gymn Digest                 Wed,  1 Jun 94       Volume 2 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:
                       Chops horrifying weekend
                           Daniela Silivas
                           Gogean (7 msgs)
                             Gym tidbits
             Hilton Challenge - men's press conf (2 msgs)
              Hilton Challenge - press conference, girls
                Hilton Challenge-TV Schedule Change???
               Hilton Challenge trivia - Amanda Borden
                            Kathy Elbasani
                           men's gymnastics
                              Men's NCAA
                   Minimum Weight Limits  (3 msgs)
                  National High School Championships
                Rhythmic Europeans (The Rest) (3 msgs)
                          Trivia Answers #15
                         Trivia Questions #15
                       Trivia Questions Needed
                      USA v ROMANIA (men's comp)
          Xian Internationall Gymnastics Tournament Results

This is a digest of the mailing list. 


Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 16:41:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***
Subject: Chops horrifying weekend

This weekend I worked on one of our local science fiction conventions.
The first evening (Friday) I saw this interesting tee-shirt go past me
at the reception.  I followed it to read it.
"Welcome to the internet.  Now go home"
Then I read the badge pinned to it.
"William Westerfield"
I began to think.... (Lotsa smoke)
"Chops !" I yelled.
"Yeah! he said"
"I'm Texx from the list!" I explained.
It was great to meet him.  We saw each other several more times including the
internet parties.  He also helped me with a nasty terminal environment problem
with my UNIX version 7 system (real antique system last used in 1989 !)

What did this have to do with gymn ?

Well it was a blast to meet someone from the list personally.

Bill is a neat guy, a real blast.  He looks like a blonde Wierd Al Yankovik only

I never did get him to jopin me doing cartwheels down the halls in the middle of
the night.



Date: Tue, 31 May 94 12:25:05 EST
From: ***
Subject: Daniela Silivas

A brief article on Daniela appeared in the May 26th edition of The Atlanta
Journal and Constitution written by Barbara Ann Moore-

Daniela is coaching at the Hammond Recreation Center in north Fulton
County (Atlanta).  Her team is doing well, having had 2nd place finishes
in several meets.

She speaks of having mixed feelings about being on the other side of
competitions; admitting at 22 of the difficulties in staying on top
after a 14 year career in gymnastics (Daniela mentions leaving home at
11 to live in a dormitory and seeing her family 3 or 4 days out of the

Silivas is making personal appearances on behalf of the Atlanta Committee
for the Olympic Games.

Until my next "tidbit",



Date: Wed, 1 Jun 94 10:44:32 +1000
From: ***
Subject: Farewell

This is just a farewell message to all you gymners out there that I have
had the pleasure to correspond with over the last 2 years. Its my last day
at the university today, I'm broadening my horizons and going on leave
without pay to take up a sports administration job with the local squash
rackets association.  If I don't like it or they don't like me I should be
back on the air in November.  Until then, just a couple of personal

Clive :   Yes it was a penalty and go Man. U.
Anil :  The Aussies will rise to the occasion this summer now we have got rid of
             Border and a new era has dawned with Mark Taylor as our new cricket
Toby:  Being a gym mum will finally come to an end, mine will come quicker than
             yours, hang in there and just be there for Sara, she will come
thru it all a
             a strong person.
Nancy:  Great to talk to you when you were here, and hope your cats are well and

Robyn & Rachelle:  Great administrators and thanks for keeping us all on the
          straight and narrow.

I've widened my friendships greatly since being on this discussion group
and for that I thank you all.
If you're ever down under, give us a call.  Phone number is 06 - 2589444.
'Sleep is better than medicine'


Date: Sun, 29 May 94 23:18:42 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Gogean

Since the list seems to have quieted down temporarily, I thought it might be
a good time to bring up something that has been bothering me. 

There have been MANY comments regarding Gina Gogean, both here and elsewhere,
that severely criticize her lack of expression (as well as any joy in her
gymnastics).  In my estimation, these comments are valid, but it saddens me
that no one thinks to wonder if there is more going on here than just

As someone who has had clinical depression in the family, watching Gina
perform is frightening.  I don't know her personally, so I can't make a
judgement, but I will say I wouldn't be surprised to find that Gina is
*severely* depressed, and doing gymnastics at all only because she is
required to by the Romanian Federation. 

One thing I am wondering is if there is any provision for the FIG to step in
during a situation like this, or if they conciously avoid it?  Also,
precedents (other than Nadia) for this type of depression in a top-level

Could there be other reasons for her demeanor?




Date: Mon, 30 May 1994 00:41:49 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: Gogean

Mara writes:

   I don't know her personally, so I can't make a
   judgement, but I will say I wouldn't be surprised to find that Gina is
   *severely* depressed, and doing gymnastics at all only because she is
   required to by the Romanian Federation.

Before we set up a fund to get the girl some therapy, let's acknowledge
that people are often completely different in person than one might
surmise from seeing them on TV.  Especially never having heard them
talk.  Gogean is from a different country and has a totally different
set of experiences from us here in networld.  I wouldn't read too much
into her facial expression (or lack of ;^).

The gymnasts I've met (and, granted, I can't say I actually *know* any
of them) have been completely different in real life from the way I
expected them to be. 



Date: Mon, 30 May 94 14:59:40 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Gogean

>Before we set up a fund to get the girl some therapy, let's acknowledge
that people are often completely different in person than one might
surmise from seeing them on TV.

That's true, but did you see the description of her in the locker room from
Sherwin's friend?  Something's wrong. 



Date: Tue, 31 May 94 10:50:41 BST
From: ***
Subject: Gogean

I've got the Australian TV version of Worlds'94 and Nadia Comaneci
was the expert summariser in the tournament, and she said she talked
to Gogean's coach (didn't say who, but I suspect it was Octavian
Belu?) and he said that Gina on average says about 4 words per week.
I guess he was exaggerating (?) but he was emphasising the point that
Gina is an extremely shy and quiet girl. Unlike Milosovici who is more
talkative but when there's a stranger around she'll go dead quiet too.



Date: Tue, 31 May 94 13:17:04 EST
From: ***
Subject: Gogean


In an earlier private message I sprang the question as to whether
gymnastic's federations had a sports psychologist or better yet a
psychologist specializing in child/teen behavior to help ensure the
well being of gymnasts.  Gogean's behavior or lack there of, is definitely
a difficult one to analyse, since as someone already mentioned so little
is known of her personal life.  But from what I hear of training in
Romania (months away from family in a win at all costs environment; some-
thing many countries may be guilty of), a trained specialist might
help promote a healthy frame of mind.  Afterall, elite competition is a small
portion of a gymnast's life, and what happens as a child/teen will effect
the rest of a person's development in adulthood.



