gymn Digest                 Mon, 25 Apr 94       Volume 2 : Issue 114

Today's Topics:
                        Chinese Women (2 msgs)
                          diving, Jenny Keim
              FYI --  TDR Journal of Performance Studies
                George Atkins NCAA Women - Team Finals
                            Gordon Maddux
                          Men's AA (2 msgs)
               Men's AA & Women's EF Comments (2 msgs)
                   Milo's Dance, Dawes' BB, etc etc
                        More Worlds. (4 msgs)
                            NCAA's on TV?
                           NCAA Men's stuff
                     NCAA Women's quotes (4 msgs)
             NCAA women - event finals - complete scores
                       New member introduction
                       Random comments (2 msgs)
                         UCLA Men's Repreive
                     Women's AA comments (2 msgs)
                           Worlds Comments

This is a digest of the mailing list. 


Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 07:33:48 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Chinese Women

>Luo Li is definitely not "Lu
Li". Will the Chinese never cease coming up with better and more interesting
UB sets? She blew my mind (as did Mo).

If they have a few more like these, they could be a real threat as a team in
the next couple of years!!!  I was very impressed.



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 10:06:26 PDT
From: ***
Subject: Chinese Women

Mara Writes:

>If they have a few more like these, they could be a real threat as a team in
>the next couple of years!!!  I was very impressed.

Hate to break the news to you, but the Chinese have phenomenal depth on the
women's side. They are also in the midst of developing some unbelievable bar
tricks. When I was at Beijing last summer before the National Games, all of
the girls from gyms around the country were there warming up. They were
pulling tricks in practice that they weren't quite ready to introduce into
competition--but that were indeed amazing.

There is greater emphasis on strength coming from the provinces that have
former Soviet coaches on their staffs. This will mean major improvements in
tumbling and vault over the next two years. Watch the Chinese...



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 09:29:44 +0600
From: ***
Subject: diving, Jenny Keim

> From *** Fri Apr 22 23:38 CDT 1994
> Subject: Re: diving
> I recall reading an article on Jenny that said she was at Karolyi's for 2 or
> 3 years, and had a career-ending back injury when she was 9 OR 10!!!  She
> then moved to diving.
> Does anyone know if this is correct?  The article was a few years ago.

When the Olympic Festival was in Minneapolis in 1990, Jenny Keim was
the phenom of platform diving because she was 12 or 13. The story I
remember was that she cracked a vertebra. No details about how.
Bela Karolyi suggested that she try diving, since Phoebe had taken it up.

The U.S. Diving spring indoor nationals were in Minneapolis last week.
I got to see the prelims of the women's platform. I remember that Phoebe
made it into the finals (top 12). I don't remember what place Jenny K. had.
I didn't get to see the finals.   :(


Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 22:31:54 EDT
From: ***@MIT.EDU
Subject: FYI --  TDR Journal of Performance Studies

Hope you guys don't mind the blatant advertising, but I got sent this, and
figured some of you might have an interest...

(I have not connection to this journal)


------- Forwarded Message

Subject: announcing: TDR T141 (Spring 1994)

  Dear listowner: we thought your subscribers might be interested in
  us. If you agree, please post the following announcement. Thanks.

     ...You may have never heard us, yet you may be interested in...
                    ______   ______     ______
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                      ##|    ##|   ##|  ######/   
                      ##|    ##|__##/   ##|  ##\     
  ___________________ ##|    ######/    ##|   ##\_______________________

          The Journal of Performance Studies  T141 (Spring 1994)
  TDR is a journal that explores the diverse world of performance.
  How does this relate to you? The journal emphasizes the intercultural,
  inter-disciplinary and spans numerous geographical areas and historical
  periods. TDR addresses performance issues of every kind: theatre, music
  dance, entertainment, media, sports, politics, aesthetics of everyday
  life, games, play, and ritual. TDR is for people in the performing
  arts, the social sciences, academics, activists and theorists--anyone
  interested thinking about the "performance" paradigm. The journal, is
  edited by Richard Schechner of the Department of Performance Studies,
  New York University, and is published quarterly by MIT Press.

