Wed, 3 Aug 94 Volume 2 :
GG, M Team
GG, names, newspaper typos
Goodwill Games (Rhythmic)
Goodwill RSG EF Results
Indian Gymnastics (was Re: names)
Kochetcova discredited unfairly
Men's Team & RSG Rundown as Well as AA Predictions
names (7 msgs)
NY Times on eating disorders
PR, USA Nationals
Retton's 10th anniversary
RSG Results from Goodwill
Senior Men - National Qualifyer scores (2 msgs)
Wants to go Back (3 msgs)
Women's AA Comments
This is a digest of the firstname.lastname@example.org mailing list.
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 22:02:43 -0400 (EDT)
Quick break from watching for a commentator bash. If you thought they
were bad before ;). Actually, you just have to look at the entire thing
in light of the social implications. It's obvious that Kathy cannot take
her eyes off of Bart, and that's why she seems to miss everything but
everyone's toes. (example: opening - she agreed with everything he said,
but didn't look at the camera at all. Instead, he was the focus of
attention (from ehr)). Anyhow..
How it related to the gymnastics. I think that (so far of what I've seen)
there have been a lot of calls by our beloved commentators in advance of
the action (mostly incorrectly?). I think it was bart who went "and a
solid landing" or something before (I don't recall who) made a mess of the
landing. Well, you win some you lose some.
I'll leave my comments concerning the gymnastics itself until after it's
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 14:32:40 EDT
What ever happened to Natalia Bobrava? Did she retire? Did she fall behind
when the Russian team really started to progress?---Brian
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:58:25 -0400
Subject: Don't Forget!!!!
>Goodwill Games Gymnastics are on *every* day starting Saturday. On Tuesday
>there is RSG. Sat-Mon. is the women's comp. Tues-Fri. the men take the stage.
Will RSG be on TBS? I didn't see it in the posted schedule.
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 19:24:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: GG, M Team
Scores from Reuters:
1. Russia (Dmitry Vasilenko, Alexei Volopayev,
Yevgeny Shabayev, Alexei Nemov) 171.200
2. Belarus (Ivan Pavlovsky, Andrei Kan, Vitaly
Rudnitsky, Alexander Shostak) 167.875
3. U.S.(Drew Durbin, Blaine Wilson,
Chainey Umphrey, Scott Keswick) 165.525
4. Romania (Dan Burinca, Sandro Nistor, Robert
Taciulet, Cristian Leric) 164.950
5. China (Dun Van, Chjon Dun, Chunsin Yuan,
Lyan Chjen) 163.950
6. Italy (Fabio Fedozzi, Giovanni D'Innocenzio,
Gianmetteo Centazzo, Paolo Bucci) 163.600
7. Japan (Honda Morimasa, Makoto Tamura,
Akihiro Hiramatsu, Takashi Chinen) 160.550
Notes from Reuters:
-The Russian men won "with almost embarrassing ease."
-Like the Russian women's squad, three of the four athletes were in
the top 12 this year at Worlds.
-The top individual was UKR's Misutin, who was competing as an
individual (ie his team wasn't there).
-Keswick fell off Pbars and Hbar, and then performed poorly on Pommels
(8.80). However, he scored a 9.775 on the "rungs".
-Voropaev scored the highest mark of the night, a 9.8, on rings.
However, he also fell on high bar and scored only 8.85 on the horse.
He was 3rd at this year's worlds...
Notes from UPI...
-Shabayev was the top Russian performer. He was 5th at this year's
Worlds. He had 56.925 points.
-Nemov scored 9.75 on pbars and 9.70 on floor.
Nemov: "I was very happy with my performance today, although I
suffered in the vault because I tried something new."
-The Russian team had a two-tenths deduction because Voropaev wore
white shorts on floor. The UPI says "the official Russian strip is
all-blue." -- so I'm not sure if the shorts are white with a blue
stripe or maybe all-blue?
-Misutin scored 57.100.
Art Shurlock [head coach, US]: "Russia are definitely extremely strong
-- much stronger than they were at the World University Games (in New
York in 1993)."
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 94 9:52:53 EDT
Subject: GG, names, newspaper typos
If Reuters thought Scott Keswick did well on the "rungs,"
the NY Times was even more confused about Shannon Miller
during the all-around. Monday's paper had a picture of
her blocking off the horse during one of her vaults,
and the caption described her as "hitting the bar during
This may have been mentioned before in the discussion of
names (I'm seriously behind in my mail), but after all
the deserved complaints about Bart and Kathy continuing
to mispronounce the names of Kochetkova and others,
it was ironic that when we could hear the Russian
PA announcing Shannon Miller, the "ll" was pronounced
as it would be in French or Spanish (like a gutteral
consonant "y"). Given the consonant collection that
Russian has, I'm sure that Jennie Thompson and
Marianna Webster were tough on the announcers, too.
Soni Meduna should have been a relative piece of cake.
Did Fabrichnova, especially on beam, remind anyone else
of Boginskaya? Even little things, like how she pointed
her toes, and how she moved out to the end of beam and
prepared herself for her tumbling pass. I didn't notice
this resemblance last year--has she grown substantially?
Is there a coach in common?
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 94 23:09:45 BST
Subject: Goodwill Games (Rhythmic)
Goodwill Games Rhythmic Gymnastics:
There are only eight competitors and it resulted in quite
an uneventful event I feel. Amina Zaripova the clear favourite
swept the field, though I'm surprised that Serebrianskaya didn't
make a stronger challenge for any of the titles.
Zaripova is sooo supple that I still can't believe despite watching
her for a couple of years. Gontar the young star is shining brighter
bit by bit. Caroline Hunt of the US did well too I feel, but being
no expert in this field, I have not a good idea of how they come up
with those marks. I was beginning to like Olga Vershinina (first
time I saw her) when she dropped her clubs at least four times in
her All-Around routine. Skorupinska is very Polish looking. And
the German commentator is confusing Albena Angova of Bulgaria with
Olga Gontar (Not just the commentator but the whole German production
team was showing Angova's routine during the later highlights program
and said that's the bronze medallist Olga Gontar.) Cardenoso the
Spainaird is getting better and finished a good fourth place.