Date: Tue, 31 May 94 18:34:30 EDT
From: <***>
Subject: Gogean

I have to agree with Mara and wonder if there is something wrong with Gogean. I
know the Romanian coaches put A LOT of pressure on their gymnasts, and maybe
it's just too much for Gina. It's very possible that she's shy by nature, but
I'd say that speaking only 4-5 words a week goes a little beyond shy. Many
female gymnasts are shy (Shannon Miller, for one), but they at least show SOME
animation when they do well. When Gina won vault at Worlds in Brisbane, she
didn't even smile or show the slightest indication of happiness over what she
had achieved. On the award stand she looked like someone whose best friend had
just died, not the winner of a gold medal. It was rather disturbing. It led to
me to think about what people had been saying all week in Brisbane - that
Octavian was putting INCREDIBLE pressure on Lavinia and Gina during all the
training sessions. Lavinia was favored to win - you could tell that from day
one. The scores in qualifying were a good indication that the judges were being
very lenient with the Romanians, and even a local newspaper called Lavinia the
odds on favorite before the competition even started. I was literally stunned
when Shannon won, because all week it had seemed like a foregone conclusion
that Milo would be the gold medalist. I think that's the outcome Octavian
expected, and I tend to think he expected a silver or bronze for Gina. Now, I'm
not a big fan of the Romanian style of gymnastics, so was relieved at the
outcome, yet at the same time I couldn't help being afraid for Lavinia and
Gina. I caught myself thinking "Octavian's really going to give it to them
now." In watching the girls, their expressions seemed to convey not only
disappointment but also a bit of fear. Maybe I was imagining it, but that's the
impression I got. After the vault awards, I wondered if Gina's complete lack of
happiness over her success was because she had "failed" by not getting an AA
medal. I would be very curious to know how she reacted to her success at
Europeans - a penpal from England told me she won. Does anyone know?
     Connie had asked me earlier if the Soviets (and now ex-Soviets) had a team
psychologist. Not that I know of. They had a team doctor, who's now the Russian
team's doctor, and a massage specialist, but I never met anyone who said s/he
was the team psychologist. That doesn't mean there wasn't one, but I never met
or heard of the person if there was. But I think it would have been helpful.
Some of the Soviet coaches could be pretty brutal and unnecessarily cruel in
their coaching techniques. Has anyone seen the Soviet documentary "Are You
Going to the Ball?" Elvira Saadi is shown coaching a group of 4 girls
(including Tatiana Groshkova at age 13), and I was shocked at some of the
things she said to the girls. I also know from talking to some of the ex-Sovs
that they were sometimes slapped around or beaten if they didn't do well in
training, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if the Romanian system were the same, or
perhaps even worse, since they were usually always No. 2 behind the Soviets and
I know the coaches pushed them HARD to try to beat the Sovs. Maybe Gina has
been pushed a little too hard. She certainly does not seem to be motivated by a
love for the sport; she almost seems motivated by fear. In any case, as Mara
said, she seems like a very depressed person. I don't think I've seen her
smile, in or out of the gym (the other Romanians will usually smile and/or
speak outside of the gym). I don't know what we as individuals can do about
this, but maybe it would be a good idea for the host country of Worlds or the
Olympics to have a sports psychologist observe the training sessions and look
for signs of depression or abuse. If we fans can pick up on the signs,
certainly a specialist could. And since the gymnasts are routinely tested for
drugs, diuretics, etc. at major meets, why not try to at least somehow evaluate
their psychological well-being? If there are signs of abuse, I think the FIG
should be able to take sanctions against the coaches. These girls have long
lives ahead of them after they retire from gymnastics, and I've heard too many
stories about gymnasts (mainly East bloc) who are now very bitter about
gymnastics, would never dream of letting their own children participate in
top-level gymnastics, etc. That tells me something is wrong.


Date: Wed, 1 Jun 94 11:04:20 BST
From: ***
Subject: Gogean

Beth wrote:
> I would be very curious to know how she reacted to her success at
> Europeans - a penpal from England told me she won. Does anyone know?

>From what I saw on TV, during the AA competition itself she had a
couple of 'nearly smiles' before her routines. After she's finished
all her routines she didn't smile maybe because there were still
others to go after her although her position at that time was already
quite safe. The TV also showed a brief AA medals ceremony when she
walked to the rostrum, she had a tiny smile (tight-lipped with a
slight curve) but that wasn't natural. She just didn't look happy
at all. I have a feeling that she's trying to hide her joy for some

I remember though during the AA in Worlds'93 when I went to the
meet, it was after the medals ceremony when Shannon was having her
pictures taken (waving the flowers for the press photographers), at
that time Gina and Tatiana Lisenko were sitting on the floor area
just behind Shannon and they were chatting quite a lot during the
whole thing. Even later when the majority of the crowd had left and
there were only two gymnasts left in the podium: Shannon was being
interviewed on one side of the arena and Gina was standing in the
middle of the arena talking with some officials. Then some girls
on our side shouted together 'Gina!' and she turned and faced us
and flashed us a most brilliant of smiles with a big wave of the
hand (a teeth-showing smile!). I will never forget that moment
as it's one of the best moments of the meet. I hope she is not
smiling normally because she didn't want to show her feelings in
front of the cameras. Also in preliminaries BB in Worlds'93 after
she's finished a clean routine, she was walking off towards her BB
coach (a woman) with quite a nice big (teethy) smile too, she was
trying to hide that too but failing that time (it was a smile/dull/
smile/dull/smile sequence within 10 seconds). Of course having said
that that was a year ago there must've been added pressure now after
she got the silver in AA last year. I've also seen a photo of her
in the Worlds'93 party afterwards that she was 'dancing' with some
bloke (well actually she was standing still with some bloke trying
to twist off her arm) and she looked as though she was laughing
then. (Maybe 'laughing' was a bit of a strong word for her!)


- still a die-hard Gogean fan no matter what the others say -


Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 00:00:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: <***>
Subject: Gym tidbits

> May 21st issue of the Phoenix Gazette, byline: Jeff Metcalf
> "...when the NCAA kicks the chair out from under the sport after next year,
> death by strangling at the grass roots seems inevitable."