  Although TDR is not yet an electronic journal, you can browse through
  sample articles online and subscribe via e-mail from the Electronic
  Newsstand or directly from MIT, the publisher (see directions below).
  TDR is edited by Richard Schechner of the Department of Performance
  Studies, New York University, and published quarterly by MIT Press.
  Check out our table of contents:

  // In This Issue (T141 Spring 1994) \\
  TDR & NEA: The Continuing Saga - TDR Comment by Richard Schechner (editor)
  In Memory of Utpal Dutt - by Sudipto Chatterjee
  In Memory of Robert W. Corrigan - by Richard Schechner
  Free Giveaway of His Plays - by Richard Foreman
  Marxism, Melodrama, and Theatre Historiography - Dan Gerould responds
  Eelka Lampe Responds to Masakuni Kitazawa
  Native Earth and Jennifer Preston - a letter from Alan Filewood
  Retiring or Recharging? - a letter from Richard E. Kramer

  Muhammed and the Virgin: Folk Dramatization of Battles Between Moors
     and Christians - by Max Harris
  "A Radiant Smile from the Lovely Lady": Overdetermined Femininity in
     "Ladies" Figure Skating - by Abigail M. Feder
  Tomas Schmit: A Fluxus Farewell to Perfection - interview by Gunther Berghaus
  Going Going Gone: Theatre and American Culture(s) - by Bradley Boney
  Whatever Happened to the Sleepy Mexican?: One Way to be a Contemporary
     Mexican in a Changing World Order - by Yareli Arizmendi
  The New World Border: Prophecies for the End of the Century -
     by Guillermo Gomez-Pena
  The Other History of Intercultural Performance - by Coco Fusco

  //Book Reviews\\
  Women and Comedy: Rewriting the British Theatrical Tradition (by Susan
     Carlson) - reviewed by Lizbeth Goodman
  Gender in Performance: The Presentation of Difference in the Performing
     Arts (edited by Laurence Senelick) - reviewed by Kim Marra
  The National Stage: Theatre and Culture Legitimation in England, France
     and American (by Loren Kruger) - reviewed by Susan Manning
  Actors and Onlookers: Theater and Twentieth-Century Scientific Views of
     Nature (by Natalie Crohn Schmitt), The Actor's Instrument: Body, Theory,
     State (by Hollis Huston), The End of Acting a Radical View (by Richard
     Hornby), Acting (by John Harrop) - all reviewed by Phillip B. Zarrilli
  Each TDR issue is filled with photographs, artwork, and scripts that
  illustrate every article. The journal, founded in 1955, is 7 x 10, and
  a 184 pages per issue.
  // Come browse and subscribe \\
  1. MIT Press Online
      To access MIT Press Online Catalogs and subscription informaton:
      telnet /Around MIT/MIT Press/journals/arts/
      You can also access MIT via Gopher in USA/massachusetts/MIT/

      To subscribe to TDR through MIT Press, send e-mail to:

      MIT Press Journals, 55 Hayward Street, Cambridge, MA 02142-1399 USA.
      Tel: (617) 253-2889   Fax: (617)258-6779  

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      You can browse through an article from our latest issue and
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------- End of Forwarded Message


Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 13:52 MST
Subject: George Atkins NCAA Women - Team Finals

I read with interest your comments on the Women's NCAAs here at Utah.
Thought that most of your comments were right on target and quite fair.
However, I would like to take issue on just a couple because I didn't see
them the way you did.  Not to flame, as I said, most of your comments were on
the money.  The crowd expectations in *collegiate sport* are what you saw on
Friday night.  I didn't consider it ugly at all, frankly I'm pretty tired of
the dead-pan virtually silent crowds of most gymnastics meets.  As gymnastics
has become more and more of an entertainment event - all of us better get
used to it - good or bad.  Moreover, the crowd didn't behave any differently
than they do during dual meets, which by the way tend to outdraw the
nationals. It is not uncommon for crowds of 15K to come for a dual meet here.
 As for the cheering when a girl fell off the beam, nothing could be further
from the truth.  The cheering was for a performance elsewhere in the arena -
not for the lack of one.  As for the knowledge of the crowd, I think you
won't find a crowd more knowledgable about gymnastics anywhere else in
America.  Most of these fans have been following Utah gymnastics for 10 years
or more.  Trust me, they know what is going on.
     As for the scoring, your general comments are right on.  The scores are
too high, and they do not always reflect the performance.  Unfortunately,
this has been argued ever since I began gymnastics as a competitor/coach over
25 years ago.  I also thought that the crowd helped Utah, but not by scores.
It simply helped the Utah kids perform above themselves.  I could take issue
with judging on a whole variety of fronts, but I thought that given the
terrain in this case the placings were about right.  I must also admit that I
wonder with judging as subjective as it is, in general, if it might not be
more fair to consider anything within 0.5 points in team score a tie.
Again, thanks for your report.


Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 01:15:40 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Gordon Maddux

>BTW, I've never received an answer to my long-held question, "Whatever
>happened to Gordon Maddux?"  Is he still alive???

I thought I mentioned I saw him do women's Pac-10's two or three years ago.
He was awful; never left the '70's.  More recently than that, I don't know.

-- Gimnasta


Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 01:35:15 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Men's AA

>Just wanted to say that I did not agree with your comment on Soviet
men kissing each other on the lips.....that is common place for that

Well, it appears no one understood that comment.  I'm perfectly well aware of
the fact that men kissing each other on the lips is commonplace for Soviets.
I also don't have any problem whatever with that custom (or with men kissing
each other for other reasons, for that matter).  None of this, however, has
*anything* to do with the fact that men's gymnastics has a "wus" or "fag"
reputation in some (widespread) circles in the US and that the kissing might
reinforce that reputation.  That is *all* I said.  This *doesn't* mean I
think it should stop, nor do I think it should stop appearing on TV; I think
the problem is with the bozos who see a problem with it, and those same bozos
probably wouldn't catch on to the fact that it's commonplace in the former
USSR and doesn't mean the men who do it are necessarily gay (and so what if
they are?).  I hope I've managed to clarify my comment.

-- Gimnasta


Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 12:50:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: <***>
Subject: Men's AA

On Sun, 24 Apr 1994 *** wrote (in part):

> Scherbo falls once, screws up rings and still places 3rd?

Yeah, that was like Miller falling off beam in '93 US Championships and
still getting third...

> I loved the part of the '50 Worlds when they said gymnastics is about "well
> mannered muscles."  How apt! :)

The '50 Worlds footage was pretty well placed and relevant, in my opinion.
I always find it fascinating to see how gymnastics has changed in the past
decades.  Footage of *really* old meets like that is often pretty
humourous too (I have "Gymnastics Greatest Stars" and I love stuff like
Vera Caslavska winning Olympic AA with a Yami on vault, and Ludmilla
Tourischeva winning Olympic AA with a handspring-full).



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 01:16:41 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Men's AA & Women's EF Comments

>The guys should NOT
wear colored pants as it totally distracts from their line.

I didn't mind Scherbo's blue; thought it looked ok.  I'd stick to white (or,
rather, that kind of off-white, so it's not so blinding) if I were a guy,

A while back, Mara challenged anyone to find a Worlds-level gymnast
approximating Janet Jones' age (in American Anthem).  Well, Khorkina may not
*be* 30, but she looks it. =)

>but the "dance" (I HATE to call it that)  is such an insult to "Carmen".


>Also the  most difficult Chinese tumbling I've
ever seen (even if she didn't hit it here).

Chen Cuiting's was about as hard.  She ended with a double back, but she had
a whip to piked full-in and a whip to double back (and more power and better
technique and execution than Mo).

>>Maybe part of the reason men's gymnastics can't shake the "wus" or "fag"
image in the US is  the Soviet men kissing each other on the lips.

>In most cultures other than the US that is very accepted behaveior (I mean
>it's not like the slip each other the tongue or anything!  It's a peck on
>lips...get over it). The Soviet's think that the accepted patting of each
other's butts by American athletes is very gross. BTW, you will never >find a
more homophobic society than that of the USSR!

My statement wasn't intended as a judgment on men kissing each other; it was
intended to say exactly what it said, nothing more and nothing less.

-- Gimnasta


Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 09:28:21 BST
From: ***
Subject: Men's AA & Women's EF Comments

Loads of stuff deleted that Susan said.
>How come when Dawes misses a vault it's "bad luck" and when a
gymnast from
>another country makes an error it's  due to "lack of concentration"?

I saw it but I don't think too much was said about it on Eurosport
or the BBC other than the explanation of how it happened.

Did ABC show the vault when Shannon fell on her butt, Id love
to hear how they explained that.

I will post later on more observations from the worlds.