They didn't show the event finals and I don't know the results but
Susan's already posted them. Here are the All-Around final results
again just for completeness:
1. Amina Zaripova (RUS) 39.000
2. Ekaterina Serebrianskaya (UKR) 38.400
3. Olga Gontar (BLR) 38.375
4. Amaya Cardenoso (ESP) 37.500
5. Katazyna Skorupinska (POL) 37.350
6. Albena Angova (BUL) 37.125
7. Caroline Hunt (USA) 36.750
8. Olga Vershinina (RUS) 35.250
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 94 05:47:14 EDT
Subject: Goodwill RSG EF Results
>From the AP (Rachele said she didn't have 'em so here they are)...
1. Amina Zaripova, Russia, 9.800.
2. Olga Gontar, Belarus, 9.725.
3. Yekat Serebryanskaya, Ukraine, 9.625.
4. Katarzyn Skorupinska, Poland, 9.400.
5. Caroline Hunt, United States, 9.325.
6. Olga Vershinina, Russia, 9.025.
7. Amaya Cardenoso, Spain, 8.700.
8. Albena Angova, Bulgaria, 8.450.
1. Serebryanskaya, 9.775
2. Gontar, 9.650
3. Zaripova, 9.450
(tie) Skorupinska, 9.450
5. Cardenoso, 9.425
6. Angova, 9.375
7. Hunt, 9.250
8. Vershinina, 8.650
1. Zaripova, 9.775.
2. Gontar, 9.750.
3. Serebryanskaya, 9.725.
4. Skorupinska, 9.400.
(tie) Cardenoso, 9.400.
6. Angova, 9.250.
7. Hunt, 9.200.
8. Vershinina, 9.000.
1. Zaripova, 9.750
(tie). Serebryanskaya, 9.750
3. Gontar, 9.700
4. Cardenoso, 9.425
5. Skorupinska, 9.400
6. Angova, 9.375
7. Hunt, 9.225
8. Vershinina, 9.050
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 94 0:24:55 18000
Subject: GWG,Men's team
I've got some free time tonight,so I thought I thought I'd comment on
First of all,cheers to TBS for having FANTASTIC coverage.Now if only
the other networks could follow suit.If a meet is taped(like this one)
they(the other networks) need to show the routine and maybe one replay
and move on to the next gymnast(like TBS did).I'd say this was the
best coverage I've seen since '89 worlds on ESPN.
Secondly,I was suprised by Blaine and Drew who did a great job at
their first international meet.On the other hand Chainey and
Scott(*ESPECIALLY* Scott) S-U-C-K-E-D.I don't understand what the hell
their problem is.Does anyone out there know or have any ideas? Can
they EVER hit all their their routines?And this is just the first
day!!!!!!!Yah,they recieved the Bronze medal but had this been Dortmond
(and had the other teams sent their best)they would have finished
WAAAYYYY back.I mean they were barely able to
hold off the other b-teams for!And they were in the final round where
the scores are higher!In Dortmond they'll be in the first round during
compulsories so they might not even make the final six.They need to
find out what their problem is,solve it,and spend a lot more time in
the gym.We have the facilities and coaches,so I think maybe the
problem is within the gymnasts themselves or maybe there is a struggle
between the coaches.I honestly don't know,but if things don't change
the US men's team is never going to challenge the top teams.
Are all the P-bar routines looking alike or is it just me.healy.double
back or double front.double pike dismount.Wasn't it *wise* for the new
code not to award originality.I hope they bring it back after '96.I
think it's wonderful that Chorkina basically ignores the code and
throws some of the coolest tricks in the code.
I WAS a little disappointed that they didn't mention who made AA.I
guess we'll just have to wait till tomorrow.I hope Blaine and Drew
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 94 05:27:38 EDT
Subject: Indian Gymnastics (was Re: names)
Hey they had a full men's team (3 gymnasts at that meet) at '93 Worlds. One
of their guys attempted a handspring double front on vault and hey he was
closer then Korby.
Checking my handy dandy 50 pence "Results Book" the Indian guys finished ...
121st overall in prelims - Debnath Ratan, 40.225 ... Valut gave him his
highest score of 7.975 and a low of 5.925 on PH
118th - Vikas Sabharwal 41.975 ... High of 7.9 on vault and a low of 6.025
116th - Rajesh Kumar 42.475 ... His hand double attempt gave him his highest
score of 8.025 and his lowest was a 5.45 on PH
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 14:32:34 EDT
Subject: Kochetcova discredited unfairly
I noticed something on the *P BB that really did disturb me. I see a few
people on there discrediting Dina K.'s victory in the AA by saying she only
won it because she was in Russia etc. This is completely untrue and really
unfortunate to see. When are people going to see that Shannon Miller is not
the only excellent gymnast out there? I can see that it's hard to see
someone else win besides SHannon because she's been smokin for two years but,
why can't people just accept a loss? It really wasn't a loss at all anyway.
After all Shannon has gone through w/ a growth spurt, a developing body and
injuries, she should be happy that she can still compete so well. I'm really
happy to be able to discuss gymnastics with well informed people like you all
who will not judge a gymnast by their country but, there performances. Dina
Kotchetkova deserved the AA title and she will be a contender throughout the
next two years. I can't wait to see more of her.---Brian
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 14:11:53 EDT
Subject: Marianna Webster
I think Marianna did so well in EF. Her score on beam was upped to a 9.725,
which gave her the bronze medal. I found out during the floor exercise while
watching TBS. Kathy and Bart brought it up. Also, while being interviewed,
Marianna had a medal around her neck.