Not having made a great study of Men's Gymnastics (perhaps I should), I'd
say that I doubt the sport will die out, but I think that it does need
something to boost it's popularity and support, or it may.  Not to say
that it isn't popular, or supported, but if you compare the number of TV
viewers of a college level football game (I now shoot myself in the foot)
and a college gymnastics meet for men (should I shoot myself in the foot?)
I think you'll see part of the problem.  I don't think I can emphasize
this point enough (although you may) - the success of a sport often lies
in it's support starting at very low levels - local participation, kids
doing it while young with the encouragement of their parents.  In
Washington DC, there must be hundreds of Little Leagu or Soccer teams, all
very well publisized, and obviously highly supported.  Yet I can't say
that I've seen that level of publicity and support for the local
gymnastics clubs and teams.  Especially for the boy's portion of the

I don't know how one would go about making such a radical change, but I
think one does need to be made.  Especially with the young age needed in
the sport at this time - if you don't catch peopel who want to
participate, while they're young, then they may never see their
opportunities, may not consider it an option  (personal experience is
often a cause of remorse). 

You know, you'd think that, from my messages, my mind looks at things in a
set way ;).  It couldn't be that this topic is has been swimming
pleasently around in my head for the past week or three.  Ah well.  Maybe
the first step is for the change to start occuring at a low level - often
the propaganda different clubs release about their programs is orriented
on the target they are used to receiving, and the target they best
receive.  If more pictures of males participating were on TV, in
magazines, on the little pamphlets one picks up here and there, then maybe
that would make a difference.  Who knows.  It's certainly worth a try.


Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 02:13:36 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: Hilton Challenge - men's press conf

Well, better late than never!  It was a lively press conference,
special thanks to Ivan Ivankov's coach (and Rachele's good pal.
You should have seen the two of them yucking it up...)

The foreign gymnasts appear to refer to themselves in the third person
since they were talking through interpreters.

Gymn: How long has the Chinese team been here in Arizona training?

Cheng Liang:  Three days.

Gymn: Does the travel affect the team or do they recover from it?
Are they used to traveling so much?

CL: He thinks that this time he feels better than the last time he came. 
The last time he felt tired by the long wait.  But this time he feels happy.

Gymn: (to Scott Keswick) How do you feel about the results of this meet?

SK: Obviously we are very pleased.  We came in here hoping and almost
expecting to win this meet.  It was very important to us.  And, we
were in a little bit of a tough situation with Chainey being injured.
He could only do four events, so we knew we had to step it up. We knew
we had to do a job and I think we did a really great job.

Gymn:  Did Chainey injure himself during the meet or was it an injury that
happened during warmups or...

SK: I think it actually started at the World championships a few weeks ago.
He's gone through several MRI's and things like that.  I don't know exactly
what's wrong with it but he's got a plan he knows exactly what he can do.
He's got a good doctor working with him, so he'll be okay soon.

Gymn: How do you think you'll do at Dortmund?

SK: I think that, well the team hasn't been picked so we have to wait
for that but I think that for the first time in a long time we have a
lot of depth and that's a big plus for us.  If we get a good seven man
team out there I think we can do a great job and we're gearing towards
Atlanta. We want a medal in Atlanta.

Gymn: (A question about the compulsories)

SK: From what I've seen, we just did it very informally
yesterday, we're as good as anyone in compulsories right now I
think.  We started earlier than most people.  We got a real head
start on them.  We actually got a real bad draw for compulsories.
We're in the first rotation.  So that will be tough but if we go
out and do a really good job we can get in the last session in
optionals and then there's new life in finals.

Are you shooting for a medal?

SK: Oh yeah.  Definitely, definitely.

Gymn: What are your thoughts about the Goodwill games?

SK: Goodwill games?

Gymn: The team *has* been picked for that one. (laughter)

SK: That's a tough situation.  We have our USA championships about
2 1/2 weeks after the Goodwill games, so I'm going to be training
for the USA championships while I'm training for the Goodwill
games and while I'm at the Goodwill games. So we've got a good
team.  It's a mix.  It's a couple of the older guys and a couple
of the younger guys that we expect to step up and maybe be on the
Olympic team in '96 so it will be a good test for them and you
know it's hard to say with so many new Soviet Republics and it
being in Russia. I don't really have a placement goal but
personally I want to go out and hit six routines and  try to get
in the top three maybe.  That's my goal.

(In walk in Ivan Ivankov, an interpreter, and Ivan's coach, Victor Dolidov)

Coach: Hello everybody!  How are you?  Everything okay?

I'd like to ask Ivan how he felt about his performance today,
especially in the absence of Vitaly,  if he took that in
consideration and tried to perform better...

II: First of all Vitaly didn't compete because he has problem
with shoulder, but competition can be much better and stronger
if Vitaly was competing Ivan is much much better if Vitaly were
there because it's competition it's fight and usually when he
competes with Vitaly he performs much better , but today he
didn't compete so well but.. he won and he will try to make some
conclusion and try to make some good things from bad things and
next time he will compete much better.

Gymn: Is there an event that you are happiest with today? 

II: Pbars he feels that he did very well.  Before parallel bars he
was feeling that he needs to do well because he missed on vault
and it was very important for him to do good set... and also side
horse because it was last event in the competition.

Gymn: How many times have you been to the US before and what are
your impressions?  I know *you* like the food... (to coach -

II: It's his second time. First time it was Los Angeles. He likes
it very much it is his favorite country and now he is in sunny
Arizona. It is beautiful too, a lot of sun (laughter) He likes US.

Coach:  (Was translating above) And now me (laughter)

Gymn: What's your favorite American food?

Coach: Ivan has two coaches, me and Vladimir Votkin. Before time in
California Ivan flew together competes together with second coach, 
My good friend, Vladimir Votkin.  And now I am the one who flies to
Arizona.  My first time in United States. Before I stayed and worked
in Canada in Toronto for four months this year in '91 and now I look
and I think Canada and United States not so same.  I think US much
better. (laughter) Yes yes I very much like this, very nice people
every time people cheer every time they help me in hotel in
training in competition it is very good I very much like USA. Very
nice red, you see? (points to his sunburn - laughter)  This only
30 minutes in sun. In my country now maybe 15 maybe 17 degrees and
only in July maybe 22 25.  And now I have very nice time. Thank
you very very much.

(Interpreter points out he's talking about Celsius.)

You weren't in Australia. when did you find out about Ivan winning?

