gymn Digest                 Tue,  2 Aug 94       Volume 2 : Issue 158

Today's Topics:
                       Administrivia:  volume!
       Another Aussie Commonwealth Team Profile - Brett Hudson
                   But it's Kathy's fault, ya know?
                         Correction (2 msgs)
                       GG: notes on Kochetkova
                       GG: say what?? (2 msgs)
                              GG: W, AA
                            Goodwill Games
                 Goodwill Games (Womens Event Finals)
                     Goodwill Women's EF Results
                   I solved the BartConner mystery
                            Misc (2 msgs)
                            names (4 msgs)
                             names and EF
                        Our Bart Impersonator
                              True Story

This is a digest of the mailing list. 


Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 15:10:31 EDT
From: ***@MIT.EDU
Subject: Administrivia:  volume!


If you're feeling overwhelmed by the volume the past few days, be
assured that it will soon die down a bit.  If you prefer to get
your mail in big chunks once or twice a day (during high-volume times,
once every few days during lower-volume times) you may request to
be switched to digest format.  Email to to have this
done.  Same address for switching back.

Note that a switch to digest involves unsubscribing from the regular
list and being subscribed to the digest list.  For technical reasons,
the unsubscription from the regular list (when switching or fully
unsubscribing) takes at least a day to take effect.  The addition to
the digest, however, takes place with the next issue.  So, you will usually
get some overlap.

Unsubscribe requests (sniff) should also be addressed to

Yours in Gymnastics,


Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 12:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***
Subject: Another Aussie Commonwealth Team Profile - Brett Hudson

> An aside from Susan ... I noticed while looking at the pics from Brisbane
> that the Aussie boys in general were quite cute (esp. that Tim
> what's-his-name). Not quite as cute as the Soviets but pretty fine
> none-the-less. Unfortuanately Nancy was so thoughtless as to not take any
> pictures of them from behind (though I am rubbing off on her since I saw one
> of Igor's backside). ;-)

Tisk tisk !
(maniacal laughter)
Gonna posts gifs or jpg's ?
(More laughter)

After some of the sexist crap we get on the net about girls, I am
ROFLOL with the girls turning the tables on us guys.

You are right, Aussies are adorable, but Eastern Bloc guys are cuter to my
tastes !
(Yet MORE laughter)

> Brett Hudson (age 20) is the new Australian national champ (replacing Brennon
> Dowrick who missed out on the comp. with an injury according to the article)
> and talks about putting his personal life, including marriage plans, on hold
> ... "Gymnastics has to come first if you're serious about success ... At one
> stage they tried banning us from having girlfriends,  then they tried to ban
> girls from coming over to the Institute.

I LOVE this logic. So what do they want him to HAVE ?  BOYfriends ?
Sometimes coaches can be SO CLUELESS !

(Now I dunno whether to laugh or cry)

Some gymnasts have been told that they cant have relationships, and soon the
isolation gets to them and they leave the sport, sometimes bitter.

I far prefer the logic of one coach, realizing that there was no way to get rid
of the girlfriend without losing the athlete, he drafted the girlfriend into
helping the guy training.
You should have seen the look on the athlete's face when he recognized her
voice from behind the first time yelling at him
"Come on, you slacker, my GRANDMA could do a better kip than that !"

He never made the olympic team but he did better than he was before once she
joined the coaching staff.  I wonder what ever happened to them ?
Rumour hazzit he eventually married her.


Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 13:34:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***
Subject: Bart

Texx puts on his "broadcasting hat"

Unfortunately, I cant tell most of my Bart stories in public...

Actually the comentators are told by network brass what to say etc.
Blame THEM !
Bart is smarter than he may seem.
Do not understimate this guy !
Living in mens gymn for so long, you have to stay focused, so keeping up
with the girls is VERY hard, so Bart comes off as clueless about womens gymn
soetimes.  This guy is trying hard to become a serious TV person, but is
trapped into a "male bimbo" category right now.  For the moment he is stuck.
CSometimes the stress of being stuck like this comes off as awkwardness.
I seriously suspect that he really wants to parlay this into acting but untill
he comes off better on the tube, Hollywierd wont have him.


Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 14:55:31 EDT
From: ***
Subject: But it's Kathy's fault, ya know?

Ha ha and BTW contrary to what several people have suggested I did *NOT*
write this. First off if I had it would have been funny and secondly I don't
 *EVER* write anything that  I wouldn't put my name on and take both the
credit and the blame (so there) . . .

Actually I've met Bart a couple times and was shocked at how *not* retarded
he was. Maybe the dye from that brightly colored ABC jacket just leaks into
his brain when he's commentating.  I have also done voice over "commentating"
on a few tapes for my friends and as stuff cuts from one to another I find
myself making little errors just trying to remember everything that I wanted
to say and you can't "take it back" so to speak.

Oh well that's enough defending now I  will share a little story abut the
mighty Bart ...