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 94 23:24:00 EDT
Subject: Men's team
Go Grigory! :) Awesome vault - I'd love to see him win this AA title. So
where are the rest of the Ukrainian men? Can Korobchinsky, Sharipov, Marinich,
Shamenko ALL be injured? And why isn't Ivankov competing? Has anyone found that
out yet? I was sort of hoping Bart and Kathy might explain the no-shows (I
guess I was suffering from temporary insanity). The Russians are great, despite
their uncharacteristic errors. Shabayev is my favorite. But back to the topic
of temporary insanity - how could Arkaev, such an experienced coach, and
Voropayev, such an experienced competitor, both fail to notice that he was not
wearing the right shorts on floor?! I mean, Arkaev's been coaching FOREVER!
With all his accumulated errors, did Voropayev (listen to the Russian
announcer, not to Bart - that's all I'll say) even make AA? I know Misyutin was
the top qualifier and Shabayev the top Russian, but what are the rest of the
standings? Anyone know?
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 94 05:27:05 EDT
Subject: Men's Team & RSG Rundown as Well as AA Predictions
First off on a purely hormonal note let me say the Russian boy's are *Yummy*
with a capital "Y-U-M" Okay on with the show ("this is it .. da da da" any
Looney Tunes fans out there getting this?).
The Russians had what could quite possibly be the worst meet of their lives
and the nearly 4 point score gap between them and Belarus still didn't really
accurately reflect the actual gap in talent.
Nemov is a little god with big fuzzy hair. Toe point to die for. Leg form
that makes Bogie look like Dawes (yes Susan is being catty again ... get over
it) and a double pike that that Chinese diving girl would envy if she'd seen
it. P-bars are amazing ... the Russian's overall really excel here (and
everywhere else of course but here especially). Maybe Khorkina can help him
with that vault. On high bar that kid can do a lay out full twisting Tkatchev
that would blow your mind. Unfortunately, he then falls on the plain laid out
one and then gets knocked out of the AA in favor of Voropaev who pretty much
self destructed anyway ... but then again Susan (why do I keep referring to
myself in the third person tonight?) is still bitter about '93 which he
probably doesn't even remember. He's possibly my favorite gymnast competing
now (well after Karbonenko who's injured & Kharkov who's in Germany pouting
and maybe Igor who's just a sentimental favorite but Nemov is the prettiest
... got that? ... there *will* be a quiz later)
Voropaev was beautiful but a lot more Alexei like then that weird consistent
guy we saw in the AA at Brisbane. This is the boy who crashed and burned on
*compo* vault in both '91 and '92. Usually Sovs don't get the chance to make
errors twice. He looked as if someone had run over his dog ... this was not a
happy camper ... and who can blame him with a night like this? His rings
were a stunner (so still and controlled ... to bad we couldn't see the ROM
boy Burinca here). His HB was gutsy but really a 9.35 with a fall? I wonder
what Evgeny said when he got his 9.2 something for an essentially hit set
(slight hitch out of his Kovacs).
Speaking of the Kovacs. It's the Layout Pak Salto of Russian men's high bar.
Not that I'm complaining mind you ... they do it quite well. Though I really
wanna' see Alexei go for the Kovacs -hop full-Kovacs that I heard he was
training. Well gotta' mention Rudnitsky on this one. His Kovacs in Phoenix
(the tri-meet) was really up there but it was even better here. Even higher
then Ivankov's ... who practically has to file a flight plan before mounting.
To compare it to Trent Dimas's barely adequate move was nothing short of
cruel and unusual punishment. I mean Trent did the move okay but he was too
worried about catching it to worry about the finer things. Note to Bart:
There was no '90 Jr. Europeans (not AA or EF anyway ... was there a team?) so
Rudnitsky was 'fer sure not the champ there ... unless Bart is holding
imaginary meets in his mind again.
Shabaev. What can I say? He's Nemov but cuter and a smidge less extended (due
mostly to the fact that he's a good 4 inches shorter then the "giant" Nemov).
Nance and I found a shot of him as a skinny little nobody Sov in the '89
Champions All. Trying to grow a mustache (too many reruns of "Miami Vice" for
him ... though I must say it works) and look "cool." How cute! Well at least
he finally manages stubble unlike Scherbo who's been working on that walrus
look for at least 5 years with little success.
Vassilenko = double front. Wowsers! I thought that Kharkov's '88 was the best
I'd seen but this blew him away (sorry Sergei ... I still love you though
... and that '88 FX as a whole is still the best I've ever seen). He looked
like it could just have easily been a triple front. A triple front? Ponder
the lifespan of a knee on someone trying that one. Ouch! Put it on the "moves
I'd like to see list" along with a full twisting Yurchenko loop on BB and a
Kovacs on unevens. Interesting note: The Japanese who can't say "L's"
(RacheLe'd love them ;-) call him "Vasserenko" which is much more fun to
say. All together now ... VASSERENKO.
To sum the Russkie's up I think Adriana put it best when she said "I could
just stare at the Russians' handstands on PB for hours." Ditto. Actually I
could just stare at the Russian boys for hours period (I may be the only
women in the world who's description of the "perfect guy" includes toe point)
... but I bet you already guessed that eh? Seriously though, that's the
diff ... technique, technique, technique. Sure they did some huge skills but
more then that it's the *way* they did them. I mean Nemov's best skill, IMHO,
is his double pike which is like what a "C" maybe ?
