gymn Digest Wed, 23 Mar 94 Volume 2 : Issue 90

Today's Topics:
'94 Russian Champs.
chinese greats in mei guo
Georgia Coaches' Salary
Georgia Coaches' Salary (fwd)
I'm back!
Introduction - Patrick Tower
RE:Country Hopping
Re: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics (2 msgs)
reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics (8 msgs)
reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics (fwd) (2 msgs)
Worlds

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 00:54:00 BST
From: ***@genie.geis.com
Subject: '94 Russian Champs.

Here are the top 6 finishers in the '94 Russian Champs. held in Voronezh, as
reported by Radio Moscow:

Men
1. Evgeny Shabaev
2. Sergei Kharkov
3. Dmitri Vassilenko
4. Alexei Nemov
5. Dmitri Troush
6. Kolesnikov

Women
1. Dina Kochetkova
2. Svetlana Khorkina
3. Oksana Fabrichnova
4. Boisina
5. Natalia Ivanova
6. Anna Shurokina

Sorry, no scores or EF results were available.

Debbie


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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 09:44:10 PST
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: chinese greats in mei guo


>Is Li Ning in the U.S?
> I think he owns a gym somewhere out west sponsered by Jianlibao soft
> drink, but this may be false. How about his sports clothing business
> in China? Anyone have a "where is he now" update on the great one?

>How about Tong Fei?
> He left Stanford, but did he go to Canada, or to the Rockies? I've
> heard both.

>U.Mass and Iowa had (have?) assistant coaches from China's national team.
>There must be many more that I don't know of. With former Soviet
>gymnasts flooding into the gymnastics marketplace of coaching, has anyone
>other than Bruno Klaus and a few schools taken advantage of the world
>politics' effect on our sport?

Reply:

Li Ning did in fact open a gym with the help of Jianlibao. It is called Li
Ning's International Gymnastics Academy. It's a beautiful facility. I should
know.
I am Li-Ning's U.S. partner and I am the administrator of his gym here. He
himself is not in the U.S. (has obligations with Jianlibao still, plus his
own company is going like gangbusters) but his wife, Yong Yan Chen (captain
of 1984 Chinese Women's Gymnastic team and 1982 World Championship gold
medalist) is head coach here at Li-Nings. They are buying a house here, so it
looks like he may actually start spending 2-3 months a year in the states.
We're located in Chatsworth, near Los Angeles.

Tong Fei left Stanford and followed his rainbow, which actually landed him
back in China. He too, is building a moderately successful business
enterprise. Where Li Ning is Mr Clean, Tong Fei likes to cultivate more of a
"bad boy" image, and he's great at it!

A bunch of other Chinese greats are here or were here. Ma Yanhong (4 golds in
84) was teaching at SCATS for a while, but has just returned to China with
her new fiancee. Li Yuejiu and Wu Jiani (they got married, if you didn't
know) are coaching in Las Vegas, and have a beautiful little 5 year old girl.

As for coaches, Yang Ming Ming is coaching in New York, but is planning on
coming out here and working with us starting in the fall.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 18:35:04 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Georgia Coaches' Salary

Gimnasta:
Okay, okay. Gimnasta got me on this one. It actually wasn't a lawsuit
because it hadn't been filed yet. It was written (all 60 pages), and they
were going to file it Monday if a settlement wasn't reached.
Accuracy, smacuracy.
--- Ron

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 19:30:30 -0600 (CST)
From: ***@owlnet.rice.edu
Subject: Georgia Coaches' Salary (fwd)

re Gimnasta's question about Doug McAvin, who was included in the
potential lawsuit as not being paid accordingly. I think the issue is
more specific to the gender of the sport as opposed to the gender of
the coach. Women's coaches are typically paid less than men's.
Usually (eg, with basketball), this is justified/gotten away with
(depending on your perspective) because the men's teams bring in
higher revenue. However, with the crowd that Georgia gets, this
argument doesn't float the boat, so to speak.

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 18:59:08 PST
From: ***@holonet.net
Subject: I'm back!

Hello everyone!

My account at the University of Wisconsin died out when my limited-term
employment there ended, but I'm back! I'm looking forward to discussing
gymnastics with you.

--Tim

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Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 17:17:08 -0800 (PST)
From: ***@leland.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Introduction - Patrick Tower

Greeting, fellow gymnastics fans!

