gymn
Digest
Fri, 27 May 94 Volume 2 :
Issue 131
Today's Topics:
Ascis gym shoes
Bela's return? (2 msgs)
Bela/Zmeskal
Gym tidbits
Karolyi/Zmeskal (2 msgs)
lack of alternate for Worlds
Men's NCAA
New member.. (5 msgs)
Re[2]: Karolyi/Zmeskal
Re[2]: Ungureanu
Rhythmic Europeans - (Day One) (5 msgs)
status of NCAA Men's gymnastics
Tabloid Tattle or Could it Really Happen (6 msgs)
Team Worlds US team selection
Toby's
son
Trivia Questions Needed!!!
WWW (5 msgs)
Zmeskal/Karolyi
This
is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 25 May 94 15:38:50 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Ascis gym shoes
I am sending you this note on
behalf of my 13 year-old daughter who wants
to buy a pair of Ascis Tiger gym
shoes. What is your opinion on these
things?
There
is no local dealer for them here in Toronto which
forces us to
purchase them mail order from the
U.S.A. They run around $45 US and when
you add the
exchange and shipping costs will be about $75 Canadian dollars.
Before
I spend that kind of money, I would like some opinions. My daughter
is in pre-competitive gymnastics and has done quite well (2
first overalls)
in her last two competitions. She
has never used any kind of slipper or
shoe and I
don't understand why she thinks she needs one now.
Any advice and also
suggestions on reputable US dealers would also be
appreciated
Many
thanks from Kirsten (via her dad Peter).
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 94 14:04:29 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: Bela's return?
About former gymnasts returning to Bela, I can only comment-
It seems his return is
tied in to Kim's hopeful re-emergence.
If that is so,
the decision may purely be
as a favor to a once successful protege. In no
way
is it an indication that Karolyi would commit himself
to returning
full-time to coaching. My suggestion to former Bela students who moved after
his
retirement: Stay with STABILITY, leave uncertainty to the vagarities
of
competition.
Connie
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 94 21:10:49 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Bela's return?
>It seems his return is tied in
to Kim's hopeful re-emergence. If that
is
so,
the decision
may purely be as a favor to a once successful protege.
Something tells me it may be the other way around (i.e. Kim returning
as a
favor to Bela)...
Mara
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 May 94 19:52:14 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Bela/Zmeskal
My daughter
has idolized Kim for years, would like any further information
re: Kim/Bela comeback. Did anyone
see Bela Interview? My child is a 10-year
old level 8 at American Twiesters
in Boca Raton. If you think we would be
interested
in your news, please send! It has been a long time since I was on
a BB, not quite sure how it works any more. Suggestions are
welcome.
Thanks
Colleen
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 May 94 11:50:45 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: Gym
tidbits
An Atlanta newspaper mentioned that Kim Zmeskal's
first major event for
her comeback attempt will be
the U.S. Classic in August (!)
May 21st issue of the Phoenix
Gazette, byline: Jeff Metcalf
headline: FINAL
DAYS: MEN'S GYMNASTICS IN DECLINE-
"...when
the NCAA kicks the chair out from under the sport after next year,
death by strangling at the grass roots seems
inevitable."
------------------------------
Date: Fri,
27 May 94 00:29:40 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Karolyi/Zmeskal
Wasn't it Bela
who once said that gymnasts are at their peak at age 15 or
16?!? This was in response to Brandy Johnson's desire to
compete in 1992.
------------------------------
Date: Fri,
27 May 94 06:20:51 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Karolyi/Zmeskal
>Wasn't it Bela
who once said that gymnasts are at their peak at age 15 or
16?!? This was in response to Brandy Johnson's desire to
compete in 1992.
I would lay odds that if Brandy had returned to
train with him in 1992, she
would suddenly be at
her "peak" then!
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 May 94 12:17:54 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: lack of
alternate for Worlds
Mara asked:
> One thing that struck
me funny is that if 7 gymnasts will compete (6 per
> event),
I am surprised there will be no 8th gymnast as alternate. Can
> anyone
in gymn-land explain this?
Well, I guess the
best way to explain is to describe how the new system came
about. (Or at
least, this is how it was described to me.) The federations
complained
that they had to pay for all the expenses of a seventh gymnast to
travel, and that quite often the alternate was just as good
as most of her
teammates, yet s/he was not allowed
to compete. It seemed insane to
have a
perfectly good gymnast travel a long
distance merely to be there in case
something
happened to one of the top six.
So, the FIG changed the format so that
the trip would be more worthwhile for
the 7th
gymnast, and also ended up with the bonus of having a more exciting
competition format.
(Which six gymnasts are selected to compete on each
event -- it adds a whole new flavor to team
competition.)
So, anyways, the point (from my understanding) of
changing the format was to
allow the
"alternate" (no long an alternate) to compete-- therefore, it
would
defeat the purpose of the change to add an
eighth gymnast as an alternate.
Now, in regards to what should happen
should one of the seven gymnasts get
injured --
well, the team still has six gymnasts, and only five scores still
count per event, so it's certainly not the end of the
world. Now, if *two*
gymnasts get injured, that would be quite rough -- but
there's certainly less
chance of that than one
gymnast getting injured on the current team set-up.