It was great to see Grigori back and looking good (well the hair was still
bad but hey he's Sov - okay "was" Sov - and it's a law. In fact a law that
Shabaev is in violation of now that I think of it. Does he think he's too
cool for bad hair? How un-Russian of him.). His double front is grand as
ever. Slightly less toe point but no-one does it that well anyway so I'll
cute the "old" guy some slack. Besides he walked around half naked a lot
(removing that eyesore of a leo of all the UKR leo's why would he choose that
one?) which garners him bonus in my book. ;-)
Ukraine has a full men's team easy: Korobchinskii (current Euro silver
medalist ... indulge me I just get a kick out of calling Igor an AA medalist
again), Marinich (back from the dead ... or Woodward which is kinda' the same
thing), Ermakov (who's haircut Voropaev stole for some odd reason. Oh I know
Alexei was in violation of that "bad hair law" I mentioned. Remember he used
to look like kind of a "preppie Russian" which just isn't natural), Shemenko
<sp?> (who I've never seen but has done okay in a couple of fairly big
Scott. Two out and out falls (and one on a half turn on PB for god's sake!)
and a HB Geinger that wasn't even close. Two major stumbles. His FX (every
pass) and that huge PH bumble (is that a word?). All in all an average meet
for Scott the wonder boy. "Lord of the Rings" my ass. Feel free to whine at
me about these comments ... I don't bite ... well only when there's a full
moon and I've been dieting and then I only nibble and feel guilty about it in
the morning ;-)
Drew did a lot better then I would have thought. His Gaylord 2 into Stalder
(or was it Endo?) was cool if not perfect. I won't even go into the grace and
beauty that is Blaine Wilson (just not the same without Kip by his side).
Onto a happier (slightly) subject, the Belarussian's. Shostak really
surprised me. Pleasantly so that is. Great rings ... esp. for a guy with arms
the size of eyelashes. They skipped his FX but he's ultra flexible a la
Balabonov (great Y). He broke at the Aussie Nikon Int'l thingie along with
Yulia Yurkina (now there's a couple that would produce some sturdy kids ...
of course a Yurkina and Belanovsky - better known as "No Butt" - would be
even better. Their children would just be born and then disintegrate. A
unique new form of child care that could really catch on.). His pommels, p's,
and HB were all quite decent. Go figure.
Rudnitsky looked better then before but both he and Pavlovsky are pretty
Kan's alive!!! Kan's alive!!!! The Chinese (in looks and consistency factors)
Soviet boy has now bettered his own record and hit 2 meets in his life (watch
out Scott he's gaining on you). Andrei's cool even if he can't really hit or
do the really big stuff. He's an original all right. Was that huge thing
that he mounted FX with a pike Arabian double front. Neat-o Keen to the max
babe (I can't believe I said that). You also gotta' love this irony ... He's
a Mongolian horde throw back named "Kan" (ie: Khan) who was born in White
Russia (ie: Belarus). Ha! ... well I found it funny anyway. BTW, those BLR
leos are *ugly*.
Rhythmic ... well all five minutes of it we saw was nice. Zaripova is simply
not human. Nancy suggests thinking of them as cartoon characters to alleviate
your fear and revulsion. Her start and end poses alone are worth a look see
even if you're not an RSG fan. Her ball routine is the living end (sorry
Skaldina ... wherever you are). That black thing she wore for hoop finals ...
oh la la. Her leaps. I could gush forever but I won't (you can stop thanking
god now). She and Serebrianskaya are my favs. That Polish girl spins better
then most ballerinas and she actually has a butt. Overall for RSG gals they
all looked pretty healthy. Maybe this was the month they get to eat. Also,
did you get a load of that venue? Geez it had a full crowd (in Russia!) and a
stunning backdrop (columns and all) for what is an esthetically driven
sport/art. It was a perfect theater for their art.
Lastly, is it just me or are those guys that host the whole Goodwill thing
giving more intelligent gymnastics commentary then Bart and Kathy?
So did Vorop make the AA cut or not? Esp. after that 2 tenths "wrong shorts"
deduction. Yeah Steve and Bart that home town advantage has really helped the
Russians out of many jams. I'd personally like to see Nemov, Shabaev, and
Voropaev [Aside to Rachele: that's the name that rolls of the tongue for me
... say it a couple times rolling the "R" and see if you don't agree ... very
exotic ... very Russian ... besides Alexei is my favorite name]. Dmitri is
nice but not a real exciting all arounder.
My AA picks are as follows ... Shabaev 'cause the guys damn consistent when
it counts. If Voropaev makes it he could be just angry enough about his
miserable day to take the cake here. Grisha will also challenge but probably
make some error that loses it for him. Nemov will most likely get a bronze
behind some of these guys. I betcha' that Scott's got a large bit of the
falling out of his system and pulls out a good finish here. He tends to do so
in AA's. Now when I'm wrong you can all make fun of me and call me stupid.
As Always (read: "Bitchy and lengthy"),
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 11:37:34 +0800
As Robyn's post about the Russian announcer's pronunciation of "Miller"
suggested, it's actually next to impossible to get a foreign name correct.
The vocabulary is different and the same sounds don't exist. Anyone that
has taken a foreign language must be aware of this. Because of this, you
could spend four years preparing to pronounce those Russian and Chinese
names exactly the way a native would say them, only to mispronunce them
anyway, relative to the way your audience would say them. Someone from
Japan would not pronounce "Miller" the way Shannon would say it. (Actually,
nobody outside of Oklahoma would pronouce it the way she would!)
And if they spelled "Miller" out in katakana (the alphabet used to spell
words of foreign origin), indeed its spelling would agree with the way the
Japanese speaker says it.
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com Subject: names
> >Anyway, Im getting off trach here, but it takes little time to learn
> >pronounciations of names. I still have trouble with southeast asian names. I
> >still cant for the life of my pronounce the name Huyn yet. I only learned a
> >week agpo to pronounce Nguyen correctly (pronounced 'wen')
> Hmm, a friend of mine with that name said (approximately) NOO-ee-en. The
> one I can't figure out is Ng (I have heard "eng" but I don't think that's
> really right...)
Ng is "eng" only by itself, and even that I think is only in chinese.
S E Asia, its a whole new set of rules with just enough French tossed in to
make it interesting.
Actually I suspect that Rachele's pronunviation of Nguyen is better than mine.
I vote for "noo-een" too.
But I am making great improvements in Indian names now.
You just have to say them slowly until you get the speed up.
Hmmmm..... How come we never hear of Indian gymnasts ?
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:34:52 -0700 (PDT)
> Actually, in Sunday's competition, I heard the Russian announcer
> mispronouncing "Miller" as MEE-yer, so it's not only the American
> announcers who do it.