Coach: On this day in Australia yes Ivan competes together with other
coach, Vladimir Votkin and I stay home and on this day only competes
finish and Vladimir calls me, "Ivan first." Oh my god! (laughter)
and after in my home calls my good friend coach from Denmark and
after that from Norway from Sweden from United States.  Many many call
me and on this day I am very happy. I drink Russian vodka for Ivan,
"Ivan! Ivan!" (holds up fictitious glass - laughter)  Little! Only
little! (more laughter)

(Luan steps in to thank the press for attending)

Victor Dolidov: Thank you very much!  Good bye and see you later!

And that about does it.  I will post the girls' press conference

Yours in gymnastics,



Date: Sat, 28 May 94 12:38:25 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Hilton Challenge - men's press conf

Scott Keswick said:

>SK: From what I've seen, we just did it very informally
yesterday, we're as good as anyone in compulsories right now I
think.  We started earlier than most people.  We got a real head
start on them.  We actually got a real bad draw for compulsories.
>We're in the first rotation.

Does anyone know the complete draw, men and women?



Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 22:48:49 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: Hilton Challenge - press conference, girls

(In attendance: Amanda Borden, Dominique Dawes, Katie Teft, Kellee Davis,
Ye Linlin, Ye Linlin's coach Wang Kaishum, coach Kelli Hill, Kellee Davis'
coach Tim Rand, Katie Teft's coach John Geddert)

Amanda, you had to come  back strong after the balance beam It looked
like you really nailed your set.  Are you happy about that?

AB: Yeah. Sometimes it's hard after a disastrous routine.  (Amanda
fell of beam.) I didn't have the greatest beam routine but I did
finish strong, not only for myself but also for the team.

Is it easier when you're involved in team competition? Is it
easier to regroup?

AB: Um, sometimes. cause you know that even if you have one mistake
you can always help the team in other ways and make up for where you
messed up.

Gymn: That punch front seems to take its toll on a lot of gymnasts,
do you think that's one of the most difficult techniques to spot on

AB: Um, actually, it's not. I just was off in the routine. I usually
don't have any problems with it in the gym or in training. I just
kind of messed up.

I'd like to ask Kellee and Katie hoe they felt competing in their
first big international meet on home turf.  Was it any different
from competitions you've had before?

KD: No, it felt the same because I was in mixed pairs and it was also

KT: And I competed in (Italy?)

Linlin, how did you feel about your third place finish today?

YL: She is happy because it was good chance to play the good strong
American and Russian gymnastics teams.

Linlin, I'd like to ask her how she feels China is going to be
doing this coming year.  It was a young team that you brought
here.  How does she feel the team is shaping up?

YL: She hopes in the next championship China will get third place.
Of course it will take more practice and hard work to do a good job.

Dominique, did  you notice that it was pretty close going into the
final rotation between you and Elena?  Did you know that the scores
were pretty close?

DD: Yeah, I knew that they were really close.  They announced that
we were .05 away and and I knew that I had to (really hit) floor.

Did the pressure bother you at all?

Well, the pressure did get to me, but I guess beam helped me a
little bit. 

Was there any advantage going last?

DD: Um, I guess it was score wise, but it made me a lot more nervous
to wait.

You said it helped you?  Do you think to focus more?  How did the
pressure help?

DD: It gets my adrenalin flowing lots more.  And It gets me really
psyched up. to do the best that I can.

Shannon not competing this weekend do you think you felt the need
to pick up the torch for the team?

DD: Um, I felt it made me a little bit more of a team leader
because usually Shannon is in the competition and it felt like I
had to lead (the team a little bit more -  someone was rustling

Gymn: Does Ye Linlin have a second vault?

(Couldn't explain this well enough for Ye Linlin's coach to
understand what I was trying to say.)

(To Kelly Hill) Coach, from your standpoint could you ask anything
better than a 1-4-5 finish?

KH: Of course!  We could have gone 1-2-3!  (laughs) We are very
pleased that all of our athletes had a very good showing.

Gymn: Are you going to have time to do any more sightseeing before
you skip out of town?  (Okay, stupid question.  But if I were 16
and were traveling a lot I'd sure want to get out and about some.)

(General shaking of heads, smiles, from the athletes.)

Dominique what will be your next big meet?

DD: Um, I think my next big competition will be the USA
championships, but before that is the Classic in Tulsa.

You're not in the goodwill games. Are you happy or unhappy about

DD: I think the good will games would be really nice to go on but
it's too close to the championships and they're going to be traveling
really far and they'll probably be a little tired when they come

Dominique you didn't have much down time between Brisbane and here.
What did you think coming in to this meet?

DD: Well coming into this meet I really didn't feel very good about
myself because after Brisbane I took some time off and going into
this meet I didn't feel I was strong  enough.

I'd like to ask John and Tim how you prepared the girls so that
they weren't too overexcited or nervous.

TR: Well, I think that Kellee we were hoping that it would be just a
team.  It was her first experience with a team meet. so we kind of
prepared her in that type of format instead of worrying so much
about being in the all-around competition but more so adding to
the team score with the idea to go out and hit all four routines
training with that type of idea and therefore being and added
team member.  It was her first time and Katie's to be in that
type of arena situation. and so it was a good day for them.

In the team format how do you think they did?

TR: They did really well. The only thing I would have liked to have
seen is the four kids competing together you know that type of
situation so they could have benefited from the experience with
Dominique and Amanda and woked together as a unit they could
have done a draw together they could have done a line up and they
would have felt you know a little more of a team unit, but for
Kate and Kelee they were both very excited to be at this meet.

Gymn: do you think they did the two squads so that they could have had
just two events going on at a time?

TR: Yeah, it makes it an easier format to work and Kellee said last
year they did the same format so I think it's a way to equalize the
competitions putting all three teams in squads without necessarily
overloading one or anything thing like that so in a judging
situation it makes it a little bit easier and I think it's just
a good format for the meet.

(Ramonna steps in to thank the girls and the press.)



Date: Tue, 31 May 94 23:27:41 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Hilton Challenge-TV Schedule Change???

This week's TV Guide lists the Hilton (both Men and Women) as being part of
this Saturday's Wide World of Sports telecast at 4:30pm Eastern. 

I am under the impression that this is a change from the original scheduled
broadcast date of June 25th.



Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 08:55:16 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: Hilton Challenge trivia - Amanda Borden

Almost forgot about this.  I spoke to Amanda very briefly before
the men's meet.  She had these things to say about her college

She's still very excited about competing in the NCAA.

She has no idea where she'll be going.