Also, an added
bonus, is that assumably team line-ups per event will
be
changeable until a few hours (maybe as much as
24?) before competition. So,
if one gymnast gets injured, with the new format, the 7th
would be able to
assume the 6th spot on the team
for that event. Before, once the
first
session of competition commenced, then boom,
no substitutions allowed.
I, for one, am looking forward to the new
team setup, as it seems to be
pretty exciting, and
will invent some creative and no doubt controversial
strategies...
Rachele
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 May 94 09:47:33 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Men's
NCAA
Based on Craig's and Connie's posts, I would say that Men's
collegiate
gymnastics is, to put it mildly, in
very deep doo-doo.
This said, I would further say that it falls upon
USAG to pick up the slack
(unless they would see
US Men disappear from international competition
altogether.)
How
should this be done? Clubs on college campuses?
Augmenting current clubs?
We need ideas NOW, or there will be nothing to
pick up the slack if the
resuscitation efforts on
NCAA Mens Gymn fail...
David
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 25 May 94 22:22:55 EDT
From: ***@aluxpo.att.com
Subject: New
member..
I was originally going to respond to
this message saying - yes, it's a great
idea for
boys to start gymnastics at an early age. Scott is in 2nd grade
and training level 5. He started because he was always at
the gym because of
his sister - and it was a great
way to get rid of excess energy. It's
taught him a
tremendous amount with respect to discipline, focus etc. Not
to mention that it's been great physically (he's strong like
Sara), great
for hand/eye coordination (he just
started little league and after one practice
and
two games, he hit a home run), great for learning how to pay attention
(his
nickname in kindergarten was Tigger) etc., etc. He's definitely a leader among
his peer group.
And by starting at an early age, it wouldn't matter what
would happen later on when he was older, because he'd
already be able to prove
himself. Well, the later on didn't come in
the future - it came today.
Scott had on his "if gymnastics were
easy, they'd call it football" t-shirt.
One of the 6th graders (a
classmate of Sara) came up to him and told him that
gymnastics
was for gays. I asked Scott what he said to the kid - he said n
he said nothing, the situation didn't warrant it. But....I'm
wondering if
there is an appropriate response to a
comment like that. And is there anything
Sara should say to the kid to make
him understand. Changing perceptions at
an early
age seems to me a good idea. Any
suggestions would be appreciated.
Toby
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 25 May 1994 22:39:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@gateway.us.sidwell.edu
Subject:
New member..
On Wed, 25 May 1994, Toby
wrote:
> his peer group. And by starting at an early age, it
wouldn't matter what
> would happen later on
when he was older, because he'd already be able to prove
> himself.
Well, the later on didn't come in the future - it came today.
>
> Scott had on his "if gymnastics were easy, they'd call it
football" t-shirt.
> One of the 6th graders (a classmate of Sara)
came up to him and told him that
> gymnastics
was for gays. I asked Scott what he said to the kid - he said n
>
he said nothing, the situation didn't warrant it. But....I'm
wondering if
> there is an appropriate response
to a comment like that. And is there anything
> Sara should say to the
kid to make him understand. Changing perceptions at
> an
early age seems to me a good idea.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
While I haven't received
any such blatant comments, I must admit that the
general
attitude, especially at young ages, is to disclaim anything that
isn't what they believe is.. well, an action
falling under the
stereotypes developed by our
society. I think a lot of this
problem
really stems from the education system itslef, and from commercialized
sports
-- there are very distinct and strongly reinforced barriers
between the sports that a traditionally "men's sports"
and
"women's sports". It appears on TV, it's in the
advertisements, the
shows. It's in the educational system - sports
are segregated by sex as
early as 5th grade --
under the guise of segregation for
interschoolastic
purposes - the "league" won't accept coed teams or
such. It also
begins at home -- what sports children are encouraged to
play,
etc.
I remember a number of times when I was a lot younger where I
would
watch ballet on TV, and wonder what it was
like, but know firmly that I
could never participate
because it was distinctly female in nature - no
boys
I knew participated, girls were offered the chance by their parents
to try it, a few teachers I had at school would make
comments to the
effect that it was not for me,
etc. I used to wonder at the
coordination and skill required, and know that I couldn't do
it. That
was
deeply ingrained by the time I was 7.
With gymnastics, it was not
quite the same,
as I remember in 5th and 6th grade that, althuogh
the
majority of students in the school's gymnastics
class were female, there
were a significant number
of boys participating. But at that
same time,
the introduction of interscholastic
sports for the boys, such as the
epic
"football team" really lead to a lot of problems. By 7th grade,
every
boy who had signed up for gymnastics previously had decided not
to. It really is
that strong and pervasive.
As
for words of encouragement for your son - I'm not quite sure what to
offer. Merely
that I really hope you encourage him every step of the
way,
that when something unpleasent like that does occur,
you'll teach
him two things - first that no sport
should be stereotyped in this way,
and that just
because the majority of participants are of one sex, that
someone of the other sex shouldn't participate, and that the
word "gay"
in that context is an insult,
and that the term should NOT be used in
that
way. I know that here, use of the term as an insult would result
in
a lot of trouble for the student involved.
That doesn't stop the
regular use of derogatory
terms in reference to many groups, but it does
let
people know that if they are referred to that way as an insult, they
should do what they can to change it.
Well, this is
turning into a tale of ethics.