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 01:16:18 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Milo's Dance, Dawes' BB, etc etc

>When I said that Milos was better in dance I meant than Shannon (and the few
>others we saw)  and her  own past sets. She's at least trying to be
artistic...she IS Romanian so that's pretty darn tough.

I really didn't think her dance was especially *better* than Shannon's, just
a different style, though at least it was new, and she did seem to be trying
to be artistic (in its choreography, not its performance), both things better
than Shannon.  And it certainly was way better than her own past sets.  I
think the problems with Shannon's were that 1)  the routine is just too old
2) she didn't seem to be paying as much attention to dancing well (probably a
result of (1) and also of (3)) 3)  the new tumbling seemed to me to detract
from the overall dance/tumbling integrity of the routine  4)  she used to
have a series of difficult dance elements (too many actually, but I think now
too few) and she was one of very few who could actually complete the splits
and turns in them and get full credit).  I actually have always liked the
routine (in its '92-'93 incarnation) because I think 1) if Shannon were a
musical instrument, she'd be a violin playing that piece; I think that music
is perfect for her (maybe that's why she's having trouble finding a new one)
2)  I thought the choreography, and even the tumbling (esp when she did the
whipbacks to double full punch front), fit the music really well and had nice
details  3) she didn't dance expressively with her face, but I thought she
was pretty good with her arms, was attentive to the detail (didn't just go
through the movements, at least not as blah-ly as a Kim, but was car
eful and *delicate* about it).

Ok, after that lengthy expose. . .

>Dawes vault... [ ]  There should be additional deductions for form
breaks and loss of least those things used to count.

I didn't see much by way of form breaks on that vault, just the leg
separation on the pre-flight.  I thought her legs were straight and together
on the post-flight (as together as bow-legs are going to get, anyway, but her
ankles were together).  "Loss of control"?  Isn't that the same as balance
break or fall (which is what happens when you lose control)?

>Dawes BB.
Thank God, she didn't get the gold!!!! Her content is good but her
>form...Ohmygawd...It couldn't be worse if she tried (at least I hope not!).
>Never a pointed toe, or  a moment on revele   (up on her toes), never a
>straight leg (those flip-flops!!!! You could drive a semi between her
legs...) I know I've said this before, and I will undoubtably say it >again,
where the hell are the form deductions?

Couldn't agree more -- bent and separated legs all over the ff's, and I
scream every time Kathy J. says she should have won at Birmingham (well, I
don't really scream, just on the inside), but as far as her feet, the
deduction for "poor footwork" throughout the whole exercise is,
unfortunately, a mere 0.1 (not that they take it).

>Yeah, Brett and I noticed right off that Gogean has recycled Silivas's
>routine down to the dance (not there was any of that in Daniela's sets)

Are you sure we're talking about the same gymnast?  There was plenty of dance
in Silivas' routines, as I recall, and extremely well done, and expressively,
too.  '87 in particular ('88 & '89 were kind of fluff, and '85 was too cute,
but then, so was she), which is the one Gogean ripped off.  They're just not
the modern dance style you seem to go for.

-- Gimnasta


Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 14:38:48 BST
From: ***
Subject: More Worlds.

Ok as I promised here are some more observations from what I saw
of the worlds.

Not bad for Neil Thomas winning his second consecutive floor
medal, (hooray for Britain). At least it means he gets to appear
on a Question of Sport again, even though it was reported in the
English press as 'Thomas robbed of gold' marvellous isnt it
they ignore the sport for 51 weeks of the year and suddenly
we win something and it isn't well done Neil, its Thomas robbed
of Gold no wonder people think British people are whingers.

Everybody always quotes the consectutive Gold medal winners but
how many consectutive silver medal winners have their been probably
loads but it would be an interesting fact to know.

A number of gymnasts seemed to be having difficulty with their
they all seemed to veer dangerously off to the right which is
where the floor finishes and there is a nice drop, luckily they
all managed to save themselves before they got that far but
is that usual for them all to go the same direction.

There was an almighty crash when one of the GBR competitors
Powell I think his name was got entangled with his release on the
rings and plummeted to the ground which he hit head first I was
surprised he actually wasnt hurt more by the impact but he was fine
except he had concussion and a large lump about the size of
a tennis ball on his head. But he did get up and walked
away with a little bit of help and then went on to finish competing
certainly can't fault his dedication.