Hasn't visited any colleges yet.  (She told me what date she
could start, but I didn't write it down.  It didn't seem like
it was the number one burning issue on her mind at the time,
which is understandable.)

When I asked her about places she would possibly like to go to
ShE mentioned four schools: Alabama, Georgia, Michigan, Stanford.
(What?  No CAL? ;^)



Date: Mon, 30 May 94 10:33:40 EDT
From: <***@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Kathy Elbasani


Sorry to clutter the list with this, but there is a woman named Kathy who keeps trying to join this list, but the mail address she
gives me bounces.  She says she has friends on the list -- if you know
her please let her know that K.Elbasani@GEIS.COM bounces, and ask her
to send me an alternate address if possible.



Date: Tue, 31 May 94 13:35:04 EST
From: ***
Subject: men's gymnastics


It does seem that the men's program at whatever level is rather passive
in exploiting itself (it comes down to that!).  Women's gymnastics
whether because of its appeal as "look at those little girls doing those
tricks!" or the bombastic nature of some (ahem) of its coaches, is
definitely the better advertised relative.

The personality of men's gymnastics tends to be "quieter", without the
sometime hyperactivity of women's gymnastics (or expectation of it).
If I want to relax and enjoy the pure technical brilliance without the
fanfare, I watch men.

Sometimes it's all a matter of expectation whether true or not, and with the
men there may be oooooooooooohs but rarely the oooooooooooooh gosh (jump
up and down, hug coach...etc.).  Its easier easier publicizing the women
much to the detriment of the men.

(the use of the word "women" in the above discussion is purely coincidental
 ;-) )


Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 00:11:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: <***>
Subject: Men's NCAA

> Based on Craig's and Connie's posts, I would say that Men's collegiate
> gymnastics is, to put it mildly, in very deep doo-doo.
> This said, I would further say that it falls upon USAG to pick up the slack
> (unless they would see US Men disappear from international competition
> altogether.)
> How should this be done? Clubs on college campuses? Augmenting current clubs?
> We need ideas NOW, or there will be nothing to pick up the slack if the
> resuscitation efforts on NCAA Mens Gymn fail...

I would go with the formation of more college supported clubs as well as
augmentation.  Increase the offering of men's gymnastics at all levels, as
well as encourage clubs which currently only offer women's gymnastics to
expand.  I'm not saying more emphasis should be placed on men's gymnastics
than womens, merely that our current situation should change.  Encourage
colleges to offer short summer programs to local (and not so local)
students interested in gymnastics, and make it clear that this is for boys
and girls.  If boys/men (whatever ;) arrive at college interested in
participating, I garuntee that there will be a rise in participation. 

If someone handed me a flyer that obviously advertised for men as well as
women in a summer camp (not as in far away, but as in a local, cheap, source),
I'm sure I could find a signifcant number of people from my high school to
participate.  People do what they know, if you make the change seem less
outright, they'll accept it more.  Who knows. 

One answer I mentioned in my previous message was the possibility of
increased coverage of men's gymnastic events - maybe it's time to create a
new event or competition per year (funded by some big cooperate sponsor,
of course ;) with lots of TV coverage.  TV has a huge affect on people's
lives, might was well use the tools we have available (despite how some of
us may despise it)


Date: Tue, 31 May 94 11:36:18 EDT
From: <***@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Minimum Weight Limits

Clive writes:
>Okay let me explain this, for years nutrionists
>have been telling us that for certain heights
>of people there are calculated body weights,
>your ideal body weight in other words, slimmers
>groups have been doing it for years, so why not apply
>the same theory to gymnastics, okay so the
>calculations would have to be altered to
>more reasonably represent an ideal weight
>for a gymnast but it could be done.

Yes, but this depends on more things than your weight, especially
your bone mass.  Measuring certain bones might be helpful in
determining the true ideals for any given gymnast, but even then, I
suspect that peoples bone densities actually differ somewhat. 

This type of rule concerns me a lot because it is very hard to
write a general rule of thumb that defines what weight is healthy
for everyone.  I know that as a child I was always well below the
ideal weight for my height, but my doctors always assured me and
my parents that I was not underweight, just very small-framed.  Each
case needs to be judged individually, and once you get into that, you
get into all kinds of politics. 

I wonder if there might be better measures of an athletes overall
health than weight.  (maybe % body fat, but that is very hard to
measure accurately).



Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 07:35:03 +1000
From: <***>
Subject: Minimum Weight Limits

>Clive writes:
>>Okay let me explain this, for years nutrionists
>>have been telling us that for certain heights
>>of people there are calculated body weights,

>I wonder if there might be better measures of an athletes overall
>health than weight.  (maybe % body fat, but that is very hard to
>measure accurately).

Body fat is easily measured, and a lot of gymnasts do have that done.  The
biggest problem with the weight of the body is -- I know this will sound
strange -- is the location that the person is being weighed.  Someone will
be heavier if they are weighed in a valley (closer to the center of the
earth than if they are weighed in the mountains.  It is a slight
difference, but a few ounces (anyone who knows wrestlers will agree) can
make the difference in competition.  So, body fat or mass is a much better
measure.  Actually mass can be very benefical because a doctor can
determine if you are carrying too much fat, or muscle for the bodies bone
structure.  Some men overdevelop their upperbodies - actually causing bone
probelms becuase the structure can't support it.  In that way Robyn is
right that if small framed then lighter weight.  Plus what do you do with
those with unreal metabolisms - banish them from the sport because they
can't eat enough.  I know some male gymnasts who can make football players
look like they don't eat.  Let's face it they burn an unbelievable number
of calories in a good workout - more than the average person eats in a day.

I believe the best we can do for a gymnast, anyone beginning or senior, is
to encourage them to eat, sleep, workout, see a doctor, but most
importantly to listen to their bodies.  If they crave something, then it is
the bodies way of saying it is in short supply of a nutrient.  Positive
attitude about life generally makes all the difference.  And active,
positive support from fans, family and friends (us) will probably be a good
thing in helping them with the positive attitude.




Date: Wed, 01 Jun 94 10:33:09 EDT
From: <***@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Minimum Weight Limits
To: gymn@MIT.EDU, Mayland Crosson <>

Mayland writes:
>Body fat is easily measured, and a lot of gymnasts do have that done. 

Measured or estimated?  A lot of people have their body fat estimated by
having fat caliper measurements taken of various parts of their bodies.
But my understanding was that having your body fat actually measured involved
total immersion in water.  I'm not sure how that works.