After the AA in Birminghnam (less then an hour after to be exact) where
Ivankov was just barely out of third ... He'd have gotten it except they
really wanted Wecker to finally have a medal so that maybe he would retire
(no such luck ... German boys don't feel complete unless they do at least
three Olympics) so they ignored an almost fall off PH and gave Andi (really
he *likes* to be called that) just enough to edge Ivan ... Anyway, I was
chatting with Bart afterwards (at the bar having a turkey and butter sandwich
... Birmingham is not known for it's abundance of late night - meaning
anything after 8 PM - food selections) and he asked me who was in a certain
picture. It was a close-up face and upper body shot of Ivankov (a good shot easy to recongnize). I therefore said "Ivankov" and gave him them
the "duh" look. He remained puzzled and I said "Ivan Ivankov Belarus; you
know 4th place about an hour ago?" Slowly - like clouds rolling out after a
thunderstorm - understanding dawned on Bart's face.

Thank god we have those "expert commentators" to help us through the rough

This Magic Bart Conner Memory Brought To You By ...


PS- I also heard that he needed to have Gutsu pointed out to him in podium
training in Nates ('92 W Euros)  and Kathy always walks around at meets
announcing to all and sundry that she's "just had a workout."  You can tell
since she has the casual sweatshirt thrown over her shoulders atop the
carefully selected work-out attire and, of course, full hair and makeup.


Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 18:00:30 PDT
From: ***
Subject: Correction

Uh, folks. The Lou Li at the goodwill games is a separate person altogether
from the Lu Li that won bars at Barcelona.

I know its confusing, but Lu Li has in fact retired.



Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 20:51:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: <***>
Subject: Correction

David notes:
| Uh, folks. The Lou Li at the goodwill games is a separate person altogether
| from the Lu Li that won bars at Barcelona.
| I know its confusing, but Lu Li has in fact retired.

Well, I'm confused about two things.  First of all, I didn't see
anyone say Lu/Luo/Lou Li is the Olympic champ...?  I searched all the
digests from Gymn since the beginning of the GG, and every time she is
mentioned, she's referred to as the "world champ on UB" -- and, in
fact, she of course *is* the reigning world champ on bars.

My second confusion is when one newswire will write her name as "Lu
Li", another will write "Luo Li", and David, who probably knows better
than any of them, writes "Lou Li".  But this is a moot point, as we've
discussed round and round on Gymn before about how various translation
methods will produce various spellings...



Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 17:42:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: <***>
Subject: GG: notes on Kochetkova

Robyn asked:
| down to .012) which I kind of doubt, but I don't know... but why would
| Kochetkova's score have changed too?  Or did someone press the wrong
| button on her routine too?

Well, I got the impression that part of the problem was that the wrong
button was pressed, but that the problem was also with the computers
themselves.  That's why I was so confused...



Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 14:55:42 EDT
From: ***
Subject: GG: say what??

>"She has been in every international meet she has
been invited to. "<

Shannon has *competed* (she's also been involved in two exhibition tours and
at least one other exhib. that I know of) in - since Barcelona - the '93
American Cup, the '93 Worlds, the '93 Tri-Meet, the '93 US Olympic Festival,
'93 Nationals, '94 American Cup (1 event), '94 Worlds, '94 Rom vs USA, and
'94 Goodwill Games.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Shannon hasn't been to anything except a worlds
outside of the US in ages. I *know* she was invited to the Toronto Int'l last
year. And yes in '92 she had planned on DTB nutthen couldn't due to age
restrictions. Last year, Strug went in her stead.

She has competed *very* little since Barcelona while she used to go to every
little Int'l meet she could which IMHO is a big part of what has made her
such an Int'l success. We, in teh US, tend to baby our kids and keep them out
of "small and insignificant" meets but those meets really build confidence
expirience and Int'l judging recognition. I mean how many championSovs do you
know that claim as their first title "The PRK Cup of Friendship?"

Goodwill Games is not a "little" meet which is why I said this may be too
much for Thompson. She should first be "broken in" internationally on things
like Aruther Gander, Belgium Gym Masters, Champions All, Jr. Int'l, Etc. Etc.

Competing against foreign gymnasts on your home turf doesn't prepare you for
foreign countries where no-one speaks you language, the equipment is strange,
the food is odd, and your Mom's not in the crowd.



Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 17:03:35 EDT
From: ***
Subject: GG: say what??

>This is from an AP wire story:

>Nunno: "Maybe Dortmund is not the place for her.  It is a team meet, not an
all-around. I don't want to hurt the U.S. team standings by pulling her out,
but it may be in her best interest.

Best interest?  Last time I checked, Shannon was the

Talk about selfishness.  If he really cared about her resting he would have
kept her out of Goodwill, but of course he couldn't do that because her
appearing there as the leader of the 'Nunno-ettes" (as Sherwin appropriately
dubbed them) served *his* best interest. 

I certainly hope Shannon is mature and determined enough to stand up to Steve
on this one.  After all, it is her career and life, not his.  If she isn't,
her absence would probably overshadow even her two World titles as the
benchmark of her career, and that would be unfortunate.