There was a nice speech by Nadia at the start of the Women's
all-around competition about the money she was giving to Romania,
which no doubt ABC forgot to include in their broadcast. There
was also about 15 minutes of Aboriginal tribal stuff which was
quite interesting certainly different.

I still think the scoring was pretty much up the spout
again there plenty of routines with more difficulty in them
which were being marked down and there were less difficult routines
being marked higher. But it wasnt as widespread as it had been
in qualifying, perhaps it evens itself eventually but it does
look pretty odd when one gymnast does basically nothing and gets
a high mark and then another gymnast does loads of really difficult
things and gets a low mark.



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 10:27:14 EDT
From: <***@MIT.EDU>
Subject: More Worlds.

Clive said:
>... but he was fine
>except he had concussion and a large lump about the size of
>a tennis ball on his head. But he did get up and walked
>away with a little bit of help and then went on to finish competing
>certainly can't fault his dedication.

Wait a minute!  This guy continued competing with a concussion!?!
That doesn't sound very bright, or very safe.  I'm surprised they
allowed that!



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 16:07:27 BST
From: ***
Subject: More Worlds.

>Wait a minute!  This guy continued competing with a concussion!?!
>That doesn't sound very bright, or very safe.  I'm surprised they
>allowed that!

Aha, now that was a freudian slip and a half on my part, first
off he didnt nose dive or anything downwards he belly flopped the
ground but his head definately hit the ground first. Now the various
coaches all helped him toddle off and he must have been checked over
by a doctor for breakages. If you can break an arm falling over
in the
bath you can sure as anything break an arm falling from that

Now I guess he returned later probably much later to do a vault,
was quite a decent one actually considering but the way it was shown
on the BBC showed him doing it instantaneously. Hence the reason why
I said he continued competing because thats all I know about the
incident at the moment, I missed it on Eurosport but I would guess
they didn't let him return till he felt ok and they were sure he
was ok and had been  checked out by a doctor. If anyones that
interested I can do a time check on it for you.

Even so he still had one humungous bump on his face which had
swelled to
such epic proportions that his right eye was barely open which cannot
be called really a good idea.



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 14:44:42 EDT
From: ***
Subject: More Worlds.

>There was an almighty crash when one of the GBR competitors
Powell I think his name was got entangled with his release on the
rings and plummeted to the ground which he hit head first I was
surprised he actually wasnt hurt more by the impact but he was fine
except he had concussion and a large lump about the size of
a tennis ball on his head. But he did get up and walked
away with a little bit of help and then went on to finish competing
certainly can't fault his dedication.

Actually it was Paul Bowler and the really weird thing is that he did it last
year too (fall of rings that is). I happened to be sitting next to  him the
day after it happened (in '93 that is) and after a while said "Would you be
offended if I asked you what happened"? His coach dissolved into giggles but
he just smiled and said "No...I really have no idea...I was fine one minute
and the next I was laying on my back." I wonder if there has ever been
consecutive world's rings ("you know rings those two little round thing you
never let go off...") falls before?  At least it wasn't Craig Heap...still me
fav name for a Brit guy who can barely walk from event to event without
falling down.



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 10:47:44 EDT
From: ***
Subject: NCAA's on TV?

Anyone know if and when(and what channel,etc) NCAA's will be televised?

-- Gimnasta


Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 22:17:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: <***>
Subject: NCAA Men's stuff

Some quotes from the parallel AP story on the men's championships:

Dennis Harrison, who scored 58.20 to win the AA on Friday, scored
58.45 in team finals on Saturday.  He then went on, on Saturday night,
to finish in the top six on *every* event, thus earning All-American
status in all seven categories (AA and six events).  I wonder when's
the last time someone did that?  That's just insane!

Harrison: "I just went out and tried to help lead."

Nebraska coach Francis Allen: "I didn't think they could do better
than they did in the Big Eight (meet), but they did. The thing I like
is the team hit all of its routines."

Stanford coach Sadao Hamada: "Nebraska did a good job. I was very
impressed. Every time I looked up, Nebraska was hitting a routine."

Chris Lamorte, U-New Mexico, who successfully defended his rings
title: "I felt a lot more pressure this time. My freshman year I
didn't feel everyone was after me. I felt like I was after everybody.
Now, I have everyone trying to beat me. Plus, I had my mom here this
time. She wasn't here last time and I wanted to do well for her."