Date: Mon, 30 May 1994 09:42:50 -0400 (edt)
From: <***>
Subject: National High School Championships

Results of the National High School Gymnastics Coaches Association
National Championships May 27-28, 1994 U.S. Olympic Educational Center
University of Northern Michigan Marquette, Michigan

1.  160.15 Texas
2.  159.55 New York
3.  156.75 Illinois
4.  139.75 Virginia
5.  136.75 Massachusetts
6.  115.35 Maryland
7.  100.90 Wisconsin
8.   81.90 Nebraska

All Around
1.  Jim Koziol         NE    54.55
2T. Gabriel Edelman     NY    53.85
2T. Michael Pena TX    53.85
4.  John Schroeder      NY    53.65
5.  Michael Personick   VA    53.10
6.  Dan Young           MA    52.40
7.  Mark Kinch          IL    52.30
8.  Mike Emmons   TX    49.80

Floor Exercise
1.  Michael Pena TX    18.25
2T. Corey Adams   TX    18.05
3T. Mike Emmons   TX    18.05

Pommel Horse
1.  Jim Koziol          NE    19.35
2.  Gabriel Edelman     NY    19.20
3.  Michael Pen        TX    18.40

Still Rings
1.  Mike Rauschberger   IL    18.50
2.  Jim Koziol          NE    18.25
3T. Michael Personick   VA    18.10
3T. Alex Mrazek   IL    18.10

1.  Mike Emmons   TX    19.30
2.  Michael Pena TX    19.10
3.  Delvin Franklin     NY    18.85

Parallel Bars
1T. Gabriel Edelman     NY    18.25
1T. John Schroeder      NY    18.25
3T. Jon Nelson          TX    18.10
3T. Jim Koziol          NE    18.10

Horizontal Bar
1.  John Schroeder      NY    18.50
2.  John Carey         TX    18.05
3.  Mark Kinch          IL    18.00

1.  108.325 New York
2.  107.760 Connecticut
3.  107.425 Virginia
4.  106.625 Washington
5.  106.400 Texas
6.  104.900 Massachusetts
7.  104.500 California
8.  102.175 Indiana
9.  101.700 Pennsylvania
10. 101.200 Illinois
11.  96.100 Wisconsin
12.  94.000 Rhode Island
13.  91.000 Maryland
14.  64.600 Nebraska
15.  58.150 Arkansas

All Around
1.  Ashely Hutsell      CT    36.850
2.  Amy Roberts   CT    36.750
3.  Wendy Graves TX    36.300
4.  Dawn Kisselburgh    WA    36.075
5T. Lauren Schneider    NY    36.050
5T. Sarah Rood         MA    36.050
7.  Wendy Davis        VA    36.000
8T. Megan Byrnes NY    35.800
8T. Keri Raymond NY    35.800

1.  Ashley Hutsell      CT    18.775
2T. Dawn Kisselburgh    WA    18.700
2T. Shannon Swanson     IN    18.700

Uneven Bars
1.  Wendy Davis   VA    19.075
2T. Megan Byrnes NY    18.200
2T. Sarah Rood          NY    18.200

Balance Beam
1.  Liz Shymkiw   NY    18.675
2.  Amy Roberts   CT    18.550
3.  Kristin Bond PA    18.300

Floor Exercise
1.  Amy Roberts   CT    18.925
2.  Wendy Graves TX    18.700
3.  Ashley Hutsell      CT    18.475

This championship is run by the National High School Gymnastics
Coaches Association, and is open to high school seniors only, who competed
for their high schools during their season.  Each state with high school
programs can select a team (up to 7 men, up to 6 women), with 4 gymnasts
competing in each event.  Three scores count for team score.  As far as
championships go, this meet is one of the most enjoyable for the athletes.

There is a sense of camaderie that develops at this event, that I have not
seen at other championships, regardless of level.  Everyone sees this as a
culminating event of their high school competition, and it results in a
truly remarkable weekend for those involved.  Although high school
programs have tremendous obstacles in their way for survival, anyone who
has been to this meet can understand the necessity of keeping the high
school programs alive.

Ken Achiron


Date: Tue, 31 May 94 12:32:37 BST
From: ***
Subject: Rhythmic Europeans (The Rest)

(The Rest)


Well, I'll start with the scores since I guess they speak for themselves:

Team Results (Top 10):

 1. Ukraine 95.700      (Vitrichenko, Serebrianskaya, Shumskaya)
 2. Belarus 95.000      (Lukianenko, Gontar, Ogrizko)
 3. Bulgaria      94.350      (Petrova, Popova)
 4. Russia  94.200      (Zaripova, Rosliakova, Batyrchina)
 5. Greece  91.950      (Pangalou, Kekiliadou, Sinapidou)
 6. Italy   91.350      (Piertrosanti, Germini)
 7. Germany 91.275      (Brzeska, Gerdes)
 8. Hungary 90.150      (Szalay, Frater)
 9. France  89.850      (Serrano)
10. Israel  89.700      (Tokayev)

Top 10 qualifiers from Team into All-Around (Scores NOT carried forward):

 1. Elena Vitrichenko         (UKR) 29.250
 2. Ekaterina Serebrianskaya  (UKR) 29.100
 3. Maria Petrova       (BUL) 29.050
 4. Larissa Lukianenko        (BLR) 28.900
 5. Amina Zaripova            (RUS) 28.750
 6. Julia Rosliakova          (RUS) 28.400
 7. Diana Popova        (BUL) 28.350
 7. Olga Gontar               (BLR) 28.350
 9. Tatiana Ogrizko           (BLR) 28.300
10. Magdalena Brzeska         (GER) 28.000

Elena Vitrichenko looked very much improved from last year, interestingly
enough I think that she used her last year's Hoop music for this year's
Rope exercise. There is still something about her that I don't like though
(Must be that curly bit of hair that sticks to her forehead!)
Serebrianskaya was second after team, she didn't use her one piece white suit
for her Ball exercise in the Team event that caused so much stir last year,
but she did use it in the All-Around. Maria Petrova had a new Clubs routine
with Arabian style music that didn't appeal to the judges (unlike her
previous Suzanne Vega music routine) so she's down in third. Larissa
Lukianenko also had new music for her Ball which is now faster (and better
I think) but I think she went off the floor in her Ribbon exercise.

The Spanish are nowhere to be seen I'm afraid (they only put up the table
for top 10 so I don't know where they finish). I can confirm that Acedo and
Pascual have both retired. Cardenoso is now the apparent number one in Spain
but she can only score around the 9.3 mark.