They are having a rough time because spanish is becoming part of the USA.
Double l in spannish is pronounced as a y.
The russians are having a heck of a time figuring out when the j is a j
and when its an h (as in San Jose')
I think we yanks are the worst about not bothering to get names right.
Just last week "Hey man, Im moving down to 'Josey'" (meaning San Jose)
I was embarassed to over hear such a conversation.
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:53:00 -0700 (PDT)
> I mean I have even known
> some sports personalities change their names because
> they know the
> TV people will never get it right.
Being in the "biz" I can say sadly you are right.
> The pronounciation or the spelling of the name should be
> sorted out, its a common decency surely. How come there isnt
> some form of group which represents the gymnasts themselves
> for just this kind of thing, call it a union if you like
> but most sports have something like this.
Unionize the gymnasts ?!? Are you outta your mind ?!?
Next thing they will want is pizza, and after that maybe sensible
diets and hours. ACK !!! THPPPBBLLTT !
Something like that could start getting on Bela & Nunno's cases whjen they
abuse their girls ! How you expect gymn to survive in this country if we
allow the kids to stand up to authority ?
I mean abuse of young girls is what keeps gymn running !
Tongue planted FIRMLY in cheek !
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 94 22:40:16 BST
Regarding pronounciation of names, the BBC here in UK are very good
at them. They do research on how to pronounce them before they say
it. The latest of which is Nadia Hatagan, they especially say it as
'Hertzergan' because they said that is how it should be pronounced.
(I'm no expert of course, bit I'm taking their words for it) I just
love the BBC commentary, they get you excited and their infos are
correct and they don't over-criticise the gymnasts. My favourite
line from a BBC commentary is probably during the 92 Olympics,
during Milosovici's floor exercise in the floor final. Just before
her incredible second tumbling pass, Mitch Fenner our commentator
said, 'If you think the first tumble was magic, watch this.' (Her
first tumble was full-in back-out punch front) Then after Milo's
second complex tumble, Mitch yelled 'Unbelievable!'. That got me
BTW, as to how to say 'Ng', It's similar to saying 'Hmmm' but with
your mouth open. Try it!
(No problem saying my surname, I hope!)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 94 18:01:25 EDT
Texx could very well be right that the Russians took the "ll" in "Miller"
to be pronounced "y," as in Spanish. But I think the announcer probably did
have an "l" in there, only it would be hard for American ears to hear it.
Russian has 2 "l" sounds, one "hard," one "soft." When I heard the announcer, I
thought she was using the Russian soft "l." I think the problem actually lay
with the "i," since, strange as this may seem, the Russian language does not
have that sound (the English soft i). So even though "Miller" is an incredibly
easy name for English-speakers to pronounce, a Russian would have to practice a
LOT to get it right. On the whole, I thought the Russian announcer did quite
well with the American names, considering they were full of sounds that don't
exist at all in Russian (the "a" in "Shannon," the "j" in "Jennie," the "o" in
"Soni," the "w" in "Webster," and the aforementioned "i" in Miller). Russian
only has "pure" vowel sounds, with the exception of "eh" - they can do that.
But things like "u" as in "but," "a" as in "cat," and other "flat" sounds
simply do not exist in Russian. So I wouldn't fault the announcer too much for
getting those sounds wrong. Similarly, I don't fault any American commentator
for getting "kh," "shch" and "y" (when it's in the middle of a name, like
"Lysenko," not when it's at the end - then it's easy: "ee"), because those
sounds do not exist in English. The "y" is by far the hardest - it's a strange
sort of sound made at the back of your throat and English has NO equivalent to
it. So most people end up saying "Lee-sen-ko" or "Lie-sen-ko," neither of which
is correct, but I can't really criticize English-speakers for not being able to
pronounce a sound that doesn't exist in English. When I criticized Bart and
Kathy for mispronouncing "Kochetkova," it was because that name is not hard for
English-speakers to pronounce. All they had to do was shift the stress and they
had it right. But I was much easier with them on "Khorkina," since "Kh" doesn't
exist in English, so they'd have to practice a lot to get it right.
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 18:47:02 EDT
Y'all have to remember that Shannon Miller with a New York announcer will be
In Alabama she'd be Shannnnneeen.
In RusskieLand there are all kinds of accents. How crazy are we going to get
with all of this.
When will the glottal stop!
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 94 19:48:26 EDT
Subject: NY Times on eating disorders
Did anyone else see yesterday's (Aug. 1) article in the NY Times on eating
disorders? It was very interesting, and accompanied by an Aug. 1993 photo of
Christy and her fiance. I NEVER would have recognized Christy if the caption
hadn't said it was her. She was smiling and looked happy, but was very
emaciated. It was a scary, and very sad, sight... The article raised some
interesting questions and points. (Btw, it's by Neil Amdur - I don't want to
violate any copyright rules here!) First, in a section headed "Biochemicals or
Behavior?" it says that researchers haven't yet figured out "what comes first
in the process - the biochemical imbalance in the brain that causes athletes to
lose weight or behavioral components." A Dr. Julia Taub later comments that
once female athletes get anorexia "the disease controls them. It takes over."
But what I found extremely interesting is some studies that were done comparing
how the male and female bodies respond to exercise. One study followed "a group
of male and female novices training for their first marathon. Over a period of
80 weeks, the men showed a loss of body weight and fat, while the women had no
change." Two other studies were mentioned that yielded the same results: the
men lost body weight and % of fat mass, and the women didn't. Dr. Taub
concludes "If exercise or physical activity on its own, as it does with males,
does not result in desirable weight loss for women, they must resort to
restrictive dieting. They take it too far and the result is anorexia." I had
never known about this difference between males and females when it comes to
exercise and weight loss, but it sure does a lot to explain why most anorexics
On the same page of the Times there is an article covering W AA, and it
says that Steve Nunno said he might have Shannon skip the 1995 Worlds. Does
anyone know if this was a typo by the Times? I thought Steve had been talking
about not sending Shannon to *Dortmund*, not Sabae. Anyway, it certainly seems
a bit early to be making decisions about Sabae!
