)

And there was a problem in the day of the week calendar before each
month. That has now been corrected (hopefully). The actual meet dates
were OK, but the calendar might say the the 3rd was on a Saturday,
when it is really on Monday, etc etc...



Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 08:53:49 EST
From: ***
Subject: Comments

Something that makes our Parkette Invitational different from most
meets is that it's now both a boys and a girls meet. Although all the
different sessions (different levels etc.) are separate, the final are
combined. It gives everybody the opportunity to see both the girls and
boys compete. Perhaps this is something that the universities could do
on occassion (for those with both mens and womens teams anyway).



Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 13:40:55 -0600
From: <***>
Subject: February's Calendar

   #                                                                 #
   #  ________ G y m n ________                 \       |      ___   #
   #                               o     __o     |o     |o    (o     #
   #     An electronic forum       !__   \!      !      !      \.    #
   #       for gymnastics.       ====== ====== ====== ====== ======  #
   #                                                                 #

The Gymn Calendar

Anyone that has any events to add to this calendar, please mail them
to me.  All events on this calendar are
subject to change.  -- Efton

   February 1994
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
       1  2  3  4  5
 6  7  8  9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28

4-5             U.S. Winter Cup Challenge (M)/ Colorado Springs, CO
4-6             Fiesta Bowl/ Phoenix, AZ
5-12            Junior National Team Training Camp (M)/ Colordao Springs, CO
10-12           Parkette Invitational/ Allentown, PA
11-12           Rhythmic Challenge/ Colorado Springs, CO
11-13           Carolina's International/ Charlotte, NC
18-20           Buckeye Classic/ Columbus, OH
25-27           Peter Vidmar International Invitational/ Los Angeles, CA
26-27           Regional Elite Meets (W)/ Various Sites

   March 1994
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
       1  2  3  4  5
 6  7  8  9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31

4-5             McDonald's American Cup/ Orlando, FL
5               World Gymnastics Cup/ TELEVISED ON ABC
5               McDonald's American Cup/ TELEVISED LIVE ON NBC
8               International Mixed Pairs/ West Palm Beach, FL
12              International Mixed Pairs/ TELEVISED ON NBC
18-19           NCGA (III) Championships/ Collegeville, PA
25-27           American Classic Nationals (W)/ Orlando, FL

     April 1994
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
                1  2
 3  4  5  6  7  8  9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30

9               NCAA Regionals (W)/
                        Northeast   Rhode Island Univ     Kingston, RI
                        Southeast   West Virginia Univ    Morgantown, WV
                        Central     Univ of Alabama       Tuscaloosa, AL
                        Midwest     Arizona State Univ    Tempe, AZ
                        West        Boise State Univ      Boise, ID
9               NCAA Regionals (M)/
                        Eastern     Army                  West Point, NY
                        Western     ?                     ?
9-18            International Pacific Games (M/W/R)/ Cali, Columbia
14-17           USA Gymnastics Collegiate Championships/ Austin, TX
15              USA Gymnastics NIT (W)/ Cape Girardeau, MO
15-17           Region VII Championships (M)/ Allentown, PA
16-17           J.O. Regional Meets (W)/ Various Sites
16-24           World Championships (AA & App)/ Brisbane, Australia
21-23           NCAA National Championships (W)/ Salt Lake City, UT
22-23           NCAA National Championships (M)/ Lincoln, NE
23              World Championships (AA & App)/ TELEVISED ON ABC
24              World Championships (AA & App)/ TELEVISED ON ABC
29-5/1          J.O. Championships (R)/ TBA
30              World Championships (AA & App)/ TELEVISED ON ABC
TBA             J.O. Regional Meets (M)/ TBA

      May 1994
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
 1  2  3  4  5  6  7
 8  9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31

4-14            FIG Congress/ Geneva, Switzerland
5-7             Coca-Cola Rhythmic National Championships/ TBA
5-8             Level 10 Junior Nationals (W)/ Allentown, PA
6-8             J.O. Nationals (M)/ Augusta, GA
7               USA vs. Romania (W)/ Worcester, MA
8               USA vs. Japan (M)/ Worcester, MA
12-15           Level 10 Senior Nationals (W)/ Seattle, WA
12-15           European Championships (W)/ Stockholm, Sweden
20-22           Hilton Challenge Triangular Meet/ Phoenix, AZ
26-29           European Championships (RSG)/ Thesalonika, Greece

      June 1994
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
          1  2  3  4
 5  6  7  8  9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30