>Going into the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 she needs to be the
leader obviously

That's real leadership, deserting your team...



Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 18:50:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: <***>
Subject: GG: W, AA

Good thing we all know acronyms around here... so much easier to write
"GG: W, AA" than "Goodwill Games: Women's All-Around".  But then
again, I just wrote it and so have defeated the purpose of
abbreviating it in the first place.

Today's collage of news wire reports on the Goodwill Games...:

>From the AP...

First of all, a correction in the beam standings:

1, Miller, 9.875. 2, Oksana Fabrichnova, Russia, 9.800. 3, Webster,
9.725. 4 (tie), Kochetkova and Bikan, 9.650. 6, Piskun, 9.362. 7,
Angela Ghimpu, Romania, 9.175. 8, Martin, 9.162.

Miller: "I like a challenge. I like to rise to the challenge. I did at
this competition and I feel really good about that."

Nunno: "Shannon Miller proved she is the best gymnast in the world.
After yesterday, we had a little discussion and I told her, `You have
another chance. You can prove it by showing you are better in every
event. You have the opportunity to redeem yourself.' She did and she
walked away with a fistful of medals."

The AP's description of Miller's beam routine: "She started with a
front somersault to the bar [, ordered two full shots of whiskey,] and
ended with a full twisting back double somersault [must've been the
whiskey]. In between, she added a pair of reverse splits and had a
series of a back handsprings followed by two back aerials."
[Actually, gotta give credit to the AP for accurately describing a
full-in ... not very often that that happens.]

Miller: "I knew I had to come in and hit my routines. I tried to do my
best in both competitions. And it seems I got better as the days went
by. I got more used to the equipment. I knew it was going to be a

Miller: "It doesn't help to look back and think: What if? It was so
close. I don't look at it as a loss. I won a silver." [I wish I could
high-five her right now for those last two sentences.]

-Marianna Webster was originally listed in fifth for beam with a 9.625.
But Nunno appealed to the judges, saying her SV (Start Value) wasn't
high enough. The judges revised Webster's score to 9.725, moving her
up to third.

Nunno, re Webster's beam score: "The judges were absolutely wrong.
They admitted it and they changed it."

Webster, re her bronze: "It really means a lot to me. I think that
this kind of makes a name for me in the international scene."

Ted Turner, re glitches at the Goodwill Games in general (gymnastics
computer scoring isn't the only problem): "There's glitches
everywhere. There's glitches at the Olympics, too. ... When you put on
an event of this magnitude, you're going to have glitches."

OK, now on to the UPI...

-tickets for the event finals had the incorrect time on them, no doubt
reducing the already-low attendance figures. (The 19,000 seat arena
was "half-full at best" on Saturday and Sunday.)

-Miller's SV on beam was a 10; Fabrichnova's was a 9.9  Webster's
original SV was a 9.8, but after Nunno's appeal, it was a 9.9.

-UPI's description of Miller's music: "a bewitching Hungarian tune"
[well, it made *me* laugh...]

-UPI re Kochetkova's floor: "...inferior artistic input cost her a
third Goodwill Games gold... Kochetkova's foot-stomping display,
nonetheless, earned her 9.925 and the silver medal."  [Hmm, did they
not like her choreography, perchance?]

Miller: "For the floor, my coach (Steve Nunno) said to concentrate on
my landings -- its the landings that count... I like having to rise to
a challenge and I did in this competition, so I feel good about that."

-Miller was the only gymnast in vault finals to attempt two 10.0

-UPI describes Khorkina as having "comfortably" taken the gold on bars
with a 9.862; against Miller's 9.850?  I wonder what margin one needs
to win by to be considered having just edged the next competitor...

-UPI, re Miller on bars: "... she was again pipped for the top spot,
despite an original bars routine that won loud applause from the
half-full SKK arena."  ["pipped"?]

-Only Miller and Kochetkova qualified for all four apparatus finals.

-Each apparatus winner won $300.

-The Pod's gold on vault was UKR's first gold of the GG.

And finally, Reuters (my favorite wire)...

-Kochetkova "fell flat on her back during a practice vault" during
warmups and had to be helped away by her coach.

-Piskun had a "terrible dismount" [read: she fell] on her second
vault, which is why she finished 6th in that event.

-Miller "slipped" [I think that means "took a small step" in this
case] while dismounting from bars, which gave her a 9.850 (in
comparison to Khorkina's 9.862).

(Reuters and UPI of course have more info than that, but it all just
duplicates what AP already said...)