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 19:21:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: PR, USA Nationals
PR would mean, of course, Press Release. (And yes, Susan, I'm really
talking about a Press Release this time, but thanks for checking.
July 22, 1994
Luan Peszek, Director of Public Relations
Ramonna Robinson, Manager of Public Relations
Two-Time World Champion Miller Leads Roster for
1994 Coca-Cola National Gymnastics Championships
Shannon Miller (Edmond, Okla.), the only two-time American World
Gymnastics Champion in history, is set to defend her national title at
the 1994 Coca-Cola National Gymnastics Championships, August 24-27, in
Nashville, Tennessee's Municipal Auditorium.
Miller will be challenged by 1992 Olympians Dominique Dawes (Silver
Spring, Md.) and Kerri Strug (Tucson, Ariz.). Other members of the
1994 World ChampionshipsTeam expected to compete include Larissa
Fontaine (Deerfield, Ill.) and Amanda Borden (Cincinnati, Ohio). 1993
Junior National Champion Jennie Thompson (training in Oklahoma City,
Okla.) is moving to the senior division and should challenge for one
of the top positions.
Three-time National Champion and 1992 Olympian John Roethlisberger
(Afton, Minn.) will lead the men's roster. By winning another national
title, Roethlisbergerwill become the first gymnast since Mako Sakamoto
(1963-1966) to win four national all-around titles. Roethlisberger
will be challenged by 1992 Olympians Scott Keswick (UCLA), Chris
Waller (Albuquerque, N.M.), and Jair Lynch (Stanford). 1992 Olympic
Gold Medalist Trent Dimas (Albuquerque, N.M.) is also expected to make
a come back and challenge for a spot on the National team. Mihai Bagiu
and Chainey Umphrey, both 1994 World Championships Team Members from
Albuquerque, N.M,are also top contenders.
Junior National Champions Katie Teft from Grand Rapids, Mich., and
Doni Thompson from Colorado Springs, Colo., are set to compete as
well. These two athletes tied for first all-around at the 1994
American Classic in the Junior Division. Thompson captured the gold
all-around medal at the U.S. Olympic Festival-'94, along with gold
medals on beam and bars and silver medals on floor and in the team
The top 20 women and 14 men will earn spots on the Senior National
Team, while four men will qualify to the Senior Elite Development
Team. An additional 12 women and seven men will make the Junior
The top 16 women from this competition will qualify to the NationsBank
World Gymnastics Team Trials to be held October 15-16 in Richmond, Va.
The top seven men will make up the 1994 World Championships Team,
which will travel to Dortmund, Germany, Nov. 11-20, for the Team World
The Coca-Cola National Gymnastics Championships are scheduled to air
on NBC August 27 and 28.
The competition schedule is as follows:
Wednesday, August 24
Jr. Women's Compulsories 10:00 a.m. $5 all levels
Jr. & Sr. Men's Compulsories 2:00 p.m. $5 all levels
Sr. Women's Compulsories 7:00 p.m. $15/$8/$5
Thursday, August 25
Jr. Women's Optionals 2:00 p.m. $5 all levels
Jr. & Sr. Men's Optionals 7:00 p.m. $15/$8/$5
Friday, August 26
Sr. Women's Optionals 7:00 p.m. $20/$15/$10
Saturday, August 27
Sr. Men's Individual Event Finals 1:00 p.m. $20/$15/$10
Sr. Women's Individual Event Finals 6:00 p.m. $20/$15/$10
Tickets are on sale at all Ticket Pro locations including Municipal
Auditorium Box Office, Hickory Hollow Mall Customer Service Center and
Sheplers Western Wear in Rivergate. Reserve tickets (with or without a
credit card) at 291-5000 or (outside Nashville) at 800/834-5678. Visit
a participating Kroger store Coca-Cola gymnastics display for $3
discount coupons. For group discounts call 615/832-0250.
Btw, I will be at USA Nationals this year, and yes I'll have Geneve
(my portable) with me, and she and I will be busy dashing off reports
to keep you all up to date (although it will be on TV [not all of it,
of course]... and I won't be there for compulsories...)
I'm going to try to get in some athlete/coach interviews while I'm
there. If there's anyone in particular that you want to know more
about, let me know and, time and opportunity permitting, I'll get in
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 21:25:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Retton's 10th anniversary
The AP has written this incredibly long story about Retton's gold in
1984 since tomorrow (August 3rd) marks the 10 year anniversary. It's
basically a rehash of the book she wrote with Karolyi. The article
makes this big todo about how Retton's arthroscopic surgery was a huge
secret before the Games (hunh?) and about how she wouldn't talk about
it publicly until now (umm... yeah...).
Anyways. I'm not going to post it to Gymn because we've had *so*much*
traffic lately, and this sucker is 558 lines long, and I'm all
tuckered out from dissecting the real news (read: GG). However, if
you happen to be a big Retton fan, and just can't get enough of that
"1,000 watt smile" (I'll allow myself one direct quote), then feel
free to email me and I'll send you the article.
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 12:44:30 EDT
Subject: RSG Results from Goodwill
From the AP ...