Maybe you can offer him a
quick story: I
was on a quaker workcamp
last weekend. We were bulding
low income housing out
somewhere in Maryland, and we were setting up the
walls,
which were prestructured (you get them, you put the
upright, you
nail it all together). I was one of two people who could simply
jump
up, grab the framework, and pull myself under
the beem, and on top. Of
the 17
people who attended in my age group.
And I'm happy to say I did
it with
finesse. This may seem a little
trivial, but it feels good
inside when that
happens. I'm sure if most people
here think about
that, they'll remember times
where a trained sense of balance, or more
controlled
and practiced muscles have helped.
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 25 May 94 23:49:40 PDT
From: ***@cisco.com
Subject: New member..
Scott had on his "if
gymnastics were easy, they'd call it football"
t-shirt. One of the 6th graders (a classmate of
Sara) came up to him
and told him that gymnastics was for gays. I
asked Scott what he said to
the
kid - he said n he said nothing, the situation didn't warrant it.
I
think Scott's repsonse was just about ideal, given
the circumstances.
If's he's going to wear a "football putdown"
T-shirt, he should be able
to take some ribbing in
return. And like it or not
"gymnasts are fags"
is the standard
putdown for male gymnasts.
Not responding at all to insults has a lot
going for it in general.
Here are some other ideas, most intended to
be slightly humorous, and
all are probably
"fighting words" when said to the wrong person, in the
wrong place, at the wrong time...
Chops's top ten responses to "gymnastics is for
gays"
10. "F^@# Off A&@#!&&" (Quote from "The
Terminator")
9. "You
have personal experience to back that up, do you?"
8. wink.
7. "Exactly what do you mean by that" Insist on
specifics, examples, etc.
6.
"I just like to work out with girls in tight leotards"
5. "Hey, I'm 8 years old. I'm not supposed to like girls
yet!"
:
Oh well, I
couldn't think of 10.
:
1. Adopt a puzzled, innocent look that says without words that you
can't
figure out why anyone would make such a sweeping generalization
about
anything, don't know why they'd care about the sexual preferences
of
an athlete anyway, and aren't really sure that being called gay
should
be considered an insult in any mature society, and ask:
"What's your
point?"
I'll admit that that last one is a little easier if
you're over thirty,
secure in your sexual
identity, and obviously straight (or obviously gay,
for
that matter), but...
For what it's worth, in NY public Jr High Schools, back when I grew
up,
gymnastics was just another
"segment" of gymn class. Everyone took it,
everyone
found out how hard it was, no one was good enough or knew enough
about gymnastics to even associate gymnastics with
"fags". I had never
heard of gymnastics till then, but there was an immediate
"click". First
time I, being three years too small and pathetically
un-athletic, got any
respect in gym class...
I
guess in some ways, the popularity of women's gymnastics has hurt the
image of men's gymnastics. It wan't so
long ago that it was just some
obscure sport that
few people knew anything about, like fencing, lacrosse,
crew,
sailing, or any number of unpopular sports...
Chops
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 1994 01:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject:
New member..
> Scott had on his
"if gymnastics were easy, they'd call it football"
> t-shirt.
>
> I think Scott's repsonse was just about ideal, given the
circumstances.
> If's he's going to wear a "football putdown"
T-shirt, he should be able
> to take some
ribbing in return. And like it or
not "gymnasts are fags"
> is the
standard putdown for male gymnasts.
Of course football players are
wimps. Real men play "rugby" !
{...}
> 6. "I just like to work out with
girls in tight leotards"
The rest of the datacentre
is staring at Texx
Texx
is ROFLOL
Texx is still Rolling On Floor Laughing
Out Loud
Texx is still Rolling On Floor Laughing
Out Loud
Texx is still Rolling On Floor Laughing
Out Loud
Texx is still Rolling On Floor Laughing
Out Loud
Texx is hysterical now
The rest
of the Data Centre is debating whether to call the paramedics...
Chops ! You PERVERT !
I LOVE IT !
Im not getting in a battle of wits with you, *I* am out gunned !
Texx is trying
to sit up now
> 5.
"Hey, I'm 8 years old. I'm not
supposed to like girls yet!"
I like the other one better!
{...}
> 1. Adopt a puzzled,
innocent look that says without words that you
> can't
figure out why anyone would make such a sweeping generalization
> about
anything, don't know why they'd care about the sexual preferences
> of
an athlete anyway, and aren't really sure that being called gay
> should
be considered an insult in any mature society, and ask:
> "What's your
point?"
>
> I'll admit that that last one is a little
easier if you're over thirty,
> secure in your
sexual identity, and obviously straight (or obviously gay,
> for that matter), but...
This is true. It really should not be an insult to be
called gay, but we still raise kids to think this. And so it goes on...
{...}
>
I guess in some ways, the popularity of women's gymnastics has hurt the
>
image of men's gymnastics.
I been wondering the same
thing...
I dont know if to laugh or cry of
the realization that this sport that has
a rep for
only being for "fags" that many schools have yanked the program
because of the risk !
What is wrong with this picture ? Hmmm ? (smirk!)
Owwww ! It hurts to
laugh this hard !
"Give blood ! Play rugby !" -Bumpersticker
-texx
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 1994 06:36:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@gateway.us.sidwell.edu
Subject:
New member..
On Thu, 26 May 1994, Texx wrote:
> Of course football players are
wimps. Real men play "rugby" !