Mark Booth, Stanford, who won floor: "Considering that I was out with
a torn achilles tendon last year and I wasn't expected to compete at
all this year, it was a bit of sweet revenge."


Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 22:09:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: <***>
Subject: NCAA Women's quotes

Hey friends,

Here are some tidbits about the NCAA Women's Championships that I
thought were worth quoting from a recent AP story:

Hope Spivey-Sheeley's 10.0 on floor exercise in event finals was the
27th ten of her career.  She now "awaits a new, larger wedding ring as
the reward promised by her husband for a victorious collegiate
gymnastics finale," said the AP article.

Spivey, with undoubtably the worst gymnastics quote I've ever seen:
"My husband (Dale) and I had a bet because I have always been selfish
and wanted a bigger diamond wedding ring. He's going to be very poor."

The Champs drew 8,382 attendance for Event Finals, and 31,480 for the
three-day total (four sessions).  Last year's attendance of 17,329 was
the old (and demolished) record.

Soph. Jenny Hansen of Kentucky, who has won the AA twice and also won
two event titles this year, is just one title short of the cumulative
record of five NCAA titles, held by Missy Marlowe.

Your typically insightful commentary found in newspapers: "Hansen's
beam routine -- highlighted by triple backflips and a twisting reverse
dismount -- earned a 9.975 score from the judges."

[Wow, triple backs on the beam?! No wonder NCAA scores are so high.  I
wonder what a "twisting reverse" is...]



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 00:21:58 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: NCAA women's quotes

Rachele writes:

  Spivey, with undoubtably the worst gymnastics quote I've ever seen:
  "My husband (Dale) and I had a bet because I have always been selfish
  and wanted a bigger diamond wedding ring. He's going to be very poor."

You can blame that one on Lori Strong.  Not that she said it, but Lori
made Hope tell all to the press (or *she* was going to.)  She went on
to say that wasn't the real reason.  Then I believe she mentioned her
plans for next year. Then she got emotional again.

Speaking of press, I forgot to post any of the press conference stuff.
Nobody said anything that memorable, actually, but I'll dig anything
interesting up tomorrow.



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 14:30:45 EDT
From: <***@BBN.COM>
Subject: NCAA Women's quotes

Rachele quotes an AP story:

>Your typically insightful commentary found in newspapers: "Hansen's
>beam routine -- highlighted by triple backflips and a twisting reverse
>dismount -- earned a 9.975 score from the judges."

Not to excuse their sloppiness, but I would guess that they
meant three backflips in a row (like the ever popular
"layout, layout, step out"), and thought that "triple back
flips" would convey that.  (Feh.)  I'd also guess that "twisting
reverse" was meant to tell the reader that she did some amount of
back flipping with some amount of twisting in her dismount.
(That really narrows the possibilities, doesn't it? :-)
Of course, trying to translate sloppy journalism into communicative
prose is actually a waste of time....

Can someone like George tell us if Hansen's beam set had
these things it it?  (Just curious.)



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 12:55:25 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: NCAA Women's quotes

I don't have my notes with me right now, but I think I took notes of
Jenny Hansen's beam and floor routines.  I can post them when I go
home tonight.



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 11:49:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: <***>
Subject: NCAA women - event finals - complete scores

On Sun, 24 Apr 1994, George Atkins wrote:

>  Floor
>    1. Hope Spivey-Sheeley, Georgia, 10.0.
>    2. Kim Kelly, Alabama, 9.975.
>    3. Tina Brinkman, Arizona St., 9.95.
>    4. Becky Erwin, Auburn, 9.925.
>    5. Jenny Hansen, Kentucky, 9.9.
>    tie Suzanne Metz, Utah, 9.9.
>    tie Aimee Trepanier, Utah, 9.9.
>    tie Megan Caudle, Utah, 9.9.

That's absolutely crazy!!  They really do need to do something about the
scoring in NCAA Women's gymnastics.  The top *8* places are 9.9 or above,
while at the World Championships, there are 3 scores of 9.9 or above in 4
days of competition!  Plus, the last 10 in FIG competition was
Milosovici's 10 on floor in the '92 Olympics.  Last year, weren't there
like 6 10's at NCAA's?

This is getting really out of hand.