Date: Mon,  1 Aug 94 23:11:00 UTC
From: ***
Subject: Goodwill Games

Thought you all would be interested in reading these quotes.
>From the _St. Petersburg Press_, 8/1/94 (English language):
"Victorious team leader" Oleg Ostapenko [isn't he the UKR team coach?] said
that the team was "very pleased to be in such a fine position after the
first day.  This is a very important competition for us.  This team is very
young and this is a big international contest for them."
>From _New York Newsday_, 8/1/94:
Nunno feels that the reason that Miller didn't take the AA gold is because
of politics.  He said that 4 of the 6 judges were from Eastern European
countries.  "I feel like I got 'hometowned'.  If that's the way it is,
hopefully Atlanta will be when we take revenge."
In the same article, it mentions the fact that event officials made an error
and forgot to include Zhan Li and Luo Li in the AA draw.  Meduna and Romero
(ESP), both of whom placed lower than the 2 Chinese, appeared on the AA list
instead.  Bart Conner noticed the discrepancy and brought it to the
attention of ABC, who notified officials.
I've gained somewhat of a new respect for Miller for the way she handled
herself during the interview with Donna DeVarona (sp?).  And Miller
certainly is much more gracious in defeat than Nunno.


Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 19:48:32 BST
From: ***
Subject: Goodwill Games (Womens Event Finals)

Thanks for all those who showed appreciations to my previous
reports! It's nice to know that someone out there are enjoying my

Here are the womens apparatus finals details:

I nearly saw all 24 routines, I just missed a few vaults because
the channel were showing volleyball again. (Oh and thanks to the
USA womens volleyball team who beat Germany 3-0 or I would've missed
more gym!)


Liliya Pokopayeva won the vault with 9.831 but I missed her first
vault... Shannon Miller's first vault was again the familiar step
forward after the 1/2-twist Yurchenko. Her second also resulted in
a step (sideways), but I'm not sure what that vault was... She scored
9.824 and finished a close second. Bican's double-twisting Yurchenko
was awesome with stuck landing but scored less than Miller (OK, so
Bican's legs may be a little loose... just a little, mind you). Piskoun
must have been the favourite from this field but had a step forward on
her double-twist Yurchenko and two little steps back on her front 1 and
1/2 with 1/2 turn for only 9.693. Khorkina with her 'strange' vault
was third. Her two vaults were very similar, her first had a full-turn
before she hit the horse whereas in the second she didn't. (I think
it was pike 1 and 1/2 off?)

1. Liliya Podkopayeva        (UKR)  9.831
2. Shannon Miller            (USA)  9.824
3. Svetlana Khorkina         (RUS)  9.787
4. Ana Maria Bican           (ROM)  9.731
5. Oksana Chusovitina        (UZB)  9.706
6. Dina Kochetkova           (RUS)  9.693
6. Yelena Piskoun            (BLR)  9.693
8. Monica Martin             (ESP)  9.637

Uneven Bars

Kochetkova's bars had a good rhythm to it that I really like (no pauses
except maybe when she stood on the low bar). Piskoun did her usual
Deltchev and full-twist hop over the bar, and her double layout dismount
was better now. She always used to 'whip' it out but now she's more into
'floating' it out to land securely. Khorkina with her long lines was
bound to have an advantage on this piece. A good Gnauck release.
Boulakhova lost it in the transition from high bar to low and both feet
touched the floor, but she didn't lose her swing and recovered well
for a double front with half turn dismount. Chusovitina had put in
TWO full-twist hops over the top bar, and also had a good full-in back-out
dismount. Miller's bars was good as (almost) always.

1. Svetlana Khorkina         (RUS)  9.862 
2. Shannon Miller            (USA)  9.850
3. Dina Kochetkova           (RUS)  9.787
3. Yelena Piskoun            (BLR)  9.787
5. Oksana Chusovitina        (UZB)  9.775
6. Ana Maria Bican           (ROM)  9.712
7. Liliya Podkopayeva        (UKR)  9.600
8. Irina Boulakhova          (UKR)  9.162

(Piskoun and Kochetkova were tied for both pieces of apparatus!)


Nobody fell off which was a relief but there were some strange scores.
Ghimpu did front mount; flick-layout-flick; and then again flick-layout-
flick-layout; her triple (double?) twists dismount was the main point
pf deduction when she stepped well sideways for only 9.175. Miller's
routine I'm sure I don't have to describe it, she won it with 9.875.
Fabrichnova always only qualified for beam and she always did well
(normally): front mount; flick-layout-layout-layout; front somi;
full-in dismount. 9.800 and second place for her. Webster had a different
mount (sideways) but still had those 'oak tree' skills. Kochetkova's
beam was action packed: flick turning into a Korbut; flick-layout-layout;
full twisting flick; full-twist Korbut; and flick-flick-double back
dismount. Only 9.650. Piskoun's beam score I was really confused about.
She did have a big wobble on her acro series, which was flick to two feet,
flick to two feet and into layout to two feet. Otherwise her front mount
was good and flick into full twsiting back didn't fall off and a double
pike dismount. It only scored 9.362!