I admit - those resposnes
are great ;). I think I'll have to
remember
them. I seem to remember about two years ago,
while spending a year in
England, that after the
first day of the fall Rugby season, only 3 people
had
broken legs, two sprained ankles, and 5 other minor injuries. Rugby
is
for real men who enjoy destroying their bodies. As is football, but
football is for men who are afraid they might get lice from
the other
players (hence the helmets?). I have never felt at all attracted by
the
opportunity to play football. Then again, I've never been greatly
attracted by the concept of men's laccross
(another gripe, if I do say so
myself) - niehter have I greatly desired to end up with people
running at
me holding sticks in their hand, and
doing their best to act like an
enraged bull.
>
> 6. "I just like to work
out with girls in tight leotards"
>
> The rest of the datacentre is staring at Texx
>
> Texx is ROFLOL
> Texx
is still Rolling On Floor Laughing Out Loud
> Texx
is still Rolling On Floor Laughing Out Loud
> Texx
is still Rolling On Floor Laughing Out Loud
> Texx
is still Rolling On Floor Laughing Out Loud
> Texx
is hysterical now
>
> The rest of the Data Centre is debating
whether to call the paramedics...
Robert decides he has much better thinggs to do than watch Texx
rolling on
the floor laughing loudly - such as do
so himself ;)
> > 1.
Adopt a puzzled, innocent look that says without words
that you
> >
can't figure out why anyone would make such a
sweeping generalization
> > about
anything, don't know why they'd care about the sexual preferences
>
> of an athlete anyway, and aren't really sure that being
called gay
> >
should be considered an insult in any mature
society, and ask:
> > "What's
your point?"
> >
> > I'll admit that that last one is
a little easier if you're over thirty,
> > secure
in your sexual identity, and obviously straight (or obviously gay,
>
> for that matter), but...
>
> This
is true. It really should not be an
insult to be called gay, but we still raise kids to think this. And so it goes on...
I think
that that response is probably the correct one, and I think it's
great that your son (well, Toby's son, if we really pay
attention to the
forwarding) responded the way he
did. Encourage him to act this
way,
it'll certainly make his life easier, and
probably yours when fifteen kids
are expelled from
the school due to drug use or such, and he isn't among
them. Sensibility is a great thing.
>
> I guess in some ways, the popularity of women's gymnastics has hurt
the
> > image of men's gymnastics.
>
> I been wondering the
same thing...
>
> I dont know if to
laugh or cry of the realization that this sport that has
> a rep for only being for "fags" that many schools
have yanked the program
> because of the risk
!
Who knows - all I can hope is that this changes someday. I think the best
way
for this to start changing is to encourage male participation in the
same way as we do female. If you have 20% of an age group participting in
a sport, both
male and female, then I don't think it'll pick up a
reputation. Besides, if statistics are to be believe,d, that's far above
11%,
meaning that at the very least, just under half the male/female
gymnasts are heterosexual ;). I think that there is a lot of
"hero-worship" of the female gymnasts, but not really of
the male gymnasts
(now for a low comment: except
for Susan's responses concerning their
butts?) and that could be changed relatively easily. Exposure at a young
age to sports as equal between genders is like leprosy - it
hangs around.
Well, maybe that's a really bad metafor,
but it works ;)
Robert
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 May
94 11:40:42 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: Re[2]:
Karolyi/Zmeskal
>Wasn't
it Bela who once said that gymnasts are at their peak
at age 15 or
16?!? This was in response to Brandy
Johnson's desire to compete in 1992.
>I would lay odds that if
Brandy had returned to train with him in 1992, she
would
suddenly be at her "peak" then!
Mara you are a true cynic in
this matter and in Kim's situation as well ;)
Rings true though...
Connie
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 94 10:04:44 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: Re[2]: Ungureanu
Connie
wrote:
>I couldn't help
wondering about Ungureanu....
Yes, I also think that she was
under-rated internationally. From
what I
remember from Montreal, Ungureanu's
dance style was much better than
Debbie-
You mentioned-
I'll have to check my IG's for the
club's name, but it's in Ardsley, NY,
which is
only about 15 minutes from where I live.
Maybe one day I'll run
into her at the
grocery store. :)
I checked an IG issue and found out that Ungureanu is working in a club named
Gymcats in Ardsley (these small unknowns can stick in my
head until I hunt
them down :) ). Heaven knows how long she'll stay, since
there seems to be
allot of gym hopping among
foreign coaches working in the U.S. .
Connie, a fellow New Yorker...
Debbie
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 May 94 12:35:05 BST
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Rhythmic
Europeans - (Day One)
Here's the first of the impressions that I
have from watching
the European Rhythmic
Gymnastics Championships on EuroSport:
The
European Rhythmic Gymnastics Championships 1994 from
Thessaloniki, Greece,
comprise of four days of competition
(26 - 29 May):
Day one and two are
the team competition, and at the end of
it the top
36 gymnasts will qualify for the Individual
All-Around
final to be held on Day three. The marks will
not
be carried forward. Day four is the Apparatus finals.