Results (Top 16):

 1. Maria Petrova       (BUL) 39.075
 2. Elena Vitrichenko         (UKR) 39.050
 3. Amina Zaripova            (RUS) 39.025
 4. Ekaterina Serebrianskaya  (UKR) 39.000
 5. Larissa Lukianenko        (BLR) 38.325
 5. Olga Gontar               (BLR) 38.325
 7. Julia Rosliakova          (RUS) 38.175
 8. Diana Popova        (BUL) 38.050
 9. Irene Germini       (ITA) 37.750
10. Magdalena Bezeska         (GER) 37.500
11. Alina Stoica        (ROM) 37.375
12. Eva Serrano               (FRA) 37.350
13. Areti Sinapidou           (GRE) 37.100
14. Amaya Cardenoso           (ESP) 36.925
15. Katia Piertrosanti        (ITA) 36.875
16. Lenka Oulehlova           (CZE) 36.800

Petrova successfully defended her title. Although that was no surprise,
she had a tough tussle with Vitrichenko for it. Zaripova was again
third (same as Worlds'93). Lukianenko had a disaster in Clubs where
she scored only 9.250 (Don't know what happen, they didn't show it).
The highest score of the day comes from Vitrichenko's Hoop with 9.825.
In joint second highest were Zaripova's supple Ball exercise, and
Petrova's Clubs (the judges do like it after all), both scoring 9.800.




 1. Elena Vitrichenko         (UKR) 9.725
 2. Julia Rosliakova          (RUS) 9.600
 3. Diana Popova        (BUL) 9.550
 4. Olga Gontar               (BLR) 9.450
 5. Tatiana Ogrizko           (BLR) 9.350
 6. Amaya Cardenoso           (ESP) 9.325
 7. Areti Sinapidou           (GRE) 9.300
 8. Elena Shumskaya           (UKR) 9.150


 1. Elena Vitrichenko         (UKR) 9.750
 2. Maria Petrova       (BUL) 9.712
 3. Amina Zaripova            (RUS) 9.650
 4. Olga Gontar               (BLR) 9.600
 5. Diana Popova        (BUL) 9.550
 6. Julia Rosliakova          (RUS) 9.525
 7. Larissa Lukianenko        (BLR) 9.525
 8. Ekaterina Serebrianskaya  (UKR) 9.450


 1. Amina Zaripova            (RUS) 9.850
 1. Ekaterina Serebrianskaya  (UKR) 9.850
 3. Maria Petrova       (BUL) 9.800
 3. Larissa Lukianenko        (BLR) 9.800
 5. Julia Rosliakova          (RUS) 9.600
 5. Elena Vitrichenko         (UKR) 9.600
 7. Aret Sinapidou            (GRE) 9.425
 8. Katia Piertrosanti        (ITA) 9.350


 1. Amina Zaripova            (RUS) 9.825
 1. Larissa Lukianenko        (BLR) 9.825
 3. Ekaterina Serebrianskaya  (UKR) 9.800
 4. Maria Petrova       (BUL) 9.725
 5. Tatiana Ogrizko           (BLR) 9.675
 6. Magdalena Brzeska         (GER) 9.525
 7. Diana Popova        (BUL) 9.500
 8. Areti Sinapidou           (GRE) 9.400


 1. Elena Vitrichenko         (UKR) 9.775
 1. Ekaterina Serebrianskaya  (UKR) 9.775
 3. Amina Zaripova            (RUS) 9.700
 4. Maria Petrova       (BUL) 9.525
 5. Diana Popova        (BUL) 9.500
 6. Larissa Lukianenko        (BLR) 9.400
 7. Magdalena Brzeska         (GER) 9.287
 8. Ianina Batyrchina         (RUS) 9.275

Well, it's a day 'revenge' if you like as Vitrichenko claimed three
gold medals to Petrova's none. Maria Petrova should've won the Hoop
but for a drop of the apparatus in her flexion catch. The Ball exercise
had the highest scores with some lovely routines and on the other hand
the Rope scores were low due to the fact that there are still not many
top gymnasts doing the Rope exercise since the AA apparatus are Hoop,
Ball, Clubs and Ribbon. Larissa Lukianenko recovered from the previous
day's disaster on Clubs to get Gold in the apparatus final. There are
also many shared Gold medals around with Ball, Clubs and Ribbon title
all being shared. EuroSport only showed the top three or four routines
from each apparatus so I don't know what happened to the routines of
some of the top performers towards the end of the field.


-- still a big Lukianenko fan despite her loss of form --  :D


Date: Tue, 31 May 94 14:37:57 BST
From: ***
Subject: Rhythmic Europeans (The Rest)

>The Spanish are nowhere to be seen I'm afraid (they
only put up the table
>for top 10 so I don't know where they finish). I can
confirm that Acedo and
>Pascual have both retired. Cardenoso is now the
apparent number one in Spain
>but she can only score around the 9.3 mark.

D'ohh, there I was confident they hadnt retired too, oh well,
the Spanish team is now made of up of last years juniors
and basically they lack experience of competition,
apart from Cardenoso but then she was the year befores
junior so she isnt exactly incredibly experienced either.

>Maria Petrova had a new Clubs routine
>with Arabian style music that didn't
>appeal to the judges (unlike her
>previous Suzanne Vega music routine)

I thought it was more Meditaranean than Arabian,
I noticed alot of people were using Greek type
music, possibly to sway the judges:), who knows
it certainly got the crowd going.

Over what I saw there were only a couple of ill choiced
pieces of music which makes a change, finally
everyone seems to have stopped using Robin Hood as well
which is good.

Cardenoso used a track from the Terminator II soundtrack,
Magdelena Brzeska used the theme from Jaws although it
worked better than last year, I cant remember who it was
last year but someone used the Jaws theme straight from
the soundtrack and it was appaling but Brzeska had
found a remastered version with a slightly different
composition which worked better. There was also
a Russian Cossack type thing, the theme from Excalibur
also used on the Old Spice ads, and that bit of music
you normally associate with Cathedrals, organs, the
Hunch Back of Notre Dame and Hammer House
of Horror films and for some reason I always think
of a tv program called The Saint when I hear it.

Overall though compared to what I heard being used
at the NCAA regionals which was shown yesterday,
there was nothing wrong with any of the music.

>Petrova successfully defended her title. Although
that was no surprise,
>she had a tough tussle with Vitrichenko for it.
Zaripova was again
>third (same as Worlds'93).