1. Shannon Miller            (USA)  9.875
2. Oksana Fabrichnova        (RUS)  9.800
3. Dina Kochetkova           (RUS)  9.650
3. Ana Maria Bican           (ROM)  9.650
5. Marianna Webster          (USA)  9.625
6. Yelena Piskoun            (BLR)  9.362
7. Angela Ghimpu             (ROM)  9.175
8. Monica Martin             (ESP)  9.162

Floor Exercise

Hmm... Miller won it with 9.937. I'm getting bored with this routine
although it had to be said that she did it very well (she's bound to
having done it for such a long time!). Kochetkova was still around there
with 9.925 (too high as well IMHO). Podkopayeva was also still around
the top with 9.887. Oksana Chusovitina nearly got back a medal with
a well done routine for 9.862. Jin Yu was the only Chinese who qualified
for any event final and I thought she did quite well too but only scored
9.537. Webster's wasn't too bad either but again only 9.362. Boulakhova
seemed to have used a new piece of music since the Europeans.

1. Shannon Miller            (USA)  9.937
2. Dina Kochetkova           (RUS)  9.925
3. Liliya Podkopayeva        (UKR)  9.887
4. Oksana Chusovitina        (UZB)  9.862
5. Svetlana Khorkina         (RUS)  9.737
6. Irina Boulakhova          (UKR)  9.587
7. Jin Yu                    (CHN)  9.537
8. Marianna Webster          (USA)  9.362

Some other observations that I noticed: the Romanians seem to be smiling
and chatting a lot. Bican especially had been grinning most of the time
which also made the 'depressed looking' Ghimpu smile. Loaies had been
hanging around them also laughing a lot. At the end Loaies and Ghimpu
were asking Miller and Webster to group together to get a photo taken.
That was really a nice shot with four of them together smiling at the

Kochetkova seemed to be drinking 7-Up a lot. I've seen her yesterday
and again today with a can in her hand.

I also saw the VT and UB medals ceremonies which was quite nice. When
Svetlana Khorkina realised she's won the gold on bars (that was before
they went up to the podium) she went round kissing everybody, in the
order of Piskoun, Kochetkova, Boulakhova, Bican and Miller! That was
another nice moment of the meet.

Can't think of anything else at the moment... so I'll sign off now
and hopefully there'll be more to come tomorrow, this time with the
rhythmic gymnastics!



Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 15:19:42 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Goodwill Women's EF Results

Since I assume Rachelle is working (silly girl) and AOL to internet seems to
be moving along at a decent pace today I'll send these results (from the AP).
I'll leave the rest to Rachelle. Toodles!

Women's gymnastics
 Individual apparatus
   1. Liliya Podkopayeva, Ukraine, 9.831 points - gold
   2. Shannon Miller, U.S., 9.824 - silver
   3. Svetlana Khorkina, Russia, 9.787 - bronze
   4. Ana Bican, Romania, 9.731
   5. Oksana Chusovitina, Uzbekistan, 9.706
   6. Dina Kochetkova, Russia, 9.693
   7. Yelena Piskun, Belarus, 9.693
   8. Monica Martin, Spain, 9.637
 Uneven bars
   1. Svetlana Khorkina, Russia, 9.862 - gold
   2. Shannon Miller, U.S., 9.850 - silver
   3. Yelena Piskun, Belarus, 9.787 - bronze
   4. Dina Kochetkova, Russia, 9.787
   5. Oksana Chusovitina, Uzbekistan
   6. Ana Bican, Romania, 9.712
   7. Liliya Podkopayeva, Ukraine, 9.600
   8. Irina Bulakhova, Ukraine, 9.162
   1. Shannon Miller, U.S., 9.875 - gold
   2. Oksana Fabrichnova, Russia, 9.800 - silver -
   3. Ana Bican, Romania, 9.650 - bronze
   4. Dina Kochetkova, Russia, 9.650
   5. Marianna Webster, U.S., 9.625
   6. Yelena Piskun, Belarus, 9.362
   7. Angela Ghimpu, Romania, 9.175
   8. Monica Martin, Spain, 9.162
 Floor excercise.
   1. Shannon Miller, U.S., 9.937 - gold
   2. Dina Kochetkova, Russia, 9.925 - silver
   3. Liliya Podkopayeva, Ukraine, 9.887
   4. Oksana Chusovitina, Uzbekistan, 9.862
   5. Svetlana Khorkina, Russia, 9.737
   6. Irina Bulakhova, Russia, 9.587
   7. Din Yuy, China, 9.537
   8. Marianna Webster, U.S., 9.362



Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 22:13:30 EDT
From: ***
Subject: I solved the BartConner mystery

As a novice P.I., I felt it my duty to figure out who "Bart" was.  I needed
to clear my name (and other members' names as well), especially since I
appear to be one of the "newer" members from AOL.  I will eventually send my
intro, once the traffic has slowed.

It turned out to be quite an easy case, actually, so I won't brag about my
investigative skills here--I know several of you out there can vouch for them
should I need any allies. :)

I merely located him online (something we can do at AOL), and started
casually shooting the breeze with him via aol's instant messaging.  He had no
idea that I was a Gymn member (I was using my other e-mail address, AgentX
CIA, so there was no reason anyone would have). 