DAY ONE:
Each
of the gymnast perform two apparatus routines here with
the
rest of competition continuing on Day Two. Maria Petrova
(BUL)
the World Champion was excellent as ever with her
dramatic
Hoop routine (one of my favourite routines) and
with
new flute music to accompany her new Ball
routine. She scored
9.700 for both to lead jointly the individual standings
in the
team competition. Elena Vitrichenko
(UKR) was joint leader
with the day's best score
of 9.750 for her Rope and a 9.650
in Ball. My fave Larissa Lukianenko (BLR) did
a new dramatic
Hoop routine for 9.650, but dropped a club in her Clubs
routine
to score only 9.550. She is currently
third. Larissa was of
course out of competition
for a while when she broke her foot
in last year's
Worlds and in the few tournaments before the
Europeans she was making
mistakes in all her apparatus
routines. Maria Petrova was not in her best conditions either
coming into this as the critics said she's put on a bit of
weight. Amina Zaripova (RUS) is fourth with her suppleness
shown clearly in her Ball exercise, but once dropped her
Hoop.
Diana Popova (BUL) is fifth, joint with
Ekaterina
Serebrianskaya (UKR) who did an iffy
Ribbon exercise for only
9.200. Olga Gontar
(BLR), the 14-year-old European junior
Champ, and my tip to the top, is
seventh, and Magdalena
Brzeska (GER) is eighth
coming into Day Two.
The other big names include:
Tatiana Ogrizko (BLR) had a poor Ribbon for 9.150.
Julia Rosliakova (RUS) dropped Ball for 9.350.
Lenka Oulehlova (CZE) the veteran
was performing well but
not getting hig enough marks
(9.050 RP, 9.000 BL)
Alina Stoica
(ROM) led the Romanian contingent after Irina
Deleanu
finally retired.
Ianina Batyrchina
(RUS) was seond in junior Euro last year
and now making
her mark in Senior ranks.
Irene Germini and Katia
Pietrosanti are keeping the Italians
in the Top Five
with good routines.
Day One Team Standings Top Five
(These are
not Final Results!)
1.
Ukraine 47.350
2. Bulgaria 47.300
3. Belarus 47.100
4. Russia 46.550
5. Italy 45.950
Day
One Individuals Standings Top Eight
(after two
apparatus)
(Top 36 qualify for AA, scores will not carry over)
1. Maria Petrova (BUL) 19.400
1. Elena Vitrichenko (UKR) 19.400
3. Larissa Lukianenko (BLR) 19.200
4. Amina Zaripova (RUS) 18.900
5. Diana Popova (BUL) 18.850
5. Ekaterina Serebrianskaya (UKR) 18.850
7. Olga Gontar (BLR) 18.750
8. Magdalena Brzeska (GER) 18.700
I'll post the rest after
they've taken place, but they'll
be on Monday
though.
Sherwin :)
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 May 94 08:50:55 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Rhythmic
Europeans - (Day One)
>1. Ukraine 47.350
2. Bulgaria 47.300
3. Belarus 47.100
4. Russia 46.550
5. Italy 45.950
>1. Maria Petrova (BUL) 19.400
1. Elena Vitrichenko (UKR) 19.400
3. Larissa Lukianenko (BLR) 19.200
4. Amina Zaripova (RUS)
18.900
5. Diana Popova (BUL)
18.850
5. Ekaterina Serebrianskaya (UKR) 18.850
7. Olga Gontar (BLR) 18.750
8. Magdalena Brzeska (GER) 18.700
Where is
Spain?!
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 May 94 14:21:03 BST
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Rhythmic
Europeans - (Day One)
>
Where is Spain?!
I only saw Amaya Cardenoso
competing for Spain so I assume
Carmen Acedo and
Carolina Pascual have both retired???
I only
copied down the top five teams so I don't know
where
Spain are at the moment (I'll keep an eye out for
them
in the future).
Sherwin
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 May 94 14:21:22 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Rhythmic
Europeans - (Day One)
>Where is Spain?!
Thats a good question where is Spain ((its between
France
and Portugal isnt it boom boom :) sorry bad joke),
Carmen Acedo and Carolina Pascual should
if
all things were equal both be up there in the
top eight.
Clive
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 May 94 14:43:24 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Rhythmic
Europeans - (Day One)
>I only saw Amaya Cardenoso
competing for Spain so I assume
>Carmen Acedo
and Carolina Pascual have both retired???
Retired !!!, they were the best the Spanish team had.
Maybe
they are both injured, I cant see both
of them retiring yet.
Clive.
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 May 94 10:59:14 -0400
From: ***@riscee.bxb.dec.com
Subject:
status of NCAA Men's gymnastics
In the Boston Globe today, there was a
small article about the status of men's
collegiate
gymnastics. Paraphrasing:
There
is new legislation within the NCAA that requires a minimum of 40 teams
for a sport to exist within the NCAA. In 1976, there were 138 colleges
with
men's gymnastics programs; now there are only
35. There is a quote by
Richard
Aronson, who was the ULowell coach back
when I competed competed
against them
with UMass, who is now the executive
director for the National Association of
College Gymnastics Coaches, saying "I'm concerned about the 32,000 male
gymnasts, ages 8 to 17, and what they have to look forward
to after they move up
from the club
levels". He is currently
looking for politicians to contact
college
athletic directors to change the legislation in January. If this
doesn't
happen, the last men's gymnastics NCAA championship may be after next
year. Pretty sad.
Steve
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 94 09:38:28 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Tabloid Tattle
or Could it Really Happen
>he suggested
that especially
in the sport of Gymnastics
>that because the
marks given are of a
subjective orientation that
gymnasts who
felt they had been harshly marked
would
>resort to sueing
the judges of the sport for
perceived loss of earnings which would result
>from them missing out as it where.