Although not a surprise Petrova wasnt favourite
coming in to the competition. She had to work alot harder
to win the title this this year. Also since she had changed
all her routines to make them more difficult and because
her preparation had been very tough for this competition she
had her work cut out for her.

>Maria Petrova should've won the Hoop but for a drop of
>the apparatus in her flexion catch.

A drop is a drop, she did look very tired though by this
stage and the ribbon final was not her best by a long
shot she had to stop the routine so as to prevent the
ribbon from knotting up which is a bit of a mistake.

There was hardly anything shown of the Event finals
so its hard to work out what happened to anybody



Date: Tue, 31 May 94 15:51:04 BST
From: ***
Subject: Rhythmic Europeans (The Rest)

Hey Clive some very good descriptions relating to the music used.
I didn't really notice who use what music apart from that they
were all very pleasant to listen to. I do recall that part of
'Swan Lake' was used a couple of times.

Petrova and Lukianenko the two who dominated rhythmic in the past
year or so both found life much difficult this time round. Is
Lukianenko really 21-years-old? (That's what the commentator kept
saying) She hadn't been competing internationally that long as far
as I know? Only emerging after the Skaldina/Timoshenko era in
around 1991-92? And those bruises on her legs were dark as mud
(and there are quite a few of those). Still LURVVE her smile
just before the beginning of her Ribbon routine though. :)))))

I don't really like Petrova (I used to, but maybe lately she's
been winning everything that it's getting a bit boring) but I
do really love her Hoop, very dramatic and fast and difficult.
I guess I'm really neutral to her, as I am to probably all others.
I like Zaripova's Ball routine as she is so supple (people say
she's over-using her flexibility in that, but I like it).

Another point of note, Katia Piertrosanti of Italy was the only
one who did all four of her routines bare feet.

The Belarussian team was getting some stick as the others were
complaining that their gymnasts were too thin (Getting some
stick because they look like sticks! ...sorry, I'm sure this is
a serious matter...:> ) As Michelle my friend once said when she
saw some rhythmic gymnasts performing: 'I just want to go down
there and give them some $ to go next door to McDonalds to get
some burgers or something. They are SO thin.'



Date: Sun, 29 May 94 23:04:31 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Trivia Answers #15

The topic for this set is Chinese Gymnasts:

1.  Who tied Silivas for UB Gold at 1989 Worlds?  What was their score?

Fan Di, 10.0

2. At 1993 Worlds, this gymnast was on her way to a BB medal until she missed
a move and had to repeat it, causing her to go over time.  Name the gymnast
AND the move.

Li Li, Yang Bo jump

3.  Name the most successful (in terms of # of overall medals) male gymnast
at the 1984 Olympics.

Li Ning, 5(?) medals (David please verify)

4.   This woman, known for her beautifully clean double tucks on floor, was
the 1986 and 1990 Asian Games champ.

Chen Cuiting

5.  Which US woman was rescued (musically) by the Chinese accompianist when
her FX tapes failed?

Nancy Theis


Date: Sat, 28 May 94 12:38:32 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Trivia Questions #15

The topic for this set is Chinese Gymnasts.  It is shorter (and probably
easier) than usual, due to the lack of questions submitted:

1.  Who tied Silivas for UB Gold at 1989 Worlds?  What was their score?

2. At 1993 Worlds, this gymnast was on her way to a BB medal until she missed
a move and had to repeat it, causing her to go over time.  Name the gymnast
AND the move.

3.  Name the most successful (in terms of # of overall medals) male gymnast
at the 1984 Olympics.

4.   This woman, known for her beautifully clean double tucks on floor, was
the 1986 and 1990 Asian Games champ.

5.  Which US woman was rescued (musically) by the Chinese accompianist when
her FX tapes failed?

Answers will follow tommorrow.



Date: Tue, 31 May 94 21:52:30 EDT
From: ***
Subject: Trivia Questions Needed


The topic this time is US Dual Meets.  Yes, this includes tri-meets,
quad-meets, etc.  Any and all questions, please.



Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 07:40:33 +1000
From: <***>
Subject: USA v ROMANIA (men's comp)

        For all of you who remember Bill Roth (Temple) and were looking
forward to seeing him do the "best" G2 in Mass., I am sad to report that
his back has not healed enough (2 months ago he landed on the high bar on
his back - makes you wonder how high he was to land in the middle of his
back on high bar) to allow him to compete.  He has every intention of
rehabbing his way to the USA's and Olympic festival (reversed the order -

        At this time it has not yet been announced who will be taking his
place.  I know that Kip Simons is planning on going as a spectator and so
are a few other people, and if I get word as to who will be there in his
sted I will certainly post it.


        Rachele - I am sooooooooooooooooooo disappointed, but I will still
be there.


Date: Tue, 31 May 94 16:03:05 EST
From: ***
Subject: Xian Internationall Gymnastics Tournament Results

Men's and Women's results according to the Xinhua General Overseas News
Service (competition completed May 28):

Men's events-

Floor exercise: 1. Zhang Jinjing        9.375
                2. Li Bo                9.275
                3. Shen Jian            9.175

Pommel horse:   1. Li Bo                9.500
                2. Shen Jian            9.400
                3. Zhang Jinjing        9.375

Rings:          1. Wang Xun             9.500
                1. Valsang (Thailand)   9.500
                3. Zhang Jinjing        9.450

Horse vault:    1. Zhang Jinjing        9.357
                2. Wang Xun             9.343
                3. Shen Jian            9.330

P. Bars:        1. Shen Jian            9.600
                2. Li Bo                9.575
                3. Zhang Jinjing        9.525

H. Bars:        1. Zhang Jinjing        9.587
                2. Shen Jian            9.512
                3. Wang Xun             9.500

Women's Events-

Balance beam    1. Muo Huilan           9.875
                2. Liu Xuan             9.812
                3. Toropova Tana        9.375

Floor exercise  1. Nicole Kantek        9.625
                1. Ionela Loaies        9.625
                3. Liu Xuan             9.587

Vault           1. Toropova Tana        9.624
                2. Jenny Smith          9.356
                2. Shaveleva            9.356

Uneven bars     1. Liu Xuan             9.812
                2. Wang Xin             9.762
                3. Ionela Loaies        9.587

As you can see, the visiting women gymnasts had a better hand at breaking
the chinese juggernaut than the men had....and how about those australians!

Until my next tidbit,



End of gymn Digest