2-5             European Championships (M)/ Prague, Czech Republic
5-11            USAIGC Nationals/ Greensboro, NC
8-12            International Elite Cup/ Monterrey N.L., Mexico
9-12            Four Continents Championships (R)/ Seoul, Korea
10-11           Budget Rent a Car Dual: USA vs. Romania/ Worcester, MA
18              Budget Rent a Car Dual: USA vs. Romania/ TELEVISED ON NBC
TBA             Coca-Cola Rhythmic National Champs/ TBA

      July 1994
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
                1  2
 3  4  5  6  7  8  9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30

1-10            U.S. Olympic Festival/ St. Louis, MO
16              Hilton Challenge Triangular Meet/ TELEVISED ON ABC
23-8/7          Goodwill Games/ St. Petersburg, Russia
TBA             Rhythmic International Festival/ TBA
TBA             National Gymnastics Festival (W)/ TBA

     August 1994
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
    1  2  3  4  5  6
 7  8  9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
6-9             U.S. Classic Nationals (W)/ Palm Springs, CA
12              Gymn's Second Anniversary
18-28           Commonwealth Games/ Victoria, B.C., Canada
20              Hilton Challenge Triangular Meet/ TELEVISED ON ABC
24-28           Coca-Cola USA National Championships/ Nashville, TN
24-28           USA Gymnastics National Congress/ Nashville, TN
27              Coca-Cola USA National Championships/ TELEVISED ON NBC
28              Coca-Cola USA National Championships/ TELEVISED ON NBC
29-9/3          XII Olympic Congress/ Paris, France

     October 1994
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
 2  3  4  5  6  7  8
 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30 31

2-16            Asian Games (M/W)/ Hiroshima, Japan
21-21           World Championship Team Trials/ TBA
27-28           Rhythmic World Championships/ Paris, France
TBA             Gymnaestrada/ TBA

   November 1994
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
       1  2  3  4  5
 6  7  8  9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30

9-12            Olympic Congress of the USA/ Nashville, TN
15-20           World Championships (Team)/ Dortmund, Germany
TBA             Chunichi Cup/ Nagoya City, Japan
TBA             Catania (W)/ Catania, Italy

December 1994
3               Team World Championships/ TELEVISED ON NBC
15-21           Pacific Alliance Championships/ Auckland, New Zealand
TBA             DTB Cup/ Stuttgart, Germany

March 1995
4-19            Pan American Games/ Mar Del Plata, Argentina
25              NCAA Regionals (M)/ TBA

April 1995
7-8             NCAA National Champs (M)/ TBA

July 1995
9-15            10th World Gymnaestrada/ Frankfurt, Germany
TBA             U.S. Olympic Festival (M/W/R)/ Denver, CO

August 1995
10-13           Coca-Cola National Championships/ TBA
12              Gymn's Third Anniversary
17-20           USA Gymnastics National Congress/ New Orleans, LA
24-9/8          World University Games (M/W/R)/ Fukuoka, Japan

October 1995
1-10            Artistic World Championships/ Sabae, Japan
4-7             Olympic Congress of the USA/ Atlanta, GA
4-8             Rhythmic World Champs/ Vienna, Austria

July 1996
19-8/4          Games of the XVIth Olympiad/ Atlanta, GA

August 1996
12              Gymn's Fourth Anniversary


Date: Thu, 03 Feb 94 08:48:31 -0500
From: ***
Subject: Men's gymnastics & popularity

Andy writes:

>>"Man, did you see that guy do that inverted iron-cross?  What a fag!"

Thanks for making me almost spit my coffee all over my workstation screen :) :)

As for this subject, obviously you can not tell that a gymnast is gay
based upon a specific routine. I have seen many floor-ex routines that
contained elements not typically found in mens floor routines, like
split and staddle leaps, front aerials, walkovers, etc., but you can't
say that these guys are gay because of it.



Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 11:41:27 PST
From: "***"
Subject: Men's gymnastics loss of popularity, & our troubled times

We are not doing well with mens gymn in the olympics because of the
"Soviet Athletic machine". Here in the US we are tying hard to keep
our athletes amateur. But look! We have pro basketball players on our
Oly team as well as pro skaters, pro hockey, pro tennis etc. Perhaps
guys gymn has dug itself into a hole so deep we cant get out of it.

The "wuss" rep it has, does not help. I'd love to stage a show where
we get a gymn team to make "girlscouts" out of a football team.

Fact is, guys gymnasts are in better shape than most athletes. A
"wuss" cant do an iron cross, let alone an olympic cross. But the guys
calling us these demeaning names conveniently forget this minor point.
We are "pansies" because we arent out there pounding someone elses
brains out.

Mens gymn is always the first to cut, last to get funded, etc. I'll
give credit to Mary Lou for saving the american Womens gymn sport.

In the case of the guys, maybe we are just plain screwed...