The mystery man's name is Jon--he unsubscribed to the mailing list, [the
admin' should be able to vouch for that] and this was his "goodbye forever
guys! prank" letter.  He was a member of the list since about May or June,
where he simply printed up the letters and passed them onto someone who was
apparently interested but didn't have a computer. 

He unsubscribed because his internet address was changing (i.e. he moved to
AOL) and because his friend became disintersted.  I couldn't quite figure out
what he was saying, but I think that was the jist (sp?) of it.  Anyway, his
old e-mail address isn't valid any more [he did mention that].  But
"" is still up and running (based on my own experiment done
8/1/94.)  BTW, for those who don't know, AOL members are allowed 5 e-mail
addresses at a time, and can delete/change them at will, which is why this
was (and unfortunately still _is_) such an easy stunt to pull.

I might suggest, though, that you _not_ contact him.  He is gone (and has
probably forgotten all about us).  If he thinks he is getting any attention
here, he may well come back.   Any school teacher or parent should be able to
vouch for that!

Hope this clears everything up.

Also, SCT3226 writes:
>Is there anyone we can tell (like IG or Bart or something . . . 

I understand your frustration, but IMHO, Bart wouldn't care about a very
stupid and sarcastic letter.  He might, however, be somewhat upset at the
fact that he is being accused of using drugs and being a poor-quality
announcer (sarcastic or not) by serious and level-headed gymnastics
fans--some of the comments which I personally believe are going above and
beyond constructive criticism.  Well, enough on the soapbox for me!  I hate
controversies anyway--we have enough in the sport; let's not have any in the
mailing list!

Talk to y'all later!



Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 18:45:19 PDT
From: ***
Subject: Misc

>First of all, my figurative hat off to Shannon Miller, who didn't turn
around and slug Donna DeVarona during her rudely phrased questions,<

Ya know, you have to feel just a little sorry for ol' Donna. Talk about a
has-been that never was...  Fortunately I'm sure Shannon has enough poise and
self confidence to realize that the question was catty, and just let it roll

>But nearly every outfit the USOC DOES design makes me wretch.

Designed by committee, approved by committee. I have this image of a team of
old maids getting together, passing around the prozac bottle, and looking at
color swatches...

Of course, I've bitched and moaned a dozen times to Li Ning, who manufactures
the Chinese leos, that perhaps China should enter the 20th century with their
designs. I told him after the "shooting star" leos in barcelona that they had
taking patriotism and the flag just a tad too far. He shrugged and basically
said "hey, man. I don't design 'em, I just make 'em." Asia games uniforms are
supposed to be a bit nicer, though...

>Nunno absolutely refuses to acknowledge a great performance by another
competitor. <

Scene at the Nunno household:
FATHER NUNNO: Well, Stevie, what do you want to be when you grow up?
STEVE: Bela Karolyi!

>I seriously suspect that he really wants to parlay this into acting but
he comes off better on the tube, Hollywierd wont have him.<

After Hollywood's somewhat less than glorious experience with Mitch, I don't
think Bart stands a Snickers-bar's chance in the underworld of even being
considered for a part. He's so short, there are very few leading ladies who
could play opposite him...



Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 21:39:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: <***>
Subject: Misc

| >But nearly every outfit the USOC DOES design makes me wretch.
| Designed by committee, approved by committee. I have this image of a team of
| old maids getting together, passing around the prozac bottle, and looking at
| color swatches...

Well, the warm-ups are actually pretty cool, I think, usually.  (And
since the USOC is the organization mentioned, I assume we're talking
about Olympic, Pan Am, GG, or other multi-sporting event warmups.)

The leos worn by the USA gymnasts however, I think could maybe be a
little more exciting.  I do like the general tendency towards the
sporty type of look (though the artistic ex-Sov leos were always
awesome), but I just don't find the predominantly white designs too
exciting.  Those purple/pink leos with the silver diamond patches on
the arms were pretty jazzy, though I would have preferred a "normal"
color other than silver.

Reebok designs the USA National Team uniforms for the USGF (jerseys,
warmups, leos, etc).  I assume they also design the Olympic warmups
for the USOC.  Of course though, as David says, the design must be
approved by committee...



Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 19:39:03 EDT
From: <***>
Subject: names

