gymn Digest                 Fri, 21 Jan 94       Volume 2 : Issue  62

Today's Topics:
                  1994 US Winter Cup Challenge (PR)
                        clarification (2 msgs)
                           different vaults
                            Front tumbling
                   Front tumbling analysis (3 msgs)
                   Full turn(s) on Beam ?? (2 msgs)
                   Q: front somersaulting (2 msgs)
                            Several posts
                       Trivia Set #8, questions
                            Valting finals
                             Vault finals

This is a digest of the mailing list. 


Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 19:44:23 -0600 (CST)
From: <***>
Subject: 1994 US Winter Cup Challenge (PR)

[Btw, I am using "PR" to indicate "Press Release" from now on...]


More that 60 junior and senior male gymnasts will compete compulsory
and optional routines at the 1994 U.S. Winter Cup Challenge, a re-
ranking event for the men's national team. In addition, this event
serves as the men's qualifying event for the 1994 Individual/
All-Around World Championships and the 1994 Goodwill Games.  The event
takes place February 4-5, at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in
Colorado Springs, Colo.

Expected to lead the competition is three-time USA National Champion
and three-time NCAA National Champion as well as 1992 Olympian John
Roethlisberger (University of Minnesota).

Other 1992 Olympians expected to compete include UCLA's Scott Keswick,
UCLA's Chris Waller and Stanford's Jair Lynch. UCLA's Chainey Umphrey,
Temple's Bill Roth and Gold Cup's Mihai Bagiu (Albuquerque , N.M.)
also should be top contenders in the competition.


Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 18:33:21 -0600 (CST)
From: <***>
Subject: clarification

Just wanted to make clear, re the question I asked about forward
flipping and landing.  I know that forward landing is more difficult
than backward landing largely because you can't spot the ground in a
forward landing.  My question is really more: is the forward landing
so much more difficult that it more than outweighs the easier

Skill       Flips Twist Fwd landing?      Value

tucked full-in      2     1     no        D

double Arabian      2     1/2   yes         E

Yur.-full twist   1 & 1/2   1       no             9.8

Yur.-1/2    1 & 1/2   1/2     yes         10.0

Maybe this question is too picky and looking for some reason that's
not really there; still, I'm just curious.



Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 1:05:33 PST
From: <***>
Subject: clarification

    My question is really more: is the forward landing so much more
    difficult that it more than outweighs the easier twisting?

    tucked full-in        2     1     no        D

    double Arabian        2     1/2   yes         E

Well, it is also somewhat harder to rotate in the forward direction,
and much harder to twist after taking off in a forward direction.
(Note however, that a double arabian does not involve twisting in a
forward direction.)  But let's talk more about that landing...

    I know that forward landing is more difficult than backward landing
    largely because you can't spot the ground in a forward landing.

Not being able to spot the ground is only PART of the problem.  The
rest is that the landing is much more exacting.  When landing
backward, you can correct for a multitude of sins by bending forward
over your bent knees to a greater or lesser extent, correcting your
center of gravity and allowing you to "stick" a landing on an
otherwise pretty marginal exectution of the trick.

Since you can't bend over backwards, or bend your knees backwards (and
it isn't a good idea to try!), landing frontwards is more difficult.

On a back landing, you might be able to under-rotate the flip as much
as 45 degrees and still stick it.  On a front landing, you might be
able to pull out of something that was underrotated by 5 degrees, if
you are lucky...

Of course, it's possible that a double arabian is just a less popular
trick than a full in, and is not accurately rated as to difficulty.
If so, the next international competition should see a lot of them,
and eventually the code of points will change.  But I doubt this...



Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 12:28:39 -0500
From: ***
Subject: different vaults

Sorry I don't have the direct quote but...

Rachele was talking about Brandy Johnson competing different vaults in
the 1989 event finals and hinted that she thought it was the first
year different vaults were required.

I remember back in 1987, the vault finalists all competed different
valuts.  Maybe 1989 was the first year the the two vaults not only had
to be different but had to be from different families.  Anyone know
for sure?



Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 19:04:54 -0500 (EST)
From: <***>
Subject: Front tumbling

No one has addressed the point that on floor it is a heck of a lot
easier to get momentum for back tumbling from roundoffs and back
handsprings.  Very few people even do front flip flops let alone do
them well enough to develope the speed for front tumbling.  Double
fronts are rare because they are a tough move. Arabian double front is
easier. Here is a front pass for you:

Layout front, punch layout front, punch layout front full!
Bill Roth did this at the West Point Open! He also did Front,
punch front 1 3/4 ! There's some front tumbling!


Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 17:46:00 PST
From: <***>
Subject: Front tumbling analysis

Bruce raised an interesting point.  Indeed it is easier to back
tumble.  I asked myself "why?".

Some fainthearted soul was afraid of getting into physics earlier today....

Heres my answer;
Stand up straight. Now lean back.  How far "off top dead centre" can
you bend ?  Now bend forward.  How far now ?

Heres whats happeneing; you can start head all the way down and get
180 swing out of your body as you snap into that backflip.  If you are
lucky you will still only be able to snap forward 90 degrees before
you are vertical.  This makes a great deal of difference in gaining
momentum.  It actually costs you more than half your momentum (Its not
a linear force curve.  Its kind of like those school grading curves
that cheat the smart kids in class)

For a forward pass you really need to get a rapid forward momentum and
running is the best way.  Now once you get your first forward flip,
you now have the same advantage as you had from your standing back
flip.  So really your first forward flip in you hardest.

For a reverse pass you need only start with a standing backflip to
begin you momentum.

If you could bend over backwards and touch the floor within 2 feet of
your heels and keep your legs straight (DONT EVEN THINK OF TRYING THIS
!)  you would then be able to tumble forwards and backwards equally
from a stop.

As I said before DONT try this position !  It could kill you or worse.


Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 1:17:21 PST
From: <***>
Subject: Front tumbling analysis

the other difference is in establishing your rotation.  In back
tumbling, you sort of "pull" your feet over your head.  In front
tumbling, you sort of kick your heels up over the top.  Which is
easier for YOU to do?

    Now once you get your first forward flip, you now have the same
    advantage as you had from your standing back flip.  So really your
    first forward flip in you hardest.

Nice theory, but wrong... Mostly because of the landing issue.
Under-rotate a front, and all your "momentum" gets used up keeping you
upright.  Overrotate it andyour momentum is "forward" instead of up.
Front, punch-front is a HARD combination...



Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 15:10:28 GMT
From: ***
Subject: Front tumbling analysis

>For a forward pass you really need to get a rapid forward
momentum and running
>is the best way.  Now once you get your first forward flip, you
now have the
>same advantage as you had from your standing back flip.  So
really your first
>forward flip in you hardest.

Thats down to inertia mainly, the second forward flip is still as hard
to do it`s just there are other forces assisting you which are making
it appear easier to do.

I think what your all trying to describe though is called
'Centre Of Gravity'.

When your CoG is low you can't 'fall' over when it is high you
can 'fall' over.

When you are going forward your CoG is low and it is very difficult to
overcome this to be able to perform a forward flip

Doing a backwards flip is easier because when you arch your back your
hips get higher and your CoG gets higher which makes it easier to
'fall' and therefore it is easier to flip.

Another major factor is height, the taller you are the higher CoG you
have and it is easier to 'fall', of course most gymnasts aren`t
generally the tallest people and they have a lower CoG. But if your
thin and small you have the same CoG as a taller stockier person.

Complicated isn`t it. And we haven`t even mentioned technique yet.



Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 19:18:49 EST
From: ***
Subject: Full turn(s) on Beam ??

I was just wondering if anyone has noticed if all full turn or turns
done on the beam are in one particular any athletes turn
clockwise while others turn couterclockwise. How about foot, has
anyone noticed if turns are executed equally on the right as the left?

Just curious,


Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 22:21:16 EST
From: <***@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Full turn(s) on Beam ??