1. Amina Zaripova, Russia, 39.000 points.
2. Yekat Serebryanskaya, Ukraine, 38.400.
3. Olga Gontar, Belarus, 38.375.
4. Amaya Cardenoso, Spain, 37.500.
5. Katarzyn Skorupinska, Poland, 37.350.
6. Albena Angova, Bulgaria, 37.125.
7. Caroline Hunt, United States, 36.750.
8. Olga Vershinina, Russia, 35.250.
All-Around Individual Apparati
Hoop--1, Zaripova, 9.750. 2, Serebryanskaya, 9.600. 3, Gontar, 9.500. 4,
Cardenoso, 9.400. 5, Angova, 9.400. 6, Skorupinska, 9.300. 7, Hunt, 9.050. 8,
Ball--1, Zaripova, 9.700. 2, Gontar, 9.600. 3, Serebryanskaya, 9.600. 4,
Cardenoso, 9.350. 5, Skorupinska, 9.350. 6, Angova, 9.300. 7, Hunt, 9.250. 8,
Ribbon--1, Zaripova, 9.750. 2, Gontar, 9.700. 3, Serebryanskaya, 9.550. 4,
Cardenoso, 9.400. 5, Skorupinska, 9.400. 6, Angova, 9.300. 7, Hunt, 9.200. 8,
Clubs--1, Zaripova, 9.800. 2, Serebryanskaya, 9.650. 3, Gontar, 9.575. 4,
Cardenoso, 9.350. 5, Skorupinska, 9.300. 6, Hunt, 9.250. 7, Angova, 9.125. 8,
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:38:45 +1000
Subject: Senior Men - National Qualifyer scores
Okay - this is from a fax, so forgive me if I get some of the club guy's
names wrong. I work with NCAA - just remember that before you start
berateing. These are the weighted scores. This list does not include the
1993-94 Senior National Team Members. The top 22 qualify into the 1994
Coca-Cola National Championships.
People petitioning - Mike Williams, Chris Waller, Tom Meadows ( interesting
since he did go to a qualifier and got 41st.), Dennis Harrison
I notice that Trent Dimas is not on this list - he is injured, taking
adavantage of winter nationals (like Mike Racanelli) or not really going to
do a come back?
NAME REGION CLUB ADJUSTED SCORE
1 Bryan Casey Mid West U of Ok 108.60
2 Jeremy Kellen Mid West U of OK 108.32
3 John Maoneady Mid West OTC 107.88
4 Jeff LaVallee East Daggett's 107.40
5 Kyle Asano (sp?)Mid West OTC 106.94
6 J.D. Refvo (sp?)Mid West OTC 106.88
7 Brent Klaus East International 106.50
8 Josh Stein West Stanford 106.38
9 Mike Masucci East Penn State 106.18
10 Jarrod Hanks Mid West U of OK 106.16
11 Mike Dennuci West UCLA 104.98
12 Spencer Slaton West UCLA 104.88 or .86
13 Jason Christie Mid Esat U. of Neb 104.82
14 John Thornton Mid East Hawkeye gym 104.62
15 Calvin Booker East Daggett's 104.26
16 Michael Moran East Daggett's 103.88
17 Lou Daillo Mid West OTC 103.84
18 Todd Brumley East Knoxville gym 103.76
19 Larry Johns Mid West U of OK 103.40
20 Mark Booth West Stanford 103.04
21 Rick Kieller(sp?) Mid East U of Neb 102.48
22 Nat Goodale East Ohio State 102.38
23 John Vogt Mid East Hawkeye gym 101.74
24 Garry Denk Mid East Northbrook gym 101.40
25 Aaron Coller Mid East Hawkeye gym 100.72
26 Dave Frank East Temple U 100.22
27 Greg Umphery West UCLA 100.05 (.03)
28 Brian Ottenhoff Mid East U. of Minn 99.70
29 Keith Wiley West Stanford U. 98.90
30 Martin Larsen West 98.25
31 Chris Young Mid East Carolina Twisters 97.54
32 Don Brown Mid East Browns Metro 97.50
33 Mark Oliver South U of Wash 97.14
34 George Hery West 96.26
35 Chase Penny Mid East U of Ill/Chic 95.90
36 Kirk Johnson West 95.44
37 Mark Mehringer East Daggett's 95.40
38 Doug Seibet (sp)Mid East Northbrook gym 92.96
39 Chad Duncan South HGC 89.70 (could be 88.70)
40 Richard Grace Mid East U of Neb 84.10
41 Tom Meadows Mid West U of OK 76.70
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 17:11:04 +1000
Subject: Senior Men - National Qualifyer scores
>>10 Jarrod Hanks Mid West U of OK 106.16<
>If you happen to have any recent info on him I'd be interested to hear it.
> Haven't heard anything since he blew out his shoulder (was that it or was it
>a knee or ankle) last year on p's.
I will check on his status tonight and post what I find out. But from the
score I would say he has made a full recovery from his injuries - I think
you are right about it being the shoulder, but then there are lots of
injuries out there, so it could be a knee.
>Also do all these guys (top 22) *plus* last years team get to go to
>nationals? I noticed Keith Wiley finished below the cut off ... bummer nice
>guy and some *super* tumbling when he hits it. Isn't Richard Grace Canadian?
Shame about Dave Frank too, his Rings scores were the best - in compos. he
came off the horse 3 times and 2 times in opt. I know he is planning to
revise the opt. set for winter nationals. He is one of the guys with great
Richard Grace is not Canadian - unless he is pulling dual citizenship.
>Is Waller injured or just not up to a qualifier.
I don't think he is injured, but I can nose around on that one tonight
also. I plan on making a few phone calls, so he'll be included.
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 21:28:05 EDT
>What would Shannon's absence do to NBC's coverage? Would it >be enough for
them to drop it?
NBC will air the USA Nationals regardless of who attends. As you all know
this will be a particularly interesting meet with all kinds of emerging
We will air the Women's All-Around on Saturday from 8-9 eastern time (only 1
hour, but . . . . .) Hopefully we'll get some Men's highlites in.
Event finals air on Sunday from 7-8 pm. Imagine cramming all that in an
That's the hand we're dealt. That's what the marketplace dictates. But two
hours in prime time is cool nevertheless.
Can't wait to hear all the rips from the Gymn maniacs after we're done. Just
because I'm online with you guys doesn't mean you can't go wild about the NBC
Coverage if it's not up to snuff.
We all know Susan and Mara will unload the bombs!!!!!