     Thank you to Texx (I think it was Texx!) who clarified
that Bart and Kathy cannot hear the announcers in the arena and
pick up on the correct pronunciation of names that way. But I
still don't think that really "lets them off the hook." I mean, they
were hired as expert commentators, and I know that if *I* were
hired as an expert commentator, one of the very first things I'd
do is gather as much info on all the foreign gymnasts, including
how to pronounce their names right. That just seems so basic to
me. I know I don't have the slightest clue how to pronounce
most Chinese and many Romanian names (you know, those ones
with long strings of vowels all in a row), and if I were a
commentator, I wouldn't want to get on the air and make a fool
of myself by guessing at how to say them. Especially since it
just can't be that difficult to find out how to say them right.
After all, the teams usually have interpreters or the gymnasts
themselves speak some English. So just ask them! I don't know
- to me it just seems that that should be part of the expert
commentator's job. I mean, TBS's NON-GYMNASTICS-
EXPERT host did his research and got the names right, so why
couldn't Bart and Kathy do the same?
     Basically, I just think it's a shame that so many top
foreign gymnasts go through their entire careers having their
names mispronounced by EVERY American commentator, not
just Bart and Kathy. I honestly cannot think of a single
commentator who ever pronounced Boginskaya, Artemov or
Korolev right - and these are world and Olympic champions
we're talking about! Don't they deserve the common courtesy
and respect of having their names pronounced correctly? And
now if Dina Kochetkova should go on to have a brilliant career,
the precedent has already been set of mispronouncing her name.
That just bothers me. Especially since it didn't seem to always
be this way. When Nadia burst onto the scene, everyone was
mispronouncing "Comaneci," not realizing that "ci" was said
"ch." But when she scored her 10s in Montreal, I clearly
remember an interviewer asking her on the air how to correctly
pronounce her name, and most newspaper and magazine articles
about her included the pronunciation of "Comaneci" in brackets.
Now that showed respect for her, the respect she deserved as a
champion. Even if commentators did say her name slightly
wrong during her career, you rarely heard that final "i" being
pronounced again, and at least the sports journalists and
commentators made an effort. What bothers me is that I see NO
effort being made today, and that seems disrespectful to the
athletes, particularly the major title-holders. The only
mispronunciations I can catch are the Russian and Ukrainian
names, since I'm familiar with those languages, but I cringe
when I imagine how the Romanian, Chinese, etc. names are
probably also being butchered to death. I remember that I first
learned "Silivas" was pronounced "Silivash" when I read her
name in the Russian press, phonetically transliterated to convey
the right pronunciation. So the Russians are doing their
homework. Why can't the Americans? It just can't be that hard.



Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 19:25:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: <***>
Subject: names


|      Thank you to Texx (I think it was Texx!) who clarified
| that Bart and Kathy cannot hear the announcers in the arena and
| pick up on the correct pronunciation of names that way. But I

Just for the record, it was Mayland.

| What bothers me is that I see NO
| effort being made today, and that seems disrespectful to the
| athletes, particularly the major title-holders.

More ftr.  I don't know about this meet, but I do know that at USA
Gymnastics meets, someone in Public Relations will prepare a
pronunciation guide not only for the TV broadcasters but also for the
arena announcer.  Then, Becky Riti, the USGF's translator, will go
over the names with these people.

Two small personal notes.  One: while I can see how it would offend a
champion to have their name pronounced incorrectly by an announcer
from another country, I honestly think that if it were me, I would be
more amused than anything else.  (But then again, Sussan just
mispelled my name *again*, and I didn't exactly let that slip by...
<grin>.) Re reporters asking Comaneci how to pronounce her name, while
it certainly was at least partially a matter of respect for this great
champion -- I also think it was partially just curiousity.

The second note is that I really don't think it's at all easy to
pronounce foreign names.  I'll be talking with Becky and get
absolutely flustered trying to pronounce names at least partially
right.  She'll go over the names with me several times and I still
can't get it right.  And I've been exposed to lots of accents in my
childhood too, which is supposed to help.  It's just not that easy...

Anyways.  I think I've taken this pronuncation topic and pulled it too
far away from the topic of gymnastics... =)



Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 18:09:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***
Subject: names

>      Thank you to Texx (I think it was Texx!) who clarified
> that Bart and Kathy cannot hear the announcers in the arena and
> pick up on the correct pronunciation of names that way. But I
> still don't think that really "lets them off the hook." I mean, they
> were hired as expert commentators, and I know that if *I* were
> hired as an expert commentator, one of the very first things I'd
> do is gather as much info on all the foreign gymnasts, including
> how to pronounce their names right.

ACK ! I been misquoted !
No I said that Bart has a hard enough time staying up on guys gymn,
That it seems a little far fetched for him to knows girls gymn too !
That is to say he may be fuzzy on people in womens gymn.
Thats OK but he BETTER have the guys right.
Same for Cathy, cut her slack on guys gymn but she BETTER know the girls !
Each should be able to fill in the gaps in the others knowledge.

What I actually said was that the producers want them to look dumb.

Wayland said they cant hear the announcers.
True they can not hear the announcers in the hall though.
Course even THEY mangle names sometimes!

Blame the producers for the "twit" apearence of Bart & Cathy.

I see no reason they cant get a copy of each team roster in advance, and then
query each team on the right way to pronounce the names and write them
phonetically.  Should take a TV intern about a day to do.  Cash well spent in
the name of good reporting.

OK we are now ok here ?

I have an advantage here, besides being an accountant, Mom also does
research on dance and ethnic dress for the Folk Dance Federation of North Calif.

Ill throw in another tidbit.  Often you see a name with a ' over the c .
This is also pronounced "ch". I once looked at a fellow workers name and
asked him, isnt there a tickmark they left off your doorplate ?
He said "yes".  I said then your name is (phoneticallt here) "Burich"
and not "Burik" ?  He was flabbergasted.  In 10 years, no one had ever gotten
his name right.