Without
question this is tabloid tattle as regards gymnastics, but it's an
interesting thought...*something's* got to set the judging
straight. ;) A
suit like
that would never get off the ground, though, starting with the fact
that damages would be *extremely* speculative.
What
will be interesting is the judgment for Butch Reynolds. The IAAF hasn't
paid
and are thumbing their noses at the US court which has no power to
enforce the judgment, but the second those people set foot
on American soil,
which presumably they'll have to
do in '96, they're toast.
Adriana
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 94 15:19:35 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Tabloid
Tattle or Could it Really Happen
>Without
question this is tabloid tattle as regards
>gymnastics,
but it's an interesting thought...
>*something's*
got to set the judging straight.
;)
Agreed it was just tabloid journalism, but the
fact remains it could happen.
Take for example what
happened in the Womens
Europeans recently an
extra tenth was given to a routine
when it
shouldn't have been and if that extra tenth
of a
mark had been the difference between first and
second.
>A
suit like that would never get off the ground,
>though,
starting with the fact that damages would
>be
*extremely* speculative.
A year ago I would have agreed with you, you
cant
speculate on what you might earn in the
future but
currently there is a litigation being
decided upon
in the High Court between two
professional
footballers (the rest of the world
calls them soccer
players) and the defendant is
being sued for
perceived loss of earnings that the
prosecution
has speculated he would have earnt.
So there is a legal precedant
for this kind of
case and once the precedant is set........
Clive
I am
too opinionated to represent anyone elses
opinions.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 May 94
10:18:28 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Tabloid Tattle or Could it Really Happen
I would hope that the
prospect of such a lawsuit would be nothing more than
tabloid
tattle. While I would agree that there are incinsistencies
in
judging, as long as any part of scoring is
subjective by design, and as long
as judges are
only held accountable in extreme cases, this will continue to
be the case.
Nonetheless, when an gymnast takes to
the floor in competition, there is a
silent
contract that takes place between that gymnast and the governing body
of that competition. It says "I, an athlete competing
in an event sanctioned
by this body, am agreeing
to compete bound by the rules and practices of that
body,
and will accept whatever judgement made on my performance
in accordance
with those rules and
practices."
This means that as long as judging takes place within
the parameters of the
code of the governing body,
the athlete gives up at that time and for the
future
the right to take legal action on the basis of any judgement
or series
of judgements.
If judging violates the code of the governing body, the
governing
body is obliged to immediately rectify the situation or face legal
action. Of course, there is still an insufficient body of
precedent to
determine whether a case like this is
winnable.
As to loss of earnings: In regards to the case of the two
footballers, there
are subtle differences between
British and American commercial law that make
it
impossible to use this precedent in a U.S. court. Unless there were
contracts on the table beforehand or documentation of some
form to prove that
there were deals pending, this
one's a wash.
So in order to win such a case, an attorney for a
gymnast would need proof
that judging was overly
subjective in the case of his client, and that there
were
actual earnings on the line.
While a case could be made without these
preconditions, I would sincerely
hope that no
gymnast would ever consider lowering the level of gymnastics to
that of tabloid journalism simply for personal
aggrandizement. That reeks of
poor sportsmanship,
and is ample justification for censure.
David
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 1994 14:09:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject:
Tabloid Tattle or Could it Really Happen
I am
actually scared of exactly thast happening.
I
am usually proud to be a "yank".
I fly the flag of the US, Texas
and the POW/MIA.
"Tanyagate"
disgusted me and made me ashamed to be an American.
Her whole attitude
is the "If you dont do as I say I'll get Reebock to buy
me enough
lawyers to bankrupt you". It
made me sick !
Fact of the matter is the USOC
"owns" each slot on the team and if they want to
reassign the slot they should be able to. She also signed a document that
said she would not be involved in any scandal that could
besmirch her sport.
Whether or not she was guilty of the attack, she
handled herself poorly
and legally should have
been tossed off the team for that.
But NO ! She thinks the rules are for others and
not her !
Back to gymn... We should make sure the members of our
sport know that if they
allow anything near "Tanyagate" to happen in Gymnastics, that the rest of
us
will hunt them down and {disgusting revenge
deleted} to them.
Perhaps, this is crude, but a gymnast will be more
likely to behave as a good
sport, knowing that
there is unpleasantness awaiting them should they misbehave.
-texx
"The first
thing we do is kill all the lawyers !" (Shakespear ?)
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 1994 14:41:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject:
Tabloid Tattle or Could it Really Happen
The
idea of suing a judge for a poor score disgusts me !
Since
when does the competition owe an athlete an endorsement career
?
The competition owes the athlete one thing and one thing
only.
That they will be judged as uniformly as possible against the others
there and
against the standards.
Suggesting
that the athletes are owed anything more is ludicrous at the least
!
OK, Ill concede the competition owes the athletes one other
thing, safetey
during
the competition as well. But thats it !
-texx
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 94 09:29:15 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Tabloid
Tattle or Could it Really Happen
While I was
reading a tabloid newspaper
yesterday I came
across an article
written by the Chief Sports
writer about
the week in sport.
So what
I hear you say, well the main article
was about
sport in general, but there was
tucked away in
the corner a heading, 'Atlanta
braces itself for
litigation'.