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 17:39:31 BST
From: ***
Subject: New member introduction

Hi there. This is the first time I'm sending anything to this forum so I hope
that I'm doing this correctly! Here's a bit of info about myself:

Name : Sherwin
Age : 23
Sex : Male
Nationality : British (Hong Kong)
Lives : Uxbridge, Middlesex, England
Occupation : Student (studying at Imperial College, University of London,
           for a PhD degree in Electrical Engineering)

Gymnastics Interests :

Started following gym after seeing Tatiana Gutsu did an amazing full-twist
tuck-back somersault on beam in 1991. Since then I have been to Worlds 1993,
and Birmingham Classics 1993, following international womens gymnastics mainly.
Last year I started writing to penpals (I have about 10) all over the world,
and that was when I started exchanging photos and videos of past meets and
learned more about the sport. I now have over 30 tapes (of 4 hours each) of
past meets ( womens only on VHS-PAL format) dating from 1970s up to date
(over 11 hours of Worlds 1994 coverage). My favourites include the 'Soviets',
Romanians and the British (!). I don't do gym myself though.

Others :
      I don't know how many subscribers are from this part of the world, but I
have friends who have been to the GBR v ROM meet earlier in April '94 and can
relate her experience of that meet into this group. (Anybody interested in it?)
It's quite a small meet so I don't know if you have heard of it. I also have a
friend who went to Worlds 94 in Brisbane so I can relate her experience as well.

      My favourite gymnasts at the moment (liable to change every day!) include
Karin Szymko (GBR), Elodie Lussac (FRA), Dina Kochetkova (RUS),
Annika Reeder (GBR), Yelena Piskoun (BLR), Gina Gogean (ROM),
Oksana Fabrichnova (RUS), Andrea Cacovean (ROM), Claudia Rusan (ROM),
Liliya Podkopayeva (UKR), Olga Yurkina (BLR), Roza Galieva (UZB),
Ekaterina Vandysheva (RUS), Joanna Hughes (AUS), Irina Golub (RUS),
Dominique Moceanu (USA), Ruth Moniz (AUS), Svetlana Khorkina (RUS), etc.

I can go on forever. My favourite male gymnast is Neil Thomas (well done Neil
getting another silver on FX!). I do watch mens gymnastics but do not record
them. I also like rhythmic gymnastics (Larissa Lukianenko (BLR) especially)
and Sports Acros. I subscribe to a few international gymnastics magazines (am I
allowed to mention their names ?) to keep me up-to-date somehow.
I like a lot of other sports too : British soccer, figure skating, cricket,
F-1 motor racing, etc.

I guess I should stop here and am looking forward to participate in this forum!
Please tell me newbie if I've done something wrong!

Sherwin Ho


Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 10:03:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***
Subject: Random comments

      I am speaking as probably the only gymn member who hasn't seen an ounce
of coverage or read a word in the press about anything that went on over the
weekend. However, I can add a few things...
      1) Dennis and someone else (I forget who) are correct - Dawes' music is
Malaguena, and that was never used in the original opera version of Carmen. I
have my mom looking up the composer. However, it is used in many fantasies on
the Carmen themes, so many of us (esp. those who play violin!) always think
it's a part of the opera.
      2) Jenny Heim was a member of Karolyi's young elite "hope" group.
Karolyi suggested diving in a meeting with her & her mom after doctors told her
she could suffer permanent neurological damage from injuries and stresses on
her neck if she continued in gymn. They were both very complimentary of Karolyi.
I ssaw a profile of her several years ago on an ESPN young athletes show whose
title I cannot remember at the moment. I thought it was a bit weird to take up
platform diving in order to AVOID possible recurring neurological damage.
Springboard, yes, but PLATFORM!?!?!
      3) My jaw is still sore from it hitting the keyboard when gimnasta
spoke of the .2 bonus in Shannon's front tumbling.
      4) Huilan Mo sounds insane
      5) Huilan Mo sounds like she'd be a perfect fit at Cypress
      6) Perhaps Strong was going to announce it in the press conference
anyway, but a big BLAH to Hope for being stupidly materialistic.
      7) Way to get German citizenship BELENKY!!!! WHOOOO!!!! He was always
one of my favorites.
      8) STILL no one, after over 130 mail messages, has mentioned what vault
Dom was doing. Yo, people, I'm waiting for my mom to send me the tape which
will take until about July, so just tell me directly or whatever, what vault
she's doing.
      9) Did the coaches replace Amanda with Larissa in AA finals or what?
      10) The judges don't get paid? Just travel? WHAT???!!!
      11) i want to be in Clive'ss shoes and totallly oversaturated in
coverage. If they can have a cartoon network, why can't they just satellite
feed Eurosport directly?
      12) Ha ha to Dom & Kelli for thinking she could get a medal for a bar
routine with only a Shopshnikova in it. Duh....
      I like Dom a lot, and her beam a lot too, but what the heck were they
      More later...           Cara


Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 14:44:48 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Random comments

>STILL no one, after over 130 mail messages, has mentioned what vault Dom was
doing. Yo, people, I'm waiting for my mom to send me the tape which will take
until about July, so just tell me directly or whatever, what vault she's

Well now you'll get a zillion messages like this but it was a Tychenko 1 and
1/2 the same vault she fell on last year...



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 13:05:55 +1000
From: <***>
Subject: Rings

>Chechi is God (on rings anyway!).

>-- Gimnasta

Just for your information - if you would like to see the god of gods - on
rings - watch for the Men's NCAA and Chris LaMorte from New Mexico (9.9).
Saturday night they scored the men on the International level (base score
9.0) and LaMorte would have out-scored and out-wowed Chechi (and I love
Chechi)  3 inverts all flat - and that is only a sample. 



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 12:57:29 +1000
From: <***>
Subject: UCLA Men's Repreive

>The UCLA men's program was granted a stay of execution when they had their
>day in court. A judge ruled that the program could NOT be terminated. Several
>stipulations, such as UCLA can schedule no meets at the present time,
>accompany the decision and a further court date of May 16th (day after my
>b-day by the by)  is set. All in all it looks like Yefim Furman will have a
>job next year after all!

At NCAA (Men's) I had a chance to speak with Peter Vidmar - an interesting
conversation to say the least.  I don't know how many of you know this, but
he was inducted into the UCLA hall of fame and was asked to be the fund
raising rep for UCLA this year. 

He had the opportunity to speak to the *fat cats* and made a great speech -
(not verbatim ... I find it highly ironic that you chose me to be in the
hall of fame the same year that you decided to cut Men's gymnatics - the
program that made me worthy of being in the hall of fame...

I must say the meet was almost solid talk of Men's gymnastics having their
championships dropped.  In the next few weeks I will be putting letters on
the system.  Anyone willing to download them, and fill in the blanks will
be helping Men's gymnastics - greatly.  We need to have this coming from
all areas - International attention will help NCAA realize that this
program must survive if we are to continue to be represented on the
international scene, and nationally - women followers as well as men are

I have so much more information from this weekend I can share - Right now I
want to post this, more to follow on this CRISIS!



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 09:05:47 BST
From: ***
Subject: Women's AA comments

Susan said:
>Milos (was her beam generous to make up for FX?).

If you thought her beam was generous in the AA competition then
you should have seen what she did for qualifying. The words
not very impressive readily spring to mind.

Clive. (absolutely knackered now after watching almost 25hrs
of coverage)


Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 11:35:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: <***>
Subject: Women's AA comments

On Sun, 24 Apr 1994, Lori wrote (part):

> gimnasta writes:
> > {comments on Shannon's floor routine}
> >
> > Gina Gogean's middle pass is ridiculous, and did anyone notice her routine
> > (at least the first half) is a Silivas ripoff?  Down to the steps on her
> > heels in the corner.  At least it's an improvement over her last routine.
> I thought it looked familiar.  I thought that both she and Milosovici
> looked like that had no desire to be there.  There was absolutely no
> expression in their routines.

Yeah, plus their music was awful!!  As my father said (during the last
part of Milosovici's routine),"It sounds like Led Zepplin."  Milosovici's
old music wasn't much better, but I kind of liked Gogean's old music.

While we're on this subject...Miller is in *dire* need of some new music!
So is Borden, if she still has that celestial-sounding music.



Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 09:09:13 BST
From: ***
Subject: Worlds Comments

>Give me pay-per-view!  I guess we should be happy that ABC
televised the
>Worlds promptly, but showing a total of 17 routines from 7
gymnasts ?!?
>Will today's coverage of the women's EF and men's AA be as
sketchy?  I'm
>betting yes.

Did I ever mention the fact Eurosport is free. I thought that would
probably cheer alot of you up.



End of gymn Digest