Also discovered quite accidentally, my father reads romanian !
He has no idea how he does it other than the fact that it is latin based.
But he readds and translated for Mom all the time.  Pretty funny for a guy whos english.scottish/dutch...

Anyway, Im getting off trach here, but it takes little time to learn
pronounciations of names.  I still have trouble with southeast asian names.  I
still cant for the life of my pronounce the name Huyn yet.  I only learned a
week agpo to pronounce Nguyen correctly (pronounced 'wen')

But I try...


Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 21:37:00 EDT
From: ***
Subject: names

Just a short note to refute all this stuff about Bart and Kathy not being
able to hear the announcer in St. Pete. The mix they get in their headsets is
the same as the mix you get on your home TV.

They ABSOLUTELY heard the announcer. Either they chose to ignore her or their
"expert" told them to pronounce it another way.

But, if YOU heard it, they heard it.

And about pronounciation guides -- forget 'em. Get yourself a native speaker
and have them give you a good transliteration.

David Michaels


Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 23:01:13 EDT
From: <***>
Subject: names and EF

     Whoops. I sent that names post before TBS's coverage tonight. I was happy
to see that someone (thank you whoever you are) got the word to Kathy and Bart
about Kochetkova (although Bart had a couple of relapses, with the best one
having to be when he called her "Groshkova." Now where did that come from?!
Next lesson: KHOR-kina. By the way, was it my imagination or did she
mysteriously change leotards midway through the competition? That made me
wonder whether the EF were actually held on the same day in St. Pete. Because
of the time difference, they could have been on two different days and TBS
could still manage to air them in one night. I only wonder because of the leo
change and also because the men's seem to be on 2 days, not one.
     In the "I could have sworn I'd seen that before" category, the latest
issue of IG verified what I thought: that Khorkina and Kochetkova did their
full-twisting back handsprings on beam during the Brisbane Worlds, so contrary
to what Bart and Kathy kept saying, Goodwill Games was NOT the first
competition at which this skill was performed. I wonder what events Kathy and
Bart were watching when Dina and Svetlana were on beam in Brisbane?
     Steve Nunno definitely needs some lessons in humility. I give Shannon SO
much credit for her gracious attitude and respect for the performances of other
athletes, especially when her coach is such a poor example. Shannon gets the
gold for sportsmanship (Steve did NOT qualify in that event!). He is reminding
me more and more of Bela - very scary. Pulling her out of the Dortmund Worlds
would be a very Bela-like move. I too hope that Shannon will stand up to him
and compete in Germany. It seems like he, like Bela, will only enter his top
gymnasts (Shannon in this case) in meets where he knows that there's a chance
of ending up on the award stand. A medal for the US in Dortmund seems pretty
iffy, but I think that is a poor poor reason for not sending Shannon. First of
all, she can benefit from any and all int'l meets she's in before Atlanta,
regardless of whether she gets medals. And second, she is a great leader for
the US team and could help the other girls get used to high-level int'l
competition. It doesn't matter whether they win, only that they do their best.
That seems to be Shannon's attitude, and I sure wish Steve could learn from it.


Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 15:01:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***
Subject: Our Bart Impersonator

      Is there anyone we can tell (likeIG or Bart or something.. ) that this
idiot on aol is attempting (albeit not very seriously) to impersonate
him? Rachele, Robyn, anyone? I'm just very distressed about this idiot
interrupting our thoughtflow with his rude comments.
      After reading all 37 posts from last night, all I can say is that I
think it's time to get off the wrestling subtopic.
      Wasn't that Donna DeVarona giving the interview to Shannon, or am I on
drugs with bart and his impersonator?
      Mayland, thanks for your take on the technicalities of broadcasting.
      Y'all notice that in the women's AA in the Goodwill games, the reigning
AA champion has finished second?
      Oh - I would be very upset with Nunno if he pulled Shannon out of
Dortmund because she wouldn't be in an all-around comp. If she needs to rest,
get her out of qualifying for them, not the competition itself. 


Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 12:49:18 EDT
From: ***
Subject: True Story

To All:
  Two years ago, I invited my family up to the University of Florida to watch
their first women's gymnastics meet.
  Of course, vault was the first event, and I proceeded to yell "stick it"
very loudly.
  My dad politely grabbed my arm, then squoze it firmly and said, "I taught
you better manners than that."
   I laughed out loud, which, of course, made him even madder because he
thought I was taking him lightly. It took me a few minutes to explain that
"stick it" was not derogatory in gymnastics.
   And then, of course, I had to explain that saying a female gymnast's form
was good/bad wasn't sexist, either.
--- Ronald


Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 14:26:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***
Subject: UPI

> >-UPI *seems* to imply that after scor>ing errors were adjusted,
UPI ?!?!?!?!?!

Uh I thought as a part time meber of the press, I knew what was going on.
I though UPI was no longer around.
Sombody wanna clue me in here ?


End of gymn Digest