Intrigued I read on, it started off making
several snide remarks about the amount of
litigation that goes on in America, and he
suggested that the Olympics in Atlanta in
1996 would be
no different, he suggested
that especially in the
sport of Gymnastics
that because the marks given
are of a
subjective orientation that gymnasts who
felt they had been harshly marked would
resort to sueing the judges of the
sport for
perceived loss of earnings which would result
from them missing out as it where.
Interesting
concept dont you think, now the
article is all based on speculation and was
part of an article where the writer just voices
his opinions on sport and anyway we would hope
common sense would prevail if such a situation
arose, but it does raise the issue could it really
happen.
Think about it.
Clive.
I
am too opinionated to represent anyone elses
opinions.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 May 94
00:07:06 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Team Worlds US team
selection
I just got the May (?) issue of Technique, and IMHO, the
selection criteria
for the US team to Worlds
deserve brief mention. The gist of
it is:
Men: Top 7 men from
US Nationals (60% Compos/40% Opt.).
No petitions.
Women:
Shannon Miller (as long as she can perform 8 complete but
non-scored
routines at final trials) is on the
team.
Top 16 women (including ties) from US Nationals will compete at
a final
trials in October. Top 7 will make the team (also 60%
Compos/40% Opts).
Petitions allowed for 93 & 94 national team members.
One
thing that struck me funny is that if 7 gymnasts will compete (6 per
event), I am surprised there will be no 8th gymnast as
alternate. Can anyone
in gymn-land explain this?
Mara
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 1994 00:55:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject:
Toby's son
Toby's post opened old wounds....
Children can be
really brutal at times...
Unfortunately, the unfortunate remark that was
made by the 6th grader
was a product of the values
the kid's family raised them with.
> I was originally going to
respond to this message saying - yes, it's a great
> idea
for boys to start gymnastics at an early age. Scott is in 2nd grade
> and training level 5. He started because he was always at
the gym because of
> his sister - and it was a
great way to get rid of excess energy. It's
> taught
him a tremendous amount with respect to discipline, focus etc. Not
> to mention that it's been great physically (he's strong like
Sara), great
> for hand/eye coordination (he
just started little league and after one practice
> and
two games, he hit a home run), great for learning how to pay attention
(his
> nickname in kindergarten was Tigger) etc., etc. He's definitely a leader among
> his peer group.
And by starting at an early age, it wouldn't matter what
> would happen later on when he was older, because he'd
already be able to prove
> himself. Well, the later on didn't come in
the future - it came today.
Encourage him to continue despite the
taunts.
When his classmates are all invalids, he will still be moving.
There
are all sorts of applications in life for gymnastics.
It happens all
the time. I tap my gymn background leaving everyone going
"Howdhedoodat?"
Without gymn,
I would have been killed or severely crippled, when the
1989 Loma Prieta earthquake tossed me out of a satelite
dish and let
me fall a few stories.
My
flexibility made me money because I could crawl through the bilges of
boats
doing work for a marine electronics
firm.
Dive rolls have saved me from a couple lightning
strikes, vaulting has pulled
me away from numerous industrial accidents.
There
will come a time when he suddenly realizes that he is as strong, more
agile, more trim and in general more fit than the school footbal team.
If he stays with it, when hes 40 he will still have a remarkable body when
the rest of the world wishes that theirs would just go
away.
Those very guys who made wise cracks about his masculinity will be
jealous
of his bod.
I got teased about it
in high school and one guy I suckered onto highbar.
It
took him about 3 min to get a severe rip enough to keep him out of the
wrestling meet that week.
(How can wrestling be macho ? Have you
looked where the guys put their hands
when they grab each other?)
> Scott had on his
"if gymnastics were easy, they'd call it football" t-shirt.
I
LOVE that tee-shirt ! Ill have to get one made for me !
> One of the 6th graders (a classmate of
Sara) came up to him and told him that
> gymnastics
was for gays.
I used to get that all the time!
Once I realized
that maybe I might be "one of Dorothy's people"
it quit bothering me, but it bothered the hell out of me
when they started
picking on my straight team
mates.
> I asked Scott what he said to the kid - he said nothing,
> the situation didn't warrant it.
You got a real mature
kid there. Well raised too!
Most
kids would have gotten into a fight.
He did the right thing.
His
personal safety would also be a concern when a 6th grader picks on a 2nd.
Then
again perhaps Scott could mop up the floor with the bully, but that isnt
ethical thoiugh...
> But....I'm
wondering if
> there is an appropriate response
to a comment like that. And is there anything
> Sara should say to the
kid to make him understand. Changing perceptions at
> an
early age seems to me a good idea.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Start by sharing my post here with
him.
(Ive been there, and I KNOW there is light
on the other side of the tunnel)
I hope your daughter does not
consider this pint sized clod a friend.
I
wonder what the reaction would be when the rude child was informed of how
many pro football players take ballet class to help their
game ?
I also wonder how this 6th grade kid could be such an authority
on what is and
is not gay ? (Firsthand knowledge? But I wouldnt
point it out, might cause a
fight and teachers
hate fights)
Does that mean that because I can do diesel mechanics
that Im straight afterall ?
Last I knew 6th
graders love picking on secondgraders!
One of the
fastest ways to destroy a boy is to call him a sissy.
My guess is that this
bully would have picked on him one way or another
even
if Scotts gymnastics wasnt known.