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 14:03:57 EDT
Subject: Wants to go Back
Hello, its Jessica again. I am 12, and quit level 9 18 months ago,
because my coach pushed to hard, and didn't care about the gymnasts at all,
just winning. Now I miss the sport so much, and want to go back, but have
lost so much strength, and may have trouble getting my giant and
backhandspring-layout on beam. I also want to visit my friends. WHAT SHOULD
I DO? Also, I'm now on a competetive soccer team, which my father somewhat
keeps pressure on me to stay with it because he didn't like gymnastics as
much as soccer.
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 12:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Wants to go Back
> Hello, its Jessica again. I am 12, and quit level 9 18 months ago,
> because my coach pushed to hard, and didn't care about the gymnasts at all,
> just winning. Now I miss the sport so much, and want to go back, but have
> lost so much strength, and may have trouble getting my giant and
> backhandspring-layout on beam. I also want to visit my friends. WHAT SHOULD
> I DO? Also, I'm now on a competetive soccer team, which my father somewhat
> keeps pressure on me to stay with it because he didn't like gymnastics as
> much as soccer.
Tell your old man that you love him very much but gymn is what you truly want to
do and that you are sure that if he loves you, he will go along with your
wishes. Also tell him that you understasnd his concerns over gymn as a sport
but you are willing to take your chances with the injuries. Remond him that
soccer also has injuries.
Then find a new gymn coach. Interview THEM. This person is gonna be working
for YOU. Make it clear that you have expexctations of THEM. Make sure they
understand why you left LAST time. Make it clear that you will NOT permit it
to happen again. Remiond them that good sportsmanship comes first.
Being 12, its hard to stand up against a mean nasty adult, but you can do it.
Dont take "NO" for an answer.
Last of all, never forget that old latin motto "Sockitto'em!"
Go for it !
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 16:22:27 EDT
Subject: Wants to go Back
>Hello, its Jessica again. I am 12, and quit level 9 18 months ago,
>because my coach pushed to hard, and didn't care about the gymnasts at all,
>just winning. Now I miss the sport so much, and want to go back, but have
>lost so much strength, and may have trouble getting my giant and
>backhandspring-layout on beam. I also want to visit my friends. WHAT SHOULD
>I DO? Also, I'm now on a competetive soccer team, which my father somewhat
>keeps pressure on me to stay with it because he didn't like gymnastics as
>much as soccer.
Maybe you could get back into gymn on a less competitive level (if that would
be of interest to you) -- work out once or twice a week but not compete.
Lots of gyms offer such a program -- some call it post-competitive. Look
around. Also look for "adult" programs which tend to cater to both
beginners and "retired" gymnasts, helping everyone to practice at their
own level -- you may be a tad young for them, depending on the group, but
I know of some gyms where the adult programs are where everyone over 12
who's too good for the basic recreational program ends up (that is who
Try to think about why you want to get back into gymnastics. Is it the
competition that you love, just doing the sport (if so see above), the
friends you have made in the gym, etc.
If you want to get back into competition, you have two choices -- you can
go back to the club you came from where your friends are but where you
know what the coaching attitude is like, or you can try to find a new club
as Texx suggested. Depending on where you live, though, this may not be
an option for you.
If you just miss your friends, maybe you could drop by the club and visit
sometime and arrange to do something else with them (if they have the time).
Good luck, and let us know what you decide. I know you put "WHAT SHOULD I
DO?" in your letter, but of course you have to make that decision for
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 21:28:30 EDT
Subject: Women's AA Comments
This is from Adriana (Gimnasta) not me she sent it to me and asked me to
pass it on if I felt it was worthwhile. Obviously I do so here it is (exactly
as she wrote it BTW) ...
I'm just sending this to you since I don't know what's been said on Gymn and
I don't want to be repetitive, so forward at your discretion, if you think
I know they were having trouble with the computers, so I don't know whether I
saw the right ones, but I think some of the scores you compared weren't
accurate (for ex: BB: 9.887 Miller, 9.85 Kochetkova (not 9.537)).
>Lilyia actually does the vault correctly (perfectly to be exact ...
completely laidout and impossibly high)
Podkopayeva's *is* far better (Miller's scores on that vault are ludicrous),
but I don't think even she does the 1/2 early enough (none of them do).
It's so sad to see Chussy vault now. She used to be such a god on that event
and now is only so so. Poor ChuChu ... she won that event in both '91 and '92
it's just that no-one noticed (including the judges).
>Actually, I thought she looked pretty good; I thought it was the best piked
front half of the meet.
> (it's a Xiao Rhizu that Malya does ... not a Kim Gwang Suk as Kathy said
It's a Kim G.S. in women's, a Xiao Ruizhi in men's.
Thanks so much for sending me all this stuff over the last few days; I really
appreciate it. Did you write anything about finals? I didn't get anything.
The thing that stands out the most to me was Miller's vaults. Her second
place was the most outrageous thing I've seen in a long time. If I'd been
the STC, I would've been awfully tempted not to count the second vault as a
layout, but as a pike, in which case I'm not sure what would happen b/c it's
not in the Code (only the Yurchenko versions are; a pike is a 9.8). I assume
she submits it to the judges before the meet (the layout isn't in the Code
either, b/c she did it for the first time at Worlds but fell), but if she
submits a layout and does a pike, which is neither in the Code nor submitted
to the judges, then she did a "nonexistent" vault and I suppose that would be
a 0.0. But I'm not a very experienced judge; this is just my guess. Anyway,
most people are more lenient than I am, especially with the world champion,
and especially when a 0.0 is involved. <sigh> (If both were submitted, the
vault would probably start at 9.8, like the Yurchenko version, and get a 0.3
deduction for calling the wrong vault.) At any rate, I'd go the full 0.3 for
not enough layout position. That's already a 9.7, plus I'd deduct for ending
the twist too late and for the landing, which wasn't perfect (and maybe for
insufficient height, which would be why she had to pike so much, but she also
overrotataed, so I'm not sure she was really too low; I have to look again),
and already we're looking at somewhere in the 9.4-9.5 range at most.
Ok, enough. I'm just so annoyed.
End of gymn Digest