I do not support demanding time away from womens gymn to make space
for guys. Even the women dont get enough airtime. Cant we cut back on
the time alloted to washed up football players and their wheel barrow
sized beer guts ?

On skating...

#1 Yeah mens skating is a huge "closet" because mens skating is incredibly red
   necked.  I know many people whos lives were ruined because the presure of
   the spoort forced them to marry their partners when, the guys really were
   more interested in other guys.

#2 I havent seen Brian in a long time.  Last time I saw him face to face, Im
   afraid it wasnt pretty.  I threw him out of a rink during a public session
   for repeatedly breaking the rules.... 
   (How was I supost'a know he was gonna become a star?)

#3 On the whole Hardingate thing: Continue reading, it all ties together.

Now on this whole acceptance & hatred thing: We have to remember where
the USA came from. There was this bunch of radical right wing
religious types who the dutch kicked out and later the british kicked
them out too. We now teach in public schools that these "poor
pilgrims" were persecuted. Fact is they were kicked out for
persecuting others. (& we forget that as soon as they arrived, they
began persecuting the natives already living here in America)

So they came over here and became the founders of the religious right.
Here in the USA we have institutionalized bigotry. It took 150 years
to give woment he right to vote. Almost as long for people of color.
Now we are trying to pass laws to perserve our godgiven right to fire
people from their jobs, evict them from their housing, beat up & kill
them simply for being gay. (I've had all 3 happen to me)

We have raised our childeren that "Good little boys play football in
High School and beat up fags". Why is it OK to beat people up ?
Because the bible says so! (Yeah right!) Several passages in the bible
have been twisted to suit the purposes of the right wing. They can
stay in power as long as they fan the flames, making people afraid of
gays. Wanna see a sicko video ? See "The Gay Agenda" sometime. I was
amazed to learn of the practices that I supposedly carry out several
times a week. Where do they GET this stuff ?!? Some of them I NEVER
heard of before I saw that video, and supposedly I have 400 sex
partners a year ? I only WISH I was that cute! Anyway this nice little
fortified church (armed just like the Waco folks) in southern CA
distributes it.

We raise our children this way and then have the tumerity to wonder
why USA is so violent society. We blame guns, drugs, tv, etc. This is
pure BULL ! We need only look in the mirror to see the cause. Comic
strip "Pogo" about 20 years ago; "We have met the enemy, and he is us"
(Wise man Walt Kelley was...)

We are a society of true sickos. The cause is not guns, drugs, or even
Beavis & Butthead. It is WE who are teaching kids that it is OK to
hurt others. The horrible thing is, these kids we teach violence to,
eventually become adults and the cycle continues. We demand that
Beavis & Butthead be taken off the air, and the next night we cheer as
we send out 12 year old out on the football field to give someone
elses 12 year old a concussion. We teach that it is OK to beat up the
"nerd" down the street.

Back to the topic of gymn... (Wow I sure flamed here and I havent even
lit my ACME6969 flamethrower yet! ) {Nefarious grin} I SWEAR ! I had
NO intention of going on this long.

I dont know how we are going to save mens gymn. We have a rep we cant
shake that couples with the fact that we are quite obscure and the
schools are outta cash. Sponsors wont support something that is so
poorly supported already. Sponsors are afraid to sponsor something
that has a "fruity" reputation. The media has a finite amopunt of time
to direct at the entire gambut of sports in general and all the slices
of the pie are getting tinier by the minute.

The only solution I have is to get on the sports press and the sports
sponsors like diapers on a baby. Take a lesson from those terrible old
monster movies where the villagers arm themselves with torches and

One final thought:

 Hate is NOT a family value !!!


Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 11:49:27 EST
From: <***@BBN.COM>
Subject: Reese's Cup

Lori writes re: Reese's Cup coverage

>Also, instead of showing us Gutsu's make-over or Onodi's shopping spree
>(although that is all we saw of her), why couldn't they have showed a
>few more routines?  If only they would televise gymnastics as much as
>skating.  There are *4* different skating programs on TV on Saturday!

I agree they could have shown us more routines instead of "shop 'til
you drop." (I guess it tells us something about who they think is
watching, though--teenage girls. [Personally, I didn't like shopping
even when I was a teenage girl.])

However, the 4 skating programs on Saturday will certainly waste a lot
of time in similar nonsense. Also, the three networks have scheduled
these 4 programs so that if you don't own a VCR, you can only watch
two of them (two are on in the afternoon and two in the evening).
Thanks, guys! (Last Saturday, we only had one skating program and one
gymnastics program [Reese's] on simultaneously.)

Still waiting for the Dixie Cup, 



End of gymn Digest