Turns can be done on either leg.  A turn on the left leg is
properly done counter-clockwise; on the right: clockwise.
(some people do them the wrong way, though, but I doubt it
in high-level competition)



Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 17:31:26 -0600 (CST)
From: <***>
Subject: Q: front somersaulting

I guess that maybe should be "front vaulting", but anyways.

My question is based on Kerri Strug's new vault: Yurchenko-1/2.  She
does a round-off to the horse, immediate half twist off, into a front
layout.  This is valued a 10.0.  Meanwhile, a Yurchenko with a full
twist is a 9.8.  Another example of less twisting valued more is an
Arabian double front... that's essentially a "half-in, front out", if
you think about it.  A "full-in" is two flips and one twist, an
Arabian double front is two flips and 1/2 twist.

So here's my question.  I thought front tumbling was harder because of
the approach to the tumbling... harder to build up momentum or speed
or what-have-you.  However, both of the above have relatively the same
approach (backwards).  Does this indicate that flipping in the air
forward is significantly harder than flipping backwards?  Or is the
point difference almost solely because of the increased difficulty in
landing...?  Is a forward landing *that* much more difficult than a
backward one to mean the difference between a 9.8 and a 10.0, or to
mean a D (full-in) vs an E (Arabian)?  Or is the difference not *that*
great but the FIG thought this would also encourage forward tumbling?

I know we have enough people on Gymn now that someone must know the
answer to this...



Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 08:55:08 -0500
From: ***
Subject: Q: front somersaulting

Concerning front and back tumbling...

For me, it is much harder to do front tumbling than back tumbling.  I
guess the difference is in the landing.  Doing a back flip, you can
see the ground when you land.  This isn't true for front tumbling, you
just land.

At the same time, I think it is easier to "stick" forward movement
than back movement.

All this from personal experience.  I'm trying to stay away from the
physics of it all.



Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 22:20:32 PST
From: <***>
Subject: Several posts


After I heard about it, I posted my concern that it may become harder
to get in to watch competitions.


Betty Grable, cheesecake pinup girl of the 1940's had her legs insured
for $1 million.  In 1940, a million was a lot more than it is now.
Her posters adorned lockers of civilians and military all around the

More on insurance :

Insurance worries have been a major factor in many schools deleting
gymnastics from their programs.  I hold the insurance industry
responsible for the castration of american mens gymnastics.

Books on Gymnastics:

Ill check the Pro Shop at Calif Sports Centre, I think I can beat that
price.  Im sure Dave Peterson will UPS it to you if you want to order
one mail order.  Im not getting in the gym right now due to several
problems, but Ill get over to visit.

Prizes on the FAQ :

Dinner & Broadway with a famous gymnast ?  Well I already had dinner
with Bart and about a doz friends.  We had a wild time.  I just hope
he forgives me for the ice I spilt down his neck.....

NCAA scoring :

Cool !  I LOVE it !  This is to my advantage !  (MY goal is still to
become the oldest NCAA Mens Gymnast )

West Point meet :

That meet didnt count, NAVY wasnt there !

Victor Chao's intro :

I am going to drag him kicking & screaming to Calif Sports Centre and
get him in the adult program there.  Cant let him work out with Dave &
George, now, can we, him being a Stanfordite & all.... .

Univ Cincinatti ?  UGH !  (I lived in Hyde Park area for awhile.  Ever
hear of DEBCO ?  I worked there)

Stanford team slow start last year:

Coach Hamada can make a Marine Corp drill instructor look like a girl
scout if he wants.  I have no doubt he whipped the team back in shape.
It is rumoured but not confirmed that he offered the team the chance
to improve or carry out ritual suicide.  (Nasty rumour from some
unamed Golden Bear team member)

Vic Chao being intimidated by Jair Lynch :

I dont blame him a bit.  Jair really stole the show.  Yanked the rug
out from under everyone on the team.  After Jair rose to the top,
Booth's performance waned, likely discoraged by Jair.

Stanfords remaining team:

I will miss Bender.  The man was a joy to watch in motion (Except on
pommel horse!  PAC-10 92 was only time I didnt see him slip off)

Hardingate :

My relatives in Portland dont speak well of her.  They find her to be
an angry person who snaps out of control easily.