I was
surprised to discover that many of the people who called me
"fag"
had no idea that I was one. They were just trying to bug me and that
was their
method to get
to me. (Men have more fragile egos
than we like to admit!)
I doubt that a kid like that bully has any
hope of being "turned around".
I took heat for some long
posting last winter griping about how we raise our
male
children in this country. Well, you
can see from Toby's post that
this braindead attitudes have entrenched themselves in yet another
generation!
I see that I am right...
(The ONE time I wish I were wrong!)
Most important of all !
>From time to time being a male gymnast
brings teasing and other assorted
heartache. But I SWEAR ! It DOES get better !
When
the smoke finally clears, you end up laughing at all the people who teased
you because indeed THEY were the losers ! They are just too dumb to realize
it now.
All the jocks who
teased me about gymnastics, all ended up washed out before 30,
and most are in poor health living dreary lives.
"The
best revenge, is to live well without them!" - Scott Andrew Mc Gowan
-texx
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 25 May 94 22:57:51 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Trivia Questions
Needed!!!
C'mon guys, I need Trivia Questions
Topic - Chinese
Gymnasts
No questions, no trivia...
Mara
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 25 May 1994 14:57:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject:
WWW
WWW=World Wide Web
Many of you on AOL love the MAC click
interface.
On internet there is a data
research tool called Mosaic that allows you
to tap
the WWW.
My new contract has me writing WWW pages.
There isnt a gymnastics one yet!
I am offering to write
one!
You gotta see
this thing running to believe it?
You click on a subject and you can
get text, still pictures, moving pictures
and
sound !
Anyway I will soon be doing a gymn
page. First I will mention the
existence
of the list. After that I will add whatever info that the list deems apropriate
What
do you all want added ?
-texx
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 25 May 94 20:54 EDT
From: ***@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject: WWW
>WWW=World
Wide Web
>
>Many of you on AOL love the MAC click interface.
>
>On
internet there is a data research tool called Mosaic
that allows you
>to tap the WWW.
There's
also a Mosaic for IBM compatible machines running Windows as
well as one for Unix machines running X-windows. All are freely
available
from the National Center for Supercomputer Applications at
the University of Illinois. We also have them in "special"
packages
here at Penn State on our anonymous FTP
server (ftp.cac.psu.edu,
directory access).
Of
course, one has to have access to the Internet in order to use them
on your machine.
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 25 May 1994 21:08:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@gateway.us.sidwell.edu
Subject:
WWW
On Wed, 25 May 1994, Texx wrote:
>
> WWW=World Wide Web
>
> Many of you on AOL love the MAC
click interface.
>
> On internet there
is a data research tool called Mosaic that allows you
> to tap the WWW.
>
> My new contract has me
writing WWW pages.
> There isnt a gymnastics
one yet!
>
> I am offering to write one!
>
> You gotta see this thing running to
believe it?
>
> You click on a subject and you can get text,
still pictures, moving pictures
> and sound
!
>
> Anyway I will soon be doing a gymn
page. First I will mention the
existence
> of the list. After that I will add whatever info that the list deems apropriate
>
> What do you all want added ?
Hey!
;). I administrate the WWW site
here at Sidwell - so if you need any
help or such, let me know. I'd offer to host the WWW site, but our
line
capacity is too low. One thing you might look into is the
USGF gopher
possibilities - I sent email asking
about whether they had any intention
in putting up
a gopher of their data/whatever, and they said they couldn't
afford it, but they might be willing to participate if this
was offered to
them for free. Give them a try at USGF@delphi.com and
let them know. If
you do have lots of images, make sure you use thumbnail scetches on the
home page,
because for those of us who SLIP from home and use Mosaic, it's
nice to be able to receive it at a reasonable speed ;). I think this is a
great
idea, let me know what the http address is so I can put it up here
on our home page.
Robert
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 25 May 1994 18:28:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject:
WWW
Yeah the problem is not in getting a site to serve me.
The
problem is getting a site to serve my pages AND give me login
access to maintain them. Other wise I have to deliver a tape and
wait for THEM
to load it online WHENEVER they get
around to it.
UGH!
Thanks for the sketch issue. Ill remember
it!
-texx
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 94 10:29:34 +0200
From: ***@cheeta.inesc.pt
Subject:
WWW
>WWW=World Wide Web
>
>Many of you on AOL love the MAC click
interface.
>
>On internet
there is a data research tool called Mosaic that allows you
>to tap the
WWW.
>
>My new contract has me writing WWW
pages.
>There isnt a gymnastics one yet!
>
>I am offering to write one!
>
>You gotta see this thing running to believe it?
>
>You click on a subject and you can
get text, still pictures, moving pictures
>and sound
!
>
>Anyway I will soon be doing a gymn page.
First I will mention the existence
>of the
list. After that I will add
whatever info that the list deems apropriate
>
>What do you all want added ?
Hi,
It sounds great. I have seen many WWW
pages working and the Mosaic
appearance is very
good.
I think the gymn CALENDAR should be there. Don't you?
Good Luck
--GoodFredo--
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 May 94 01:23:40 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Zmeskal/Karolyi
Hi all -
I was just wondering if anyone had seen the Karolyi
interview and was
wondering what he said.
Thanks.
Lee :)
------------------------------
End
of gymn Digest
******************************