I have a habit of getting verbose, but I will try to keep this as
short as possible.

E-Mail : ***@leland.stanford.edu
Real Name : Patrick (not Pat) :)
Residence : Stanford, CA (tho I still call Wisconsin home)

Gymnastics interests:
I am first and foremost a fan of women's college gymnastics.
I am starting to appreciate the men's sport as I watch it more.
I enjoy open gymnastics, but for the most part consider it
girl's gymnastics. I realize that there are exceptions to this
(particularly Svetlana Boguinskaya (sp?)), but especially
since I work closely with the Stanford program, I have come
to enjoy the more mature, if less acrobatic college sport.

Where I come from:
My introduction to the sport came from friends on my high school
team (we had only a girl's team, though a boy did try out once),
and watching the Olympics on TV. When I came to Stanford, I became
the Stanford Daily reporter for the team and am now the official
team photographer and unofficial Sports Information Director.
(Officially, I'm the "publicity assistant").

What I know:
I know much more about women's/girl's than men's. I know most of
the major players on the world scene and as many collegians as I
can learn about through Gymnastics Insider (just started subscribing)
and the meets I attend. I know lots of moves by name, but I doubt if
that encompasses "most" of them.

My motivation for joining the mailing list:
To pass on info and results from collegiate meets and to get as many
updates (results, roster changes, etc.) as I can (again mostly on
the college scene), as well as generally discuss my favorite
spectator sport.

I hope I can contribute.
-Patrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 21:14:42 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: RE:Country Hopping

Clive writes, in part:

"I originally thought of the question because of whats been happening with
Americas favourite ice skater Tonya Harding ... Judging by whats been
happening in this particular case its not within the realms of make believe
that if she really really wanted to she could leave America, go someplace
else join the new skating federation and compete again.

... I thought if a similar case arose in the gymnastics world which it might
one day (hopefully not though!!!!) would it be possible at all to get
away with it.

Certainly from what people have been saying so far it appears that if
you wanted to do it you could do it and nobody could stop you."

The circumstances under which Tonya resigned -- as part of a plea bargain --
make all the difference. Federations have discretion to decide who may be a
member and I think would be well within their rights to deny membership to a
person convicted of a crime, which Tonya has been. So I think they could
easily stop that kind of person, while there would be no interest in stopping
a person without this background.

Further, for a gymnast -- a female one at least -- the wait to become a
citizen of the other country plus the wait the FIG imposes would, in most
cases, be a barrier in effect if not in theory.

Finally, it's just not that simple to pack up and move to another country
(well, except maybe to Canada) , especially for female gymnasts who are so
young.

-- Gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 13:24:37 PST
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Re: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics

I would certainly hope that the USGF/USA Gymnastics would show more
intestinal fortitude when faced with a "Hardingate" than the USFSA showed.
Her $20 million lawsuit prior to the Winter Olympics was pure bluff, and the
USFSA simply caved in and allowed her to skate. I believe without question
that her presence at the Olympics was a black eye on U.S. figure skating,
especially now that she is a confessed felon.

The USGF, as the USFSA, is obliged to protect the sport and the standing of
the US in the sport FIRST, with consideration given to the rights of athletes
second. That is the way it works in any organized sport. If the USGF did any
less, I for one would be screaming for heads to roll at the top. But in all
honesty, I feel our administration is better than that.

David

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Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 15:43:18 PST
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Re: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics

albaijes:

Yeah, I suppose you're right--the associations do have an obligation to their
members and the sport to protect themselves from legal action.

But it is really frustrating to think that now even our atheletes can violate
the roles if accompanied by an ambulance-chaser. Sportsmanship counts for
doo-doo, skill for less. The only thing of value in modern sports is a little
greed and a lawyer.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 12:36:00 EST
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics

A couple of points regarding Tonya Harding, with applications
to gymnastics (if there's ever a Hardinggate in gymnastics):

Because figure skating is a judged sport, it almost doesn't matter
if Harding managed to regain membership in the USFSA at some later
date. The judges would grade her harshly, and that would be
enough to keep her from doing well unless she performed flawlessly.
(I don't mean that they would judge her "unfairly"; I mean that
they would take the maximum allowable deduction for every
mistake. This might be unfair in that I don't think that
they do that for every other competitor, but it wouldn't
be something that she could point to as a grounds for complaint.
This wouldn't require any conspiracy among the judges, either;
they could each do it independently.) The application to
gymnastics is obvious.

The other point has already been mentioned: Even if she
does manage to get reinstated, it probably won't be for a
few years, by which time she probably won't be competitive
anymore (besides being in her late twenties, she would also
have the disadvantage of lack of practice--a parolee is supposed
to be either gainfully employed or a student, and her parole
officer probably wouldn't interpret that to allow her to
do the necessary fulltime unpaid practicing, even if she had the
monetary means to do so). As gimnasta pointed out, several
years' down time would put the kibosh on most gymnastic careers,
particularly a woman's.

There've been a lot of rumors about what the USFSA will do
to Harding when they meet in June. I expect that they
will exercise their prerogative to ban her for life from
the USFSA (where "life" effectively needs only to be a few years).
I think it would be in the best interests of the USFSA (and skating)
to forget about stripping her of her US 1994 medal (she still hasn't
admitted to being involved until *after* the competition, and
would, I think, have grounds to sue). And the talk of removing
her from the 1994 Olympic team is both Orwellian and nonsensical;
does the USFSA really think anyone's going to forget all this happened?

>>Kathy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 15:29:53 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics

Some more notes the subject:

First,a plea bargain means the defendant admits to and is convicted of a
crime. Conviction of a crime is well more than any organization needs to
deny membership to a person (this is on the subject of whether she could be
stopped from joining another federation, since she "resigned" from, rather
was kicked out of, the USFSA).

Second, a question. Kathy writes:
>Even if she
does manage to get reinstated, it probably won't be for a
>few years, by which time she probably won't be competitive
anymore (besides being in her late twenties, she would also
>have the disadvantage of lack of practice--a parolee is supposed
to be either gainfully employed or a student, and her parole
>officer probably wouldn't interpret that to allow her to
do the necessary fulltime unpaid practicing, even if she had the
>monetary means to do so).

Tonya is actually on probation, not parole, and I wonder if the rules about
being a student or being employed are the same or different so that she'd be
able to practice. Since she hasn't been banned from any professional skating
(yet), she could have a reason to practice.

On the judging:
>(I don't mean that they would judge her "unfairly"; I mean that
they would take the maximum allowable deduction for every
>mistake. This might be unfair in that I don't think that
they do that for every other competitor, but it wouldn't
>be something that she could point to as a grounds for complaint.

Couldn't it be grounds for complaint? I understand T&D were penalized
correctly (were they?) but other ice dance couples who committed the same
violations were not, and that seems to me to be grounds for complaint (if
proven, not always an easy task in these sports).

-- Gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 17:23:51 EST
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics

Sorry that I misspoke myself on "parole" vs "probation," but
I believe the same criteria apply (being employed or a student).
This doesn't keep her from skating; it just means she can't
skate to the exclusion of getting a job. I have no idea whether
the court would view self-employment as meeting the job criterion
(e.g., selling her story to more infotainment people, or
taking up coaching); she *is* going to do the skating scenes
for the movie of her that's being planned, which is why she
needed to be able to travel to California as part of the deal.
If she managed to find employment with an ice show
(assuming the court would allow her to travel outside
the Washington-Oregon-California region to which she's now
restricted), that would certainly be a fulltime job skating.

As for the complaints re: judging. It's my understanding
that your country's organization is supposed to complain
for you, with the matter to be taken up at the next meeting
of the ISU (the international group of national organizations
like the USFSA). In fact, there are such complaints pending
for the next meeting of the ISU. However, the ISU only
meets once every two years, and I somehow doubt that the
USFSA would want to go to bat for Harding. (The fact that
Harding has a history of complaining [rightly or wrongly] about
judges' not scoring her fairly would only make it harder
for her to make such a complaint stick.)

Obligatory gymnastics reference: I, too, was unimpressed
with the USFSA's handling of the whole thing. I would hope
that the USGF (sorry, USAG) or any other sporting association
would (1) decide what to do in a timely way and (2) stick
to their decision, letting the lawsuits fall where they may.
The USFSA did neither.

>>Kathy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 15:47:02 PST
From: ***@cisco.com
Subject: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics

First,a plea bargain means the defendant admits to and is convicted of
a crime. Conviction of a crime is well more than any organization
needs to deny membership to a person (this is on the subject of
whether she could be stopped from joining another federation, since
she "resigned" from, rather was kicked out of, the USFSA).

Another example demonstrating that skating is a sport for rich girls. Not
having won the gold, Harding has no money to defend herself adequately in
what would likely prove a long and highly-publicized trial (reasonable
trial defenses seem to start at $50,000.)

I don't care whether she covered up for her ex-husband (if they were still
married, there are even rules to prevent her from having to testify against
him.) That's a non-issue.

I don't know whether she was behind the attack herself. In any case, the
attack we not effective in preventing Kerrigan from competing, and caused
no permanant damage to the victim.

Regardless, I suspect Harding's life is pretty much ruined now.

That seems a little harsh for what amounts to little more than a brawl.
Hockey, football, socker, and even basketball players do more damage to
each other in the middle of a game, and their punishments aren't so severe.

Chops

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 19:24:52 EST
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics

Leaving aside the issue of what the USFSA should have done
(I'm actually more disappointed by the fact that they couldn't
seem to make a decision and stick to it than I think I would
have been by any decision they did make), the plea-bargain
certainly points up an unpleasant part of the US legal system.
Whether Harding was in fact involved beforehand in the
conspiracy to assault Kerrigan or not, taking the plea-bargain
might be the best way of cutting her losses. As Chops pointed
out, mounting a trial defense would be expensive, and, according
to what I read in the NY Times, would have meant spending another
8-10 months dealing with the case. From the prosecutor's point
of view, he probably has much more important cases to try
(murderers, rapists, armed robbers, industrial polluters, etc.),
and, I suspect, he didn't have as good a case as he's claiming
(if he had a "smoking gun," he wouldn't have taken a plea
bargain right before the grand jury's deadline of yesterday
[Monday]). By offering Harding a plea bargain before the
Worlds, he could add to her punishment by preventing her
from competing there, perhaps a favor for the USFSA, and
get an easy conviction on something she'd already pretty much
admitted anyway to in her press conference in January.
(There's a difference between not being forthcoming and
hindering prosecution, but probably not enough in this case
to prevent her conviction on a trial of conspiracy to commit
hindering prosecution.) And Harding can get on with her life.

As I posted before, I hope other sports groups would be
more decisive and courageous about their actions, although
I wouldn't bet on it. And if other groups have a
"sportsmanship" agreement for athletes to sign, now is
the time for them to meet and decide just what
"sportsmanship" is. Otherwise, there are more lawsuits
on the horizon.

Because I've always liked Tonya Harding as a skater, I'm
sorry her career is over, especially this way, if
she is in fact only guilty of what she's admitted to in court.
On the other hand, if she did participate in the plot
beforehand, I don't think the fact that it didn't do the
damage planned should temper the criminal punishment
for her (or anyone else involved). That would be a distinction
for a civil case for Kerrigan's damages to consider.
As it is, we'll likely never know for sure when she became involved.

As for skating being a rich person's sport, isn't the same true
of gymnastics, although perhaps not to the same degree
(no $12,000 costumes for competition :-))? Expert coaching
doesn't come cheap. If professional gymnastics
catches on so that there's real money in it, can we expect
the same kind of pressures that led to the attack on Kerrigan?

>>Kathy
Kathy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 18:20:35 PST
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics

Chops wrote:

>Another example demonstrating that skating is a sport for rich girls. Not
>having won the gold, Harding has no money to defend herself adequately in
>what would likely prove a long and highly-publicized trial (reasonable
>trial defenses seem to start at $50,000.)

1. Harding is a poor girl and made it to the Olympics without having spent
$50,000 in legal expenses. Kerrigan went to the Olympics twice, all without
being rich. Both families made sacrifices to give the girls their best shots.


2.As to legal expenses, Harding would not have incurred them if she had
chosen to play fair instead of acting like a mob boss ordering a hit. BTW,
since the proceedings against Harding are legal, she is entitled to a
court-appointed attorney. In addition, there are probably half a dozen good
criminal attorneys who would handle the case pro bono just for the exposure.

>I don't know whether she was behind the attack herself.

She has admitted at least complacency, which is as good as having ordered it
as far as the law is concerned.

>In any case, the attack we not effective in preventing Kerrigan from
competing, and >caused no permanant damage to the victim.

This argument is specious, to say the least. That saying that we should let
the criminals off just because they had bad aim. There was an intent to
commit serious bodily harm. (That's assault.) They hit her. (That's battery.)
Just because they didn't damage her leg seriously enough to prevent her from
competing (mayhem) doesn't mean we should let the criminals off. As far as
permanent damage, I would defer to Nancy's doctors. I suggest that there was
permanent damage (both mentally and physically) and that only guts and
therapy put Kerrigan on the ice in Lillehammer.

>That seems a little harsh for what amounts to little more than a brawl.
>Hockey, football, socker (sic), and even basketball players do more damage
to
>each other in the middle of a game, and their punishments aren't so severe.

Be serious. We are not debating the ethics of violence in sports. Hockey,
football, soccer, and basketball are all contact sports, and penalties
levied for "damage" on the field of play are appropriate for the damage done
and the level of the infraction. But if Charles Barkley whacked Shaqille
O'Neal on the leg with a weapon of some form, either on court or off, I
suspect Mr. Barkley would be in the klink.

As far as the legal system is concerned, I think Tonya got off easy because
she is young, white, and female.

David

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 21:47:17 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics

Chops says

>In any case, the
attack we not effective in preventing Kerrigan from competing, and caused
no permanant damage to the victim.

That's not the point! This was a pre-mediatated attack with the intent to
remove someone from a competition. The USOC, the USFSA, and the Courts must
come down hard to discourage this from happening again, in figs, gym, or any
other sport. The USOC and USFSA dropped the ball, so obviously it was up to
the courts. In terms of Harding's culpability, if she hadn't copped a plea,
she would have been indicted.

Also, conduct such as Chops described should not be allowed in any sport,
even hockey.

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 19:23:07 PST
From: ***@cisco.com
Subject: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics

We'll probably never know whether Harding is actually guilty of all this.
The only way to be certain would be if she admitted being guilty of
everything. At this point, even if she had not copped the plea and went to
trial and was found innocent, there would be a large set of people who would
believe she just got off because she was "young, female, and white."

I want to get off this specific topic.

The whole "sportsman-like conduct" has the potential to turn into a real
series of witch-hunts. Athletes should be noble and pure and godlike.
Right. Already athletes put up with drug testing at a level considered
unconstitutional by the state of California, and obnoxious by anyone who has
to undergo them. I can't wait till they start kicking people off collegiate
teams for speeding, public drunkenness and unlawful fornication! ("but your
honor, that IS sportsman-like conduct.") After that, they can start hanging
around lisening for comments like "Gee, UPenn might have a chance at the
orange bowl if the quarterbacks from all the other teams happen to break
their legs. (wink, wink.)"

An athlete ought to be entitled to be as obnoxious at they want, and even
break the law (as long as no one gets hurt) as part of their private life.
It might make them a jerk, but it shouldn't prevent them from being an
athlete.

Chops

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 16:17:04 PST
From: ***@sol.metaware.com
Subject: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics (fwd)

I didn't want to get into this, but...

>> First,a plea bargain means the defendant admits to and is convicted of
>> a crime. Conviction of a crime is well more than any organization
>> needs to deny membership to a person (this is on the subject of
>> whether she could be stopped from joining another federation, since
>> she "resigned" from, rather was kicked out of, the USFSA).
>
> Another example demonstrating that skating is a sport for rich girls. Not
> having won the gold, Harding has no money to defend herself adequately in
> what would likely prove a long and highly-publicized trial (reasonable
> trial defenses seem to start at $50,000.)

Well, considering she's getting something like $1 million from Hard Copy,
I don't think money was really the problem.....

--Robin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 21:15:56 EST
From: ***@sunland.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: reinstatement, Harding, and gymnastics (fwd)

Robin,

Accoring to Time magazine Tonya 'reportly' signed a deal with Inside Edition
for $300,000. I have not heard of a $1 million dollar deal with Hard Copy.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 19:29:27 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Worlds

With Worlds coming up in a couple of weeks, a bit of a poll for all gymn
members. Figuring that someone else will probably set up a "predict the
winner" poll, here's a little something different:

1. Who do YOU WANT to win AA, events, etc. and Why?
NOT who do you think will win!

2. Who do you think will outperform expectations? By this I mean anyone -
not just a medalist - performing better than anyone thought they could.

3. Who do you think will "underperform" (based on 'general' expectations)?

4. Who do you think might introduce a new move?

If anyone else can think up more questions, please feel free to add them.

Mara

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End of gymn Digest
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