Dave Litwin, George Atkins, Chops and Vic Chao & I all live a LONG
days drive from LA.  We are about 400-500 mi North of LA.  Actually
most of LA is OK, Northridge ate it bad due to the fact that the soil
in the San Fernando valley is an old lakebed so it jiggled like jello
when the quake hit.  UC Northridge took it pretty bad.  Homes not
bolted to their foundatuions, buildings with poor crossbracing took it
hard.  The apt complex and the homes on stilts had little cross
bracing so the supports buckled and collapsed.  The 2 parking garages
did not have the new "cheveron brace" retrofit installed yet. (Dad Sis
& Bro are all Structural Civile Enginners and were drafted for
building triage) A crude oil line and a couple gas mains rruptured and
caught fire.  Several homes also caught fire too.

The press has zeroed in on the 8 or 10 worst spots in the entire area
to show.  Most of the rest is doing OK.  I spent yesterday delivering
$75k worth of networking equipment to get the LA portion of the
internet up and running.

I wouldnt worry too much about it except for anyone from Northridge.
Downtown LA the problems werre just stuff falling off shelves.

Now the quake to worry about is if the Hayward fault ever rips, that
will be bad news.  Death toll will be in the 3 to 4 digit range.


Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 02:25:19 -0600 (CST)
From: <***>
Subject: Trivia Set #8, questions

 #                                                                 #
 #  ________ G y m n ________                 \       |      ___   #
 #                               o     __o     |o     |o    (o     #
 #     An electronic forum       !__   \!      !      !      \.    #
 #       for gymnastics.       ====== ====== ====== ====== ======  #
 #                                                                 #

o  o  o  o  o  o  o   Gymn Trivia Set #8  o  o  o  o  o  o  o  o  o  o

TOPIC: NCAA Women's Gymnastics

[Disclaimer: I don't know a lot about collegiate stuff, so don't blame
me for this being "weak"...]

Thanks to Zoran for #1 and Karen K for #2!

--Q1. Which two women's teams have made it to every NCAA Nationals?

--Q2. Which gymnast on the Georgia team has competed in the Olympics,
but not for the US?

--Q3. How many regions are there and what are they?

--Q4. Which women's team was dropped in August 1993 but then
reinstated due to legal pressure regarding Title IX?

--Q5. This gymnast tore her ACL mid-way through last season as a
junior, after two very successful years.  It's widely believed that
had she not been injured, her team would have made the "NCAA
Super-Six" finals.

--Q6. What are the NCAA Super-Six finals?

--Q7. How many 10.0's were there at the 1993 National Champs?

--Q8. Who are some accomplished gymnasts that have already signed for
the 1995 season? (ie, looking through the list published by "The
Gymnastics Insider", which names does Rachele recognize, <grin>?)

--Q9. On what events are mats allowed this year (as in additional mats
to the competition ones)?

--Q10. Which two-time NCAA Champ made the 1988 Olympic team... *after*
her championships?


Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 17:18:46 -0600 (CST)
From: <***>
Subject: Valting finals

Looking in old _IG_'s, two different vaults were required in 1987 and
before (I don't know how long before), but beginning in 1989, gymnasts
had to demonstrate vaults from two different "families" of vaults.
This was basically done because everyone was doing various twisting
Yurchenkos in finals (everthing from 0 twists to 2, I think, in .5
increments).  They wanted a little more variety... so required two
different families.

Brandy Johnson competed the Yurchenko-full and a piked front with a
half twist.  She'd been competing both of those for a long time, so
had a lot of experience with both.



Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 16:49:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***
Subject: Vault finals

      I remember vaulting finals requiring two different vaults
being around in the days of the '84 Olympics. I'm trying to remember
if there was a requirement for vaults in vaulting finals having to be
from different families (i.e. you couldn't compete two types of
Tsukaharas or two different Cuervos).
      Brandy had the advantage because in all of her all-around
competitions in '89, she practiced performing her two different
vaults, so she had a big advantage the times of the year when she had
to be in an event final like World's where it was required.



End